[Halifax] The Jade & Green Lantern (1595 Barrington) | Completed

[Northend Guy]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Thanks for the explanation, eastcoastal. It still seems a little crazy to me, as HVAC design seems pretty straightforward. CFM requirements are set by building codes, so ducting size and HVAC equipment spec should be pretty straightforward. The only tricky part of it could be routing, which one would think to be quite integral to the design, and thus done concurrently (yet somewhat quickly, like plug it into your CAD package and optimal routing is calculated and added to the dwg). However, I'm not in that industry, so I am obviously missing something.

But... yes... outlet sizing and colour are not too complicated, and in the context of the budget for an entire building, one would think the costs for making them appear a little nicer would be negligible. I'm sure there's a good reason, though...

I happen to be in that industry (not involved on this particular project)...and while undesirable, the 11th hour design for HVAC can be brought on by a few things, and happens not irregularly. Architectural changes including changes to cladding and the desire to have vaulted ceiling/minimize ceiling drops are common. These are often budget driven, and sometimes changed well into construction. Likewise, developers sometimes need to change what type of HVAC systems they want to install, usually based on budget or on changing technology. For example, they may change between having baseboard heat & an HRV and a minisplit to having a fully ducted heat pump to provide heat/cooling, among a few other permutations.

That said, penetration locations and finishes are generally coordinated with the architect. In the case of this building, your guess is as good as mine what happened here, but those louvers sure look paintable to me!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Northend Guy

I happen to be in that industry (not involved on this particular project)...and while undesirable, the 11th hour design for HVAC can be brought on by a few things, and happens not irregularly. Architectural changes including changes to cladding and the desire to have vaulted ceiling/minimize ceiling drops are common. These are often budget driven, and sometimes changed well into construction. Likewise, developers sometimes need to change what type of HVAC systems they want to install, usually based on budget or on changing technology. For example, they may change between having baseboard heat & an HRV and a minisplit to having a fully ducted heat pump to provide heat/cooling, among a few other permutations.

That said, penetration locations and finishes are generally coordinated with the architect. In the case of this building, your guess is as good as mine what happened here, but those louvers sure look paintable to me!

Thanks for the perspective! I'm understanding much more clearly now. Building construction is a huge undertaking with lots of people involved, and of course the ever-present budget issues. I'm learning that the process of putting together a large building such as this one is more fluid than I had imagined, and it sounds like changes can happen right up to the point where tenants move in. Crazy, but I suppose that's life in the world of construction - they are one-offs and thus massively different than the world of mass-production where all design work and drawings have to be fixed before production starts.

[Hali87]

It's hard to see very well in the daylight, but the "fins" light up now:

[img]Untitled by Hali87, on Flickr[/img]

[someone123]

Source

[OldDartmouthMark]

Nice shot. Thanks for sharing.

Presumably there has been some difficulties in getting the black polished granite cladding back in place? Seems like we have been looking at 3M vapour barrier for some time now.

[RoshanMcG]

[Hali87]

[mleblanc]

That could've be one of the most density populated corners in the city if the Roy didn't sit half empty for investments. Wish we saw some more family scale highrise development downtown.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by mleblanc

That could've be one of the most density populated corners in the city if the Roy didn't sit half empty for investments. Wish we saw some more family scale highrise development downtown.

It is interesting to me how the Roy storefronts are still empty but the Velo storefronts filled up seemingly before the buildings were even quite finished. I'm skeptical that the block on Gottingen across from Uniacke Square would have been viewed as a higher value retail opportunity than Barrington.

It's a bit mysterious why so many landlords seem to tolerate empty storefronts. The usual explanation is that they are waiting to sign a higher priced lease but I'm not sure that alone works out if you average out the additional future rents with $0 earned when the space is empty. Furthermore I think there is something to be said for a busy retail area, and it might be easier to let a lease expire and move upmarket with a new tenant when the street is filled with shops than when it's half empty.

