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View Poll Results: Electric Vehicle Ownership Poll
I own a BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) 7 21.88%
I own a PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) 2 6.25%
I own an HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle) 2 6.25%
I'm considering a BEV (Tesla, LEAF, Bolt, etc.) 6 18.75%
I'm considering a PHEV (Volt, etc.) 6 18.75%
I'm considering a HEV (Prius, etc.) 3 9.38%
I would only buy a non-electric gas or diesel car 3 9.38%
I don't want a car 4 12.50%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

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  #881  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2022, 6:37 PM
Kelnoz Kelnoz is offline
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But it is causing a pause among those EV owners who were a bit smug about the high cost of petrol these days. Suddenly they've been hit with a significant increase as well. The difference, is that petrol prices go up and down, and I doubt the Supercharger prices will drop.
And the average EV owners uses Superchargers how often? Needing to pay the same as if owning a very small ICE for road trips is a drop in the bucket when compared to the proportion done for dirt cheap on more local trips.
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  #882  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:32 PM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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And the average EV owners uses Superchargers how often? Needing to pay the same as if owning a very small ICE for road trips is a drop in the bucket when compared to the proportion done for dirt cheap on more local trips.
Define average.

If the move is to eliminating ICE, then ~33% of people here are candidates for regular Level 3 charging. Those are people living in rentals so have no control over charging capability at one's parking spot. That doesn't include condo owners who also have to work through their condo board to get access to power.

The latest example on FB is a renter in a secondary unit in a house and her landlord will not allow her to use 110v to charge her car. So she relies on Superchargers and gives the example the last 2 weeks and the difference it makes to her. While the landlord may lose at LTB, the argument by the landlord is the structure has 2 households on 100A service and the risk of constantly tripping breakers is too great. Of course, there are load sharing options available but that will take the LTB to force the landlord to allow (so in this case the Tesla owner is moving.)

You may think the average EV owner owns a dwelling with a driveway and possibly garage and control over their electrical panel.

But that is not what the green agendas are pushing for. Those agendas are pushing everyone to ICE and pushing greater density in housing, specifically MUH and additional units with single family homes.

Now, as you point out, long distance road trips make up a smaller amount of most people's driving, but will the GREEN agenda be happy with everyone renting ICE for their road trips? Because, I'll be honest, ICE on a road trip is far better than EV. Except for the cost (which is now going away) and for the environment.
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  #883  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 4:56 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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So regarding costing for superchargers or fast chargers.
https://www.hydroone.com/rates-and-billing/rates-and-charges/business

Tesla has to pay for electricity based off 90% of peak usage.

Basically, if one weekend, they are drawing 2 megawatts, they are paying for those 2 * 90% megawatts for the whole month. Even tho, 80% of the time, there is probably only 100kw being pulled.

One way to push these fast charging costs down is to spread the peak periods throughout the billing cycles.
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  #884  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2022, 1:54 AM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Here's another real-life example of an use of the car being more complicated in an EV.

My Xmas gift to the granddaughter was rounding up her and two of her friends and taking them to the movie of their choice. She's taking me up on that gift now because of March Break since no-one was going anywhere at Christmas. She lives in Leeds Grenville Lanark and her friends are scattered between towns. To/from the theatre in Ottawa will be at least 350km range, possibly 400. Doable (barely) in the summer, no way I'll be able to do it in the winter if there's extreme cold or driving conditions like tonight.

I hadn't even considered that, but my son had and he'll round up everyone to his place so it will only be a 300km day. If I charge to 100% I should make it with at least 10% range to spare.

To me, this is normal use for a car and I made the gift without considering that I don't own an ICE. With an EV it is not a no-brainer.

Not only do I have to consider range for that day, but I also had to consider the need for the car the next day since it will take 2 days to get back up to my normal charge level, unless I use a SC on the way home.
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  #885  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2022, 5:38 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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The only way EV ownership makes sense is to have access to Home Charging.

I've heard stories that Condos are charging upwards of $10k per charging station, which is absolutely ludicrous

The wrongful assumption people make is to require too much load.

