Broadway Corridor Development Plan

[Migrant_Coconut]

No surprises there, Hardwick is hoping she can stall the Plan until she becomes mayor this fall (somehow) and vetoes it.

[idunno]

MDG said no to extending as well. She's was stalling the proceedings all night with ridiculous points of order and challenging various amendments with no basis. Very unprofessional and frustrating to see.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Welp, Broadway is now a two-lane street. I wish the future Council luck in figuring out how to run 24 trolleys an hour without bus bays.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Welp, Broadway is now a two-lane street. I wish the future Council luck in figuring out how to run 24 trolleys an hour without bus bays.

Not yet it isn't.

You can read the amendment debate here, on Erin Conner's twitter feed. Staff have to report back on how an AAA bike lane might be achieved. Translink are OK with 4 lanes of traffic, but would have to agree to anything less than that.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Not yet it isn't.

You can read the amendment debate here, on Erin Conner's twitter feed. Staff have to report back on how an AAA bike lane might be achieved. Translink are OK with 4 lanes of traffic, but would have to agree to anything less than that.

So I was reading this story and these two paragraphs were of special interest:

Broadway is a city-wide and regional-level arterial roadway, and one of the major routes leading to and from Vancouver General Hospital.

Furthermore, City staff emphasize that “Broadway is a designated truck route and an important goods movement corridor to commercial/industrial businesses in the Broadway Corridor.”

What would it look like for Broadway and 12 to split some of Broadway's workload? 12 also has direct highway access through Grandview, and it also runs all the way east-west across the city like Broadway.

If Broadway widened sidewalks, added bike lanes, and made the two vehicle lanes transit and emergency vehicles only, could 12 remove all curbside parking and become two vehicle lanes in each direction and take the other traffic? I understand 12 would likely need some significant upgrades for this.

[WarrenC12]

Personally I avoid Broadway for long East-West travel. But 12th has a problem at Fraser for one where it narrows significantly.

You'll never get buses off Broadway either. I'm not sure trying to put everything on one road will work. Somebody is bound to be pissed off.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Personally I avoid Broadway for long East-West travel. But 12th has a problem at Fraser for one where it narrows significantly.

You'll never get buses off Broadway either. I'm not sure trying to put everything on one road will work. Somebody is bound to be pissed off.

Not once have I been driving anywhere and thought, "Yes, West Broadway, that is the route I shall take. Damn the city, my car needs to go on this street." Even for destinations on West Broadway, I always tend to approach from either 12th or 4th/6th and park off-Broadway so to speak. Once the Broadway Skytrain extension is operational there'll be even less need to drive near that street. Broadway was once the main thoroughfare through Manhattan, but the NYC Metro runs underneath, and Times Square is now a plaza.



Source - Bloomberg

https://www.bloomberg.org/blog/follow-data-podcast-times-square-worlds-plaza/

Now I'm not saying our Broadway is anything like NYC's, but the history is the same, what was once a thoroughfare is more of a local destination.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Now I'm not saying our Broadway is anything like NYC's, but the history is the same, what was once a thoroughfare is more of a local destination.

The analogy would be Vancouver's Kingsway.
Broadway in NYC is a diagonal across a grid.

Vancouver's Broadway is part of the grid, though like others have mentioned, there are alternatives like West 12th and GNW/West 2nd/West 6th/West 4th.

[Migrant_Coconut]

West 12th is a four-lane road, and that's a capacity of about 37k vehicles daily; 4th, not counting parking, has the same. If they run the numbers and conclude that's enough for all of West and Central Broadway's essential traffic for the next fifty years,* then hey, go for it; I'll remain mildly skeptical until then.

*Point Grey has 13k residents, Kitsilano has 43k, Fairview 34k, Mount Pleasant 33k; that plus 50k from the Broadway Plan and 15k from Jericho gets me 188k. So it's theoretically possible if we can get driving down to less than 39% mode share, but not before.

[officedweller]

Yeah - traffic redistributes.
It's also like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I'd expect the residents along West 12th and along West 2nd/West 6th/West 4th would be up in arms - but who knows?

Downtown Granville north of the bridge is essentially a minor road with the traffic carried by Seymour and Howe.
(I'm not commenting on the quality of the resulting street life, just the conveyance of traffic volumes).

[jollyburger]

West 4th is already a living hell trying to drive through when it gets busy so it seems doubtful anyone would divert there.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah - traffic redistributes.
It's also like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I'd expect the residents along West 12th and along West 2nd/West 6th/West 4th would be up in arms - but who knows?

Downtown Granville north of the bridge is essentially a minor road with the traffic carried by Seymour and Howe.
(I'm not commenting on the quality of the resulting street life, just the conveyance of traffic volumes).

First of all, I am all for increasing pedestrian space. Broadway is an awful place to be most of the day due to traffic.

Secondly, while there is a need for cycling network to expand there are other mods of transportations (electric scooters and bikes) that need to be addressed. IMHO, they need to be using bike lanes as I do not like the idea of a scooter zooming by me at 20-25km/h with zero warning or zero sound.