I am not sure but it seems to me like Barrington improved a bit around 2015 or so (Urban Outfitters et al. being higher end tenants than what one might have expected in the 2000's) but since then has been relatively flat despite a big bump in population density downtown.

[Keith P.]

Barrington really is not much of a commercial street any longer. There are only so many cafes and boutiques it can support, especially given HRM's attempts to keep non-residents away from DT.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Nice shot looking down Barrington.

The Jade looks like it may be completed. How is the progress on the Green Lantern?

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Barrington really is not much of a commercial street any longer. There are only so many cafes and boutiques it can support, especially given HRM's attempts to keep non-residents away from DT.

Velo's commercial spaces seem to be mostly cafes and boutiques, except for the trendy barber. That stretch of Gottingen doesn't allow stopping in front of the Velo, let alone parking. I think the barrier with Barrington is that landlords may be asking for higher $$/sq. ft. based on their own perceptions that it's a retail/commercial "destination," while businesses don't feel like there's a compelling reason to be there.

I don't have anything to back this up, but my feeling is that once there is some critical mass in terms of businesses in storefronts along Barrington, we'll see a faster increase in other businesses joining them - success brings more success, or something similar. It might take a couple larger operations willing to pay the $$ being asked, or it may take landlords lowering the rent to generate interest from people willing to take the risk.

[OldDartmouthMark]

This.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

I think the barrier with Barrington is that landlords may be asking for higher $$/sq. ft. based on their own perceptions that it's a retail/commercial "destination," while businesses don't feel like there's a compelling reason to be there.

I think so too but I'm wondering why it's optimal for revenues, or why some landlords seem to make bad decisions. Taxes and losses they can write off? Or are some of these shops below cost and some landlords allow them just to make the area more desirable?

Some of these storefronts sit empty for an entire lease period. People wonder the same thing in a lot of cities. I have noticed it seems to vary based on landlord. For example Southwest does a relatively good job of filling up their buildings. Again I don't think Maple or the ones by Sackville Street are in special retail destinations nor was Bishop's Landing like that when it opened. It was an island in a dead zone with nice shops. It's clearly more complicated than there simply being fixed demand in different geographical locations and the shops moving in to the highest demand areas.

I don't have anything to back this up, but my feeling is that once there is some critical mass in terms of businesses in storefronts along Barrington, we'll see a faster increase in other businesses joining them - success brings more success, or something similar. It might take a couple larger operations willing to pay the $$ being asked, or it may take landlords lowering the rent to generate interest from people willing to take the risk.

I am not sure but I do think there were a lot of dead zones, there was a lot of construction disruption (this may continue with Press Block and Cogswell), and it takes a long time to see the eventual effect of new construction. The pandemic and economy may add further delays.

[coastalkid]

I think Barrington has become somewhat of a foodie destination in the city, with a lot of staple bar/restaurants breathing life into the street in recent years. I'm thinking of places like 2 Doors Down, Obladee, Stillwell, Yeah Yeahs, Julep, Highwayman, Barrington Steakhouse, Weird Harbour, etc. I know that RCR is also opening a large Italian restaurant in the former Attica space. Along with the smaller boutiques and destination retailer (Urban Outfitters), the street doesn't feel unhealthy at all to me.

I showed the retail space at the Roy to a client a couple years ago, and if my memory serves correctly, the Barrington space is massive and not demisable due to the unique layout (almost a T-Shape, like the building). Because of the layout, they were looking for a single tenant that required a very large footprint (I forget the exact square footage, and can't find the floorplan anymore). The footprint would be have been too large for a restaurant or most services, but could maybe work for a grocery store or a larger-scale retailer like H&M for example.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by coastalkid

I know that RCR is also opening a large Italian restaurant in the former Attica space. Along with the smaller boutiques and destination retailer (Urban Outfitters), the street doesn't feel unhealthy at all to me.

It doesn't seem like there are many old retail spaces that have a hard time finding tenants. They are mostly small. There are construction sites and then new spaces that seem to have been empty for a while.