A 3phase 208v100AMP feed could supply more than enough power to charge 20 cars in dedicated parking spots.

I personally have "sold" (ie Tesla referrals in the old days) over 12 Teslas and a couple of other EVs to people over the last couple of years.

The single biggest mistake people make (or assume) is over-estimating the required Energy. Tesla Level 2 chargers can go up to 80AMPs 240v. That's nuts! Then people set in trouble with ESA and need 200A upgrades that cost $5k+.
All you need to is set it to 30AMP (24A continuous), that's more that plenty.

For condos, you need load sharing technologies using smart "chargers" (hint they are not chargers, the "chargers" are actually in the car, these are simply supply power to the charger, commonly called Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment EVSE)
Line up a bank of smart variable EVSEs on a shared bank of 3PH 208V 100AMP and Bob's your uncle. Should cost no more than $2-3k per EVSE (assuming 3PH power available in building)
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  #886  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2022, 11:52 AM
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If you rely only on public chargers, it’s tough to own an EV

Krystyna Lagowski, Special to The Globe and Mail
Toronto
March 25, 2022 | Published 1 hour ago


With interest in electric vehicles rising ahead of Ottawa’s move to ban the sale of new gas-powered cars by 2035, we set out to see what it is like to live with an EV if you live in a multi-unit residential building and are entirely reliant on the public charging network. After one week with a 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5, charging turned out to be complicated and costly.

In 2014, I borrowed a couple of EVs, and was granted approval by my building’s management to plug them into the underground garage outlets. But there was a sump pump on one outlet, and a heater on the other, so I wound up blowing circuits. An EV needs a dedicated circuit, and there were none available. I was sternly told, “no more electric vehicles.”

Eight years later, a lot more EVs are on the road, and a quick glance at ChargeHub, an EV charger locating app, showed 864 Level 2 and Level 3 chargers within 15 kilometres of my home in downtown Toronto. Surely I could now drive an EV using just public chargers, right?

For one week, I drove the new affordable Ioniq 5, the Jessica Chastain of the EV set – smart, stylish and scooping up awards. Back in 2014, my Ford Focus EV had a puny 23 kilowatt-hour battery with about 150 kilometres of range, while the Ioniq 5 has a whopping 77.4 kilowatt-hour battery with 400 kilometres of range.

To prepare, I had spent hours reading and researching the industry, and talking to experts at Natural Resources Canada, Toronto Hydro, the non-profit Plug ‘n Drive, the public charging network Electrify Canada, and the Atmospheric Fund, a Toronto-based regional agency that advocates for low-carbon options.

No less than 12 apps were downloaded to my phone, including charging-locator apps such as ChargeHub and PlugShare, plus EV networks like Flo and ChargePoint. I set up accounts. I spent money.

Now it was time to hit the road. I visited friends in Thornhill and North York, Ont., who have EVs and home chargers. As they learned of my mission, eyebrows were raised. Was I sure I didn’t want to use their home charger? But no, that would be cheating.

Later in the week, I dropped in on Burlington buddies. Over yummy Hungarian goulash, the entire family, including Ivy the bull terrier, pleaded with me to charge at the local Canadian Tire. But I still had a 30-per-cent charge, enough to get home.

In the morning, I was down to 10 per cent and headed to a nearby underground parking lot where ChargeHub promised I’d find a Level 3 fast charger. Sure enough, there it was, looking like a big blue TARDIS. But it didn’t show up on my Flo app. In order to activate the charger, to get electricity into my vehicle, the charger has to be on the app, so that I can physically tap it and make it work. Flo’s Level 2 chargers showed up, but using those slower chargers would take 13 hours.

I tried calling the 1-800 number, but reception was spotty. So I ran up to the lobby, and called again, opting for the French line. I knew the wait time would be shorter, and all the representatives would be bilingual. Sure enough, I got through quickly and the rep told me to type the serial number of the fast charger into the Flo app search bar to activate it. This option had never come up in the hours I’d spent researching.