I would think that this would make sense if they introduced car congestion charge across the region or at least CBD in order to reduce car traffic. As folks suggested without congestion charge this will just distribute the cars to other lesser streets.

Also what is the point of having a bikeway along 10th if you are adding one to Broadway? It's not that we have massive hoards of cyclists running out of space on the 10th.

[Migrant_Coconut]

See, there's a loud, angry vocal minority of maybe half a dozen bikers who feel like they're "second-class citizens" because they have to get off 10th, head down a block and then get off and walk like common bus passengers. Given the fact that we have actual literal and figurative second-class citizens, it's pretty much just white privilege.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

See, there's a loud, angry vocal minority of maybe half a dozen bikers who feel like they're "second-class citizens" because they have to get off 10th, head down a block and then get off and walk like common bus passengers. Given the fact that we have actual literal and figurative second-class citizens, it's pretty much just white privilege.

Yes, there's a loud vocal minority that make the rest of us look like assholes, but there's also a large and very quiet group who think biking is awesome, who want to bike more, and who think more bike infrastructure brings innumerable benefits.

I am totally comfortable riding on almost any street in mixed traffic. Protected bike lanes on Broadway would not be for me. They would be for people who are uncomfortable using even designated bikeways like 10th or painted bike lanes like West Georgia. A lot of adults want to bike more and a lot of kids aren't allowed to ride bikes on main streets. Protected bike lanes could fix that.

Also, as previously discussed, 10th sucks as a bikeway for reasons other than riding two extra blocks to go up and back to Broadway. The road is super narrow with parking on both sides. If you want to avoid getting "doored", you need to ride right down the middle of the street, making it difficult to pass oncoming vehicles or bikes. There are also stop lights or stop signs every block or two.

And finally, I don't think the bike lanes should take away from pedestrians. I do think taking a lane away from cars is no big deal. I don't have any studies to cite or quotes (I think downtown businesses have made a 180 on bike lanes because of their positive impact), but I seem to recall that businesses with proper bike lanes in front perform better and see more traffic than the same businesses before that infrastructure was built. This makes sense, as I imagine a lot of cars on Broadway are using it as a thoroughfare and not as a destination.

Making Broadway two vehicle lanes (busses only?) + bike lanes + wider sidewalks would change the street significantly. Maybe 4th, 12th, King Edward, etc. could absorb this traffic, maybe people would use transit instead, or maybe it would be a disaster. But it cannot be denied that Broadway would be a much more pleasant atmosphere for patios and walking and sitting on a bench if the vehicle traffic was directed elsewhere for the sake of bikes and busses.

[WarrenC12]

I must be in the minority that prefers riding on calmed streets like 10th and Ontario. They should continue to focus on these.

I don't get the complaint about "dooring" and "car interactions" on a street like 10th. What do you think Broadway will be like?!? Separated lanes will still have to deal with very busy intersections every hundred feet.

As for the "theoretical capacity" of West 4th, theory needs to meet reality. Vancouver in general has a problem with left hand turning. It should be banned 7-7 on all of these major roads, unless there's a separate lane. Between that and parallel parking, West 4th is a joke.

[seamusmcduff]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Yeah - traffic redistributes.
It's also like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
I'd expect the residents along West 12th and along West 2nd/West 6th/West 4th would be up in arms - but who knows?

Downtown Granville north of the bridge is essentially a minor road with the traffic carried by Seymour and Howe.
(I'm not commenting on the quality of the resulting street life, just the conveyance of traffic volumes).

As someone who lives along one of these roads, sorry why would I be upset about it? Increasing transportation options for people by making biking more comfortable for more people is better for everyone. These roads are already treated as basically urban highways as it is, even if they have a slight increase in traffic its not going to impact my daily life or wellbeing. They're still gonna be packed with cars, and there's still gonna be people flying down them at 80 km/hr, so if it means the changes to broadway allow more people to bike that's a win.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't get the complaint about "dooring" and "car interactions" on a street like 10th. What do you think Broadway will be like?!? Separated lanes will still have to deal with very busy intersections every hundred feet.

Without any parked cars on Broadway there would be no risk of dooring.

And only interacting with cars at controlled intersections with good visibility is very different than a four-way stop which everyone rolls through (yes, including bikes, don't yell at me) with piss poor visibility thanks to overgrown hedges and parked cars.

[whatnext]

This will of course kill Broadway as a place for destination stores. Witness how many (ie. none) stores are along Hornby that the general population makes a special trip to. I wonder where the outdoor/camping gear hub will migrate to? Not really any room for other stores to follow MEC to OV.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by whatnext

This will of course kill Broadway as a place for destination stores. Witness how many (ie. none) stores are along Hornby that the general population makes a special trip to. I wonder where the outdoor/camping gear hub will migrate to? Not really any room for other stores to follow MEC to OV.

There are vacant stores immediately opposite MEC, and there are other buildings planned within a block or two that will have retail. There's been no sign so far of any of the other outdoor stores up on Broadway following MEC to SEFC.

[jollyburger]

They should do a study on removing a bike lane and see how that affects businesses

I mean opening up a Canada Line station next to you can have a massive impact, all those bike lane studies seem more about messaging/theory shaping the data.