The footprint would be have been too large for a restaurant or most services, but could maybe work for a grocery store or a larger-scale retailer like H&M for example.

I remember in the early 2000's when people would talk about bringing back the 60's heyday of Barrington which a lot of people back then remembered. A lot of the stores that they spoke about like Eaton's or Zellers no longer exist and entire shopping segments have declined while others have become more popular (restaurants).

There are always the big destination/"experience" stores but they are a small proportion of the total and in a Halifax-sized city they can only fill so much space.

Given the growing population I think downtown will attract more local shops/services and restaurants. As an example it could get another large-ish pharmacy like Shoppers. Not necessarily exciting but they will add to the density and mix.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by eastcoastal

Velo's commercial spaces seem to be mostly cafes and boutiques, except for the trendy barber. That stretch of Gottingen doesn't allow stopping in front of the Velo, let alone parking.

Well, Gottingen is a very different situation than Barrington. Gottingen was effectively a retail desert prior to Velo with very run-down retail storefronts for the most part. Velo at least offered new space that would make it worthwhile to invest in decent leaseholds for commercial tenants.

I think the barrier with Barrington is that landlords may be asking for higher $$/sq. ft. based on their own perceptions that it's a retail/commercial "destination," while businesses don't feel like there's a compelling reason to be there.

I don't have anything to back this up, but my feeling is that once there is some critical mass in terms of businesses in storefronts along Barrington, we'll see a faster increase in other businesses joining them - success brings more success, or something similar. It might take a couple larger operations willing to pay the $$ being asked, or it may take landlords lowering the rent to generate interest from people willing to take the risk.

It seems to me that there is a big disconnect between what commercial landlords think retail space on Barrington is worth versus what those spaces can actually return to a prospective tenant. The jury remains out on that question after the last 2 years with very few customers being in their DT offices during the day, taking away a big part of any potential market. Depending on how big the bounceback is, that will make or break many of those unoccupied sites. Look at the newish commercial spaces up the hill on Brunswick which have struggled for years now to prove themselves viable. DINK couples spending $3000/mo on a new DT condo or apartment may seem attractive to businesses, but there are only so many of them.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by coastalkid

... if my memory serves correctly, the Barrington space is massive and not demisable due to the unique layout (almost a T-Shape, like the building). Because of the layout, they were looking for a single tenant that required a very large footprint...

Yes - if we continue to wonder about the difference between street-level retail in the Velo on Gottingen and that on Barrington, I suppose the smaller sizes of the spaces on Gottingen are a benefit in that there are likely a greater number of smaller retail/commercial tenants willing to take a chance.

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

... It seems to me that there is a big disconnect between what commercial landlords think retail space on Barrington is worth versus what those spaces can actually return to a prospective tenant. The jury remains out on that question after the last 2 years with very few customers being in their DT offices during the day, taking away a big part of any potential market. Depending on how big the bounceback is, that will make or break many of those unoccupied sites. Look at the newish commercial spaces up the hill on Brunswick which have struggled for years now to prove themselves viable. DINK couples spending $3000/mo on a new DT condo or apartment may seem attractive to businesses, but there are only so many of them.

I agree - and I think this is more likely than the idea that parking/access downtown is more difficult than parking/access on Gottingen.

[midasmull]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's a bit mysterious why so many landlords seem to tolerate empty storefronts. The usual explanation is that they are waiting to sign a higher priced lease but I'm not sure that alone works out if you average out the additional future rents with $0 earned when the space is empty.

Foregone revenue is certainly a consideration but there's also the valuation standpoint - at a cap rate of 6.50%, each additional dollar of rent is worth $15.38 of value. Based on the CBRE listing, there is 6,850sf of retail so each $/sf rent is worth $105k - it is probably worth it for the developer to wait to get the top dollar. Where a building is predominantly residential, the retail component is typically viewed as bonus profit so they can afford to wait. There's also the non-financial aspect of wanting to have an attractive tenant, which would increase the cachet of the property and allow for increased residential rents.