Back in the garage, my cellphone wouldn’t connect to the cellular network. A young man approached in an Impark uniform, asking if I needed to use his phone. Turns out the brand new building was not yet wired for my cellphone carrier. I plugged in the car, keyed in the serial number of the charger and the TARDIS shuddered into action with a loud thrum.

Incredibly, it took only an hour for the battery to reach an 85-per-cent charge. “That’s as long as it takes to get gas at Costco,” the Impark worker noted. He saw my rear window was covered in slush, as the Ioniq 5 lacks a rear wiper, and cleaned it with some Windex. Eventually, my car was clean and charged. However, it cost $20 to use the fast charger for an hour, plus $25 for parking.

On Saturday, I visited Yorkdale mall, notorious for its sprawling parkades. At the EV chargers in parkade G, all four spots were filled by EVs. In parkade E, eight of the 10 spots had EVs, but two spots were occupied by gas-powered internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. This is what’s called being ICEd. There is a $125 fine under the Ontario Highway Traffic Act for parking in an spot reserved for EV charging. Sadly, the Highway Traffic Act doesn’t apply to private property like Yorkdale. Still, I contacted Yorkdale security and a guard promised to put a sticker on the offending vehicle.

Back home, I contacted a nearby office building equipped with Level 2 chargers, where I might park overnight to charge. Using a Level 3 fast charger is mostly for emergencies, as it degrades the battery. So long-term parking is better for the EV, ideally overnight. But while parking was available, and the Level 2 chargers were free, it would still cost $350.02 a month for parking privileges.

So I could indeed have an EV, but it would cost me a pretty penny to charge. And it’s frustrating to find the chargers, as one app says one thing, and another says something else.

According to Ian Klesmer at the Atmospheric Fund, 46 per cent of Ontario residents are like me, and don’t live in single family homes. His fund has recently received $2-million from Natural Resources Canada to install about 300 chargers, and expects a big chunk of that will go toward installing chargers on residential streets as well as near multi-unit residential buildings (MURBs).

And according to Cara Clairman of Plug ‘n Drive, a retrofit for an older building like mine can be prohibitively expensive. Floors and walls need to be penetrated and electrical capacity needs to be upgraded. She noted that the Condominium Act in Ontario stipulates that if a condo owner requests their building install EV chargers, the condo board cannot just turn them down, but is required to conduct an assessment.

New MURBs often have EV charging “roughed in” for parking stalls, to ensure readiness. There is currently no law in Ontario to require this, but legislation exists in other jurisdictions, such as Vancouver.

So while I’d like to reduce my carbon footprint with an EV, it’s hardly a bargain. Although the public EV charging network is getting there, it’s a patchwork of providers. There’s too much technology to make it straightforward, and yet not enough to make it practical.

Almost half the population in Ontario doesn’t live in single family homes, and needs public EV charging. By 2030, 30 per cent of Canadian light-duty vehicle sales are mandated to be zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs). How can that happen if millions of people can’t charge their cars?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/ar...-public-chargers-its-tough-to-own-an-ev/
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  #887  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2022, 1:44 PM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Excellent article.

It reinforces how lucky I was to be able to pay an arm & leg to install a 110V outlet in my parking spot. But I got the last circuit on the basement electrical panel so no-one else in this building can own one.

It also reinforces me not using chargers when I'm out. That's being selfish. I did use the IKEA one for an hour while I ate lunch during the 323km Movie day (see post 884) because I needed the boost for peace of mind. I would have made it home with just under 10% without it. As it was, the car disengaged Sentry and told me to plug in ASAP because it was 'too low.' It was at 18%.

The following weekend we had two days in a row with long drives for a total of 450km, using 50% on day one (gaining back 27% overnight) and then 62% the following day, so the 35% we picked up at the charger near my son's allowed us to arrive home with more than the 13% we would have without it. Then we recharged to our normal 80% over the next few days.

Without that 110V outlet though, I wouldn't be able to own an EV.

