Spring Garden Streetscape

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You're welcome. It fascinates me, actually, how much the street has changed physically over 50+ years whereas its vibrancy hasn't changed much, from the appearance of these photos (with all the people out walking on a sunny Thursday in late March).

Here's another view from down the street (taken in front of the IGA store - 2 grocery stores on SGR in 1970!).

Spring Garden Road, west of Dresden Row by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

If you look up the street in this photo, you can see the IGA sign just to the left of the power pole:
Spring Garden Road entrance to Dominion Store parking lot by Halifax Municipal Archives, on Flickr

Yeah was wondering if it had the same vibrancy as it does now back in then. It does look to have a very similar vibe to today based on these pics.

[Keith P.]

Not quite the same as now. The pictures show a busy commercial street with men in business attire and matrons in fur coats, but no street people or beggars.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Not quite the same as now. The pictures show a busy commercial street with men in business attire and matrons in fur coats, but no street people or beggars.

Yeah it I would say its still more vibrant these days than it was back then that's for sure.

[MonctonRad]

I wonder when the panhandlers showed up. They've been there ever since the early 1980s at least.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I wonder when the panhandlers showed up. They've been there ever since the early 1980s at least.

Most of the panhandlers showed up after the Province started closing the NS Hospital in Dartmouth. The trend in the mid eighties was that community living was deemed to be a healthier experience for clients. No one seemed to ask what the General Public thought.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Yeah was wondering if it had the same vibrancy as it does now back in then. It does look to have a very similar vibe to today based on these pics.

It's always hard to know how busy a place really is from pictures. I have pictures of SGR with big crowds and you can take pictures early in the morning in the summer that make an area look completely dead.

I have not been back in a few years and don't really know what it's like now, but it seems like it might take a while to settle down after the mix of covid, streetscaping, and construction. It's not a very big area; the Mills site alone is a significant portion of the total.

Another difference is that there used to be almost nothing on the side streets whereas increasingly there is commercial on South Park Street and Clyde now.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

It's always hard to know how busy a place really is from pictures. I have pictures of SGR with big crowds and you can take pictures early in the morning in the summer that make an area look completely dead.

I have not been back in a few years and don't really know what it's like now, but it seems like it might take a while to settle down after the mix of covid, streetscaping, and construction. It's not a very big area; the Mills site alone is a significant portion of the total.

Another difference is that there used to be almost nothing on the side streets whereas increasingly there is commercial on South Park Street and Clyde now.

People's mileage will vary, but I generally find it very busy, and consistently so.

Instructive anecdote, maybe:

Last month I returned from a trip to Calgary, where I hadn't been in a few years. Spent a beautiful summer afternoon on 17th Avenue and in the Beltline. The whole big-city feel there has come along tremendously as well, thanks largely to a lot of new tower construction.

But in terms of actual busy-ness? The neighbourhood wasn't exactly thronged--a little dead in spots, medium density of pedestrians at best, etc. Basically the same as I recall from my last trip, and the trip before, and the one before, etc.

The following weekend I went to SGR. I was heading eastbound toward Robie and was struck all of a sudden by just how many people were out and about, how lively the neighbourhood was, and especially by how much livelier it felt than Calgary, a city three times as large. To be clear, this wasn't even a day with a cruise ship in town or anything that would explain it--it was just a regular Saturday downtown.

And that seems pretty standard. I don't think SGR is in any trouble at all.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

And that seems pretty standard. I don't think SGR is in any trouble at all.

I took part in a bike count on Tuesday - I would suggest anyone to just sit in Victoria Park and watch the movement of people around the area. Even the side streets are quite busy with people and bikes.

[someone123]

One problem I see with Spring Garden Road is how there isn't really a path to extend the main commercial area east or west. The municipal zoning enforces the current uses and does not encourage expansion around there. When I look on the map, for example, the sites just west of Cathedral Lane (rental buildings) are zoned for residential which only permits minor commercial uses. The border of "downtown Halifax" for zoning purposes is something somebody would have recognized in about 1980, while a lot of buildings of that vintage are now deemed too tall for this area.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to do something about the tower-in-park site at the Summer Street intersection. Historically people said this all looked nice and because the gardens were there it's good to have more garden-ish stuff nearby. But these things make the area low density and incoherent and IMO actually detract from the Public Gardens themselves as they make the boundaries fuzzier and are often built to a lower design quality. Even the gardens are fairly "impermeable" for pedestrians. I think it would be more appropriate to develop this as the heart of the city, Halifax's version of the lower parts of Central Park. I guess it's one of those ways that I wish people would just accept that they're living in a city, even in the South End.

[KMcK]

Originally Posted by someone123

One problem I see with Spring Garden Road is how there isn't really a path to extend the main commercial area east or west. The municipal zoning enforces the current uses and does not encourage expansion around there. When I look on the map, for example, the sites just west of Cathedral Lane (rental buildings) are zoned for residential which only permits minor commercial uses. The border of "downtown Halifax" for zoning purposes is something somebody would have recognized in about 1980, while a lot of buildings of that vintage are now deemed too tall for this area.

The blockbuster development with the Ghostbuster buildings to the east will make this non commercial stretch of SGR all the more obvious.