Quote:
Sadly, the Highway Traffic Act doesn’t apply to private property like Yorkdale. Still, I contacted Yorkdale security and a guard promised to put a sticker on the offending vehicle.
TIL. This is still useful for the new street parking ones in Ottawa but I'm sad to learn the more numerous chargers on public property are not protected as well.

I am still working to encourage my landlord install an EV solution but this will require power being brought in from the road, not a simple add-on as this is an underpowered half century old building that was bleeding edge when built but underpowered for today's living with so many devices all needing power (here most plug the microwave into the stove outlet because there aren't enough outlets in the kitchen for additional appliances.) So we are constantly watching for funding from government for this.

I honestly don't understand how the goal of 2030 goal of 30% of vehicles being EV will happen. I don't think the production of vehicles is there (aside from Tesla and those aren't really affordable for the majority of people), I don't think the charging options will be there for those who live in rental accommodations (a rising % of households as home ownership becomes less and less affordable), and I have concerns about the electrical generation as well.
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  #888  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2022, 4:41 PM
Catenary Catenary is offline
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Excellent article.

TIL. This is still useful for the new street parking ones in Ottawa but I'm sad to learn the more numerous chargers on public property are not protected as well.
This isn't quite true - the private property owner can still set and enforce parking regulations under existing rules. They don't fall under the EV specific rules, but they/their parking enforcement contractor can write a bylaw ticket like they would to someone parked in a no parking zone.
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  #889  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2022, 4:57 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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Copy and paste from ottawa.ca

--
On-Street electric vehicle charging stations

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We’re excited to announce that 24 new on-street charging stations are now ready to use. The charging stations are at 12 locations in the urban area:

Adjacent to 6 Oak Street
113 Beechwood Avenue
122 Daly Avenue
170 Primrose Avenue
186 Main Street
190 Richmond Road
245 Crichton Street
301 Laurier Avenue East
930 Wellington Street West
283 Cyr Avenue
118 Cartier Street
Adjacent to 1755 Lycée Place


Each site is equipped with two level 2 chargers which provide 35 to 45 km per hour of charging. Users will be charged $2 per hour. Signage that identifies the spaces are for charging electric vehicles only is planned for spring once the ground has thawed.

The charging stations are part of the City’s efforts to support the uptake of electric vehicles in Ottawa.

This project was completed with support from the federal government under the Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Program(External link), and Envari(External link), an affiliate of Hydro Ottawa.
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  #890  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2022, 2:17 AM
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waterloowarrior waterloowarrior is offline
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  #891  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2022, 7:15 PM
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Looks like they will be very close to Ivy's Kemptville Chargers.
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  #892  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2022, 3:48 PM
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Ultra-low overnight electricity rates could save Ontario EV drivers up to $90 a year: Ontario Energy Board report
The Ontario Energy Board (OEB) released a report outlining in detail its proposal for ultra-low overnight electricity rates at 2.5 cents per kWh for Ontarians who want to opt-in when the rate structure is made available in

April 2023.
Published on
12 April 2022
AUTHOR
Emma Jarratt


A new Ontario Energy Board report recommends a 2.5 cent per kWh overnight rate for customers that opt-in — 70 per cent lower than the current off-peak rate — as the province looks for ways to manage grid load from EVs

The Ontario Energy Board (OEB) today released a report outlining in detail its proposal for ultra-low overnight electricity rates at 2.5 cents per kWh after studying the issue for nearly six months.

The report is the OEB’s response to a request by Ontario’s minister of energy, Todd Smith, who asked the regulator in November 2021 to provide options for how to implement an ultra-low overnight rate plan.

“Introducing the ultra-low overnight electricity rate will help our efforts to make life more affordable for Ontario families by keeping costs down and saving them up to $90 per year while reducing EV charging costs and supporting the historic investments in our province’s rapidly expanding EV manufacturing sector,” said Smith in a press release.

The new rate structure would be optional for utility customers, presenting a third energy billing option — in addition to current time-of-use and tiered pricing structures — for Ontarians to select. The ultra-low overnight rate scenario could reduce system revenue between $56,000 and $653,000 per month in the first year, depending on the volume of enrolment, projects the report; at the same time, it could yield an overall savings of up to $5.7 million in the first year for electricity systems by reducing so-called “capacity cost” that would otherwise be spent to meet higher peak demand.

In the high-adoption scenario as much as 40MW of peak demand reduction could be achieved in the first year. A typical residential customer that opts-in could see a two per cent reduction in their monthly bill, while those with EVs who charge at home could realize savings as high as 5 per cent, or about $90 a year, under one scenario

The report advises there would be no seasonal changes to the rate structure, as there is with the existing model, and the specific purpose of the scheme is to “further incent demand-shifting away from peak periods to lower-demand periods.”

“These changes will enable further EV adoption and provide relief for consumers and small businesses while utilizing the full capacity of Ontario’s clean energy grid, protecting the environment now and for future generations,” said David Piccini, minister of the environment, conservation and parks, in a press release.

Reaction largely positive

Since the Conservative government scrapped Ontario’s EV rebate in 2018, the province has been viewed as a laggard in EV adoption — an opinion that is born out by recent statistics. In 2021, battery electric vehicles made up just 3.3 per cent of all new vehicles registered in the province, while Canada’s overall new BEV registration rate was 5.6 per cent.

The government has been resolute in not bringing back the consumer purchase incentives and, instead, has looked at alternative ways to promote EVs in the province through manufacturing and electricity bill breaks.

While many industry experts remain adamant that a purchase incentive is a necessary catalyst to spur adoption, the reaction to a break on energy prices is largely positive.

“We strongly support the Province’s plan to implement an ultra-low electricity price overnight. This rate structure will not only make electric vehicles even more affordable to own and operate, but will also make better use of Ontario’s surplus of electricity at night, benefiting the electricity system as a whole,” said Plug’n Drive CEO, Cara Clairman.

Since the onset of the Russian invasion and war in Ukraine, which among other things sent gasoline prices skyrocketing, interest in electric vehicles in Canada has shot up. The OEB report comes at an opportune moment when more Canadians than ever are considering a switch away from combustion engine cars.

The prospect of charging at home for 2.5 cents per kWh overnight, compared to paying nearly $2 per litre at the pump is an exclamation point on the potential savings an EV can bring a driver.

“The [Electricity Distributors Association’s] research shows that the number of Ontarians who believe it is likely that someone in their household will buy an electric or plug-in vehicle in the next five years is 30 per cent – with a further 27 per cent seeing it as likely in the next five to 10 years,” said Teresa Sarkesian, president and CEO of the EDA.

“This plan empowers customers with more choice and control over their energy usage.”

Putting the plan into action

With the OEB’s report now submitted, the government will review the document and feedback from stakeholders gained through the now-closed proposal on the Environmental Registry of Ontario.

The government is targeting Aril 2023 to make the new pricing plan available to Ontarians and enrolment will be done on an opt-in basis potentially through utility providers, much as the existing two rate structure models are.

“Customers expect to be able to choose the electricity price plan that best fits their lifestyle, allows them to manage costs and incents their adoption of new energy technologies,” said Susanna Zagar, CEO of the OEB in press materials.

“We are pleased that the insights we have gained through our analysis might enable more choice and empower Ontarians.”

The OEB’s full report can be found here.
https://electricautonomy.ca/2022/04/12/ultra-low-electricity-rates-ontario/
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  #893  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2022, 4:33 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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A few of things:

I believe that this ‘third option’ is going to be revenue neutral, meaning that the drop in the overnight rate will be countered by an increase in the daytime rate – which is when most people use their non-discretionary electricity.

Secondly, it would make me far more interested in getting a large power storage bank (several Powerwall units, for example) so that I could charge it up at night, and use the power for my home during the day – thus, offsetting some of the day-time higher rate.