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder if it will ever be possible to do something about the tower-in-park site at the Summer Street intersection. Historically people said this all looked nice and because the gardens were there it's good to have more garden-ish stuff nearby. But these things make the area low density and incoherent and IMO actually detract from the Public Gardens themselves as they make the boundaries fuzzier and are often built to a lower design quality. Even the gardens are fairly "impermeable" for pedestrians. I think it would be more appropriate to develop this as the heart of the city, Halifax's version of the lower parts of Central Park. I guess it's one of those ways that I wish people would just accept that they're living in a city, even in the South End.

That building was originally proposed to front on SGR with the green area behind it but was moved back as a concession to those opposing it because of its proximity to the Public Gardens.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by KMcK

That building was originally proposed to front on SGR with the green area behind it but was moved back as a concession to those opposing it because of its proximity to the Public Gardens.

I think this is an area where planning norms changed, and today the norm would be a stepped down street wall (which could mean 0 additional shadow depending on the step down), although a lot of public feedback would be that it would be nice to put more greenspace there (since there will always be somebody to call for more).

The commercial use question is a bit different. Would you allow big stores/restaurants and patios there or other uses, or would it be a small shop or two with a lobby and maybe townhouses? I think the busier uses should be encouraged.

The shadow question is tricky because anytime you can show some shadows covering a park at any time of year (e.g. 4 pm winter solstice) some people will reach the conclusion that the building should obviously not be allowed. But if it's a narrow tower the shadow tends to pass by quickly; a squat box is not necessarily better. And in the summer when it matters most the shadows are shortest (SGR is quite wide here), and it's not the end of the world to have some shadows. Many cities have tall buildings next to major parks. For example in Boston, busy Tremont and Boylston Street have walls of tall buildings south of the Boston Common (which do not overshadow the park in August as shown in streetview).

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by atbw

I took part in a bike count on Tuesday - I would suggest anyone to just sit in Victoria Park and watch the movement of people around the area. Even the side streets are quite busy with people and bikes.

You missed that part about how MANY bikes you counted?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Yeah it I would say its still more vibrant these days than it was back then that's for sure.

I can't say what it was like in 1970, but the pics tend to show what seems like a reasonable amount of people for a weekday (I checked the 1970 calendar, and March 26 was a Thursday). There's still leftover snowbanks visible in some shots and the max temp that day (at the Citadel) was 8.3°C, so not necessarily the best weather to be outside for some.

I can say from the 1980s up, Spring Garden Road was always very busy and vibrant. Used to go there a lot and there were always people walking, hanging out, going to stores and bars, etc. Plus lots of young people "cruising" in their cars and motorcycles, etc. IMHO, it was no less vibrant than it is today.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

You missed that part about how MANY bikes you counted?

About 40 strictly on that section of South Park and Brenton, probably another half dozen scooters, and I'd say at least that many more bikes passing through the area but not within the counting zone ie, on side streets, going through Victoria Park or Cathedral Lane. Not bad given that intersection at Morris/University is a mess.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Plus lots of young people "cruising" in their cars and motorcycles, etc.

Well, by imperial edict, that won't be happening anymore.

Good sleuthing BTW.

[Empire]

The irony is, the planters were meant to beautify the streetscape but being exposed concrete they do just the opposite IMO. I see this as a significant lost opportunity for HRM to get it right. I somehow envision the planter as a receptacle for marigolds in desperate need of water with a leaning maple tree requiring pruning, complete with the plastic species tag still affixed to a branch with no leaves. Perhaps we will be surprised to find trees that flower in the spring such as cherry or dogwood.....

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Empire

The irony is, the planters were meant to beautify the streetscape but being exposed concrete they do just the opposite IMO. I see this as a significant lost opportunity for HRM to get it right. I somehow envision the planter as a receptacle for marigolds in desperate need of water with a leaning maple tree requiring pruning, complete with the plastic species tag still affixed to a branch with no leaves. Perhaps we will be surprised to find trees that flower in the spring such as cherry or dogwood.....

Some genius in the former Dartmouth City Council got some concrete planters installed on Portland St heading uphill from Alderney a few decades ago. I can't recall anything being planted in them in ages. They were constantly being damaged by sidewalk plows in the winter and infrequent attempts to beautify them with tiles or paint only made them look worse since they were never a priority for staff to maintain and the clientele on the street didn't help matters. I suspect these will be much the same.

[Empire]

Boston knows how to beautify a streetscape! I would advise HRM to do more research when doing a costly streetscape makeover.

I think the planters should be rebuilt.


Ref Google maps - 843 Boylston St. Boston, MA
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3486024,...2iHIMcMBVoHi_w6cIQ7Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Haliguy]

I'm generally liking how the Spring Garden streetscaping has turned out, big improvement! However, one complaint I would have are the planters, they do seem to be a bit over bearing and take a up a lot room.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Empire

Boston knows how to beautify a streetscape! I would advise HRM to do more research when doing a costly streetscape makeover.

I think the planters should be rebuilt.


Ref Google maps - 843 Boylston St. Boston, MA
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3486024,...2iHIMcMBVoHi_w6cIQ7Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The photo in question seems to refer to a private investment. The Prudential center in Boston has little to do with Civic intentions off the main sidewalk.