And, lastly, the complaint that EV-rebate incentives “just benefit the rich, who would buy their EV anyway” is not countered by giving a very low electricity rate which has the goal of charging those vehicles cheaply – while those who can’t afford an EV still have to pay the penalty for using gasoline.
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  #894  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2022, 4:46 PM
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From the full report, here is the "Summary of proposed design of the OETOU price plan" (year round):



And this is the "Definition of price ratios and price periods in the OETOU price plan"



Of course to take full advantage of this, you need to be able to charge at home on your meter. Having said that, everyone will benefit from more electricity being used when supply is greater than demand.
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  #895  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2022, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
A few of things:

I believe that this ‘third option’ is going to be revenue neutral, meaning that the drop in the overnight rate will be countered by an increase in the daytime rate – which is when most people use their non-discretionary electricity.
And by using more electricity when the market cost is significantly lower (sometimes even negative).

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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Secondly, it would make me far more interested in getting a large power storage bank (several Powerwall units, for example) so that I could charge it up at night, and use the power for my home during the day – thus, offsetting some of the day-time higher rate.
Agreed. I was thinking the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
And, lastly, the complaint that EV-rebate incentives “just benefit the rich, who would buy their EV anyway” is not countered by giving a very low electricity rate which has the goal of charging those vehicles cheaply – while those who can’t afford an EV still have to pay the penalty for using gasoline.
If this programme is revenue neutral, it doesn't cost the taxpayers anything, where as a rebate does.
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  #896  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2022, 6:35 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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Do apartment dwellers get these low rates? Or will we continue to pay 0.27 cents per a kWh (average on public chargers)?
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  #897  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2022, 6:50 PM
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Do apartment dwellers get these low rates? Or will we continue to pay 0.27 cents per a kWh (average on public chargers)?
Not likely unfortunately, unless you can convince the owners of public chargers to offer discounted overnight rates. Even then, they probably can't take advantage of this as they likely have to pay commercial electricity rates.
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  #898  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2022, 4:39 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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25 cents per kw/hr on peak?? That's just silly!

One year Hydro at my house, (2600sf single, 4 people, Central Air, Electric Stove & Dryer, One EV, Nat Gas heat and HW) - $1476.22 for a whole year

Hydro One BPY 123.24
Hydro One BPY 135.18
Hydro One BPY 115.8
Hydro One BPY 108.69
Hydro One BPY 99.49
Hydro One BPY 94.63
Hydro One BPY 125.28
Hydro One BPY 174.66
Hydro One BPY 164.33
Hydro One BPY 128.65
Hydro One BPY 90.69
Hydro One BPY 115.58

I'll stay on the existing plan, less risk especially in summer with AC

Last edited by Tesladom; Apr 14, 2022 at 4:49 PM.
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  #899  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2022, 3:21 PM
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I just noticed on PlugShare that 4 DCFC stations are being built at the Superstore on Eagleson in Kanata. This could be useful for those who can't charge at home. I am not sure what power the stations will be, but I figure something around 100 kW would be good, if you assume that people probably will spend about half an hour grocery shopping and consider that to charge an 80kWh battery from 20% to 80% would require 48kWh of electricity (at a lower power charger, the charging curve is quite flat until somewhere around 80%).

I still say we need to find a way to encourage home charging to be built out at rental units and condos, and build on street charging in areas without off street parking, but this will help fill in the gap.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/387342
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  #900  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2022, 6:44 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I just noticed on PlugShare that 4 DCFC stations are being built at the Superstore on Eagleson in Kanata. This could be useful for those who can't charge at home. I am not sure what power the stations will be, but I figure something around 100 kW would be good, if you assume that people probably will spend about half an hour grocery shopping and consider that to charge an 80kWh battery from 20% to 80% would require 48kWh of electricity (at a lower power charger, the charging curve is quite flat until somewhere around 80%).

I still say we need to find a way to encourage home charging to be built out at rental units and condos, and build on street charging in areas without off street parking, but this will help fill in the gap.

https://www.plugshare.com/location/387342
62.5kw or 125kw shared (if configured that way)
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