Residential Real Estate in your city

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

or, you just learn to live with it as your brain trains itself to tune it out, as most people do.

the L noise inside of our home is pretty much a non-factor for us after living with it for over 4 years now, but out on our back deck & patio, that's where it's so LOUD and in your face that there's absolutely no way to "tune it out".

and you can't soundproof the "outside".

I mean, I get that you can "tune it out", but not everyone can. In addition, there may be some long-term hearing damage that you're not consciously aware of as you "tune it out" (especially if your room has a wall facing the tracks).

You can't soundproof the outside, sure. But you live indoors. Humans have lived indoors for ages because that's one of the keys to our survival. By that token, why not just keep the walls open and let in the cold and rain, since you can't weatherproof the outside? Dumb reasoning.

Anyway, my advice is for indoors only for those who can't stand the train noise and who are interested in preserving their long-term hearing.

Old double-hung windows are especially susceptible to outside noises. One solution is to purchase indoor single-pane inserts that go over the entire window opening. The upside is noise and draft reduction, while allowing light to come into your home. The downside is that you can't open your windows with the inserts in place.

https://indowwindows.com/solutions/window-noise-reduction/

But if your windows are especially old and in need of replacement, my suggestion for a replacement is to avoid any sliding windows (double hung, horizontal sliders). By their inherent design, they can't seal out air or sound very well. My suggestion is a compression-seal window, like good casement, projected, or tilt & turn windows. They will seal out noise far better than any sliding window could.

The window company I worked for even made an acoustical window specifically for high-noise environments (mainly around train tracks). It basically consisted of two layers casement windows, with the outside casement opening outside and the inside casement opening inside. But that's a bit of overkill for small residential buildings, but it was a consideration for larger residential buildings.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dchan

In addition, there may be some long-term hearing damage that you're not consciously aware of as you "tune it out".

no, inside our home the sound is nowhere near loud enough to cause long-term hearing damage.

thank the lord for 3-wythe brick exterior wall construction on chicago's vintage flat buildings.

all of that substantial clay mass eats A LOT of sound.

Originally Posted by dchan

You can't soundproof the outside, sure. But you live indoors.

sure, we spend a lot of time living in the indoor part of our home, but 99.9% of the L's noise impact on us is when we're outside on our back deck and patio, and there's nothing that can be done about the noise out there. it just is what it is.

and since most people like spending some amount time outside in a yard or on a balcony/deck/patio/whatever, there is a significant percentage of people who would look at our condo and just say "NO WAY! total deal-killer. it's way too effing close to the L; I could never deal with all of that train noise when i'm just trying to relax outside in my back yard".

[sopas ej]

Over in my neck of the woods... I think this is a nice ADU.

From the Los Angeles Times:

How an aging Tudor’s ADU reunited a family and brought them closer together


Michael Cosentino and Rion Nakaya on a communal deck that serves as a bridge between their house and a new ADU.(Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times )

BY LISA BOONESTAFF WRITER
MAY 18, 2022 5 AM PT

Eight years ago, Rion Nakaya was living in Oakland with husband Michael Cosentino and their two children when her mother, Maggie, lost her partner of 37 years.

Like many Gen Xers, Rion, 47, faced a familiar challenge from 400 miles away: trying to monitor the welfare of a parent who is mobile and comfortable at home but on a fixed income and overwhelmed by the demands of a 90-year-old house.

When the maintenance on the 1926 Tudor in South Pasadena became too much for Maggie, who is now 69, the couple got serious about moving her to the Bay Area in 2016.

“We wanted to be closer to my mom and I initially thought she could move up here,” says Rion, a digital producer and founder and editor of the Kid Should See This, a free educational video resource for educators and families.

“My goal was to be near her and have the kids get to know her.”


Michael Cosentino and Rion Nakaya's newly renovated 90+ year old South Pasadena residence. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

For more than a year, the couple looked for an affordable rental for Maggie that was within walking distance of their Oakland rental. They also looked for a property in the East Bay that could house them all. But amid the rise in multigenerational living — a recent Pew Research Center study found 60 million Americans, or four times as many as in 1971, live in multigenerational housing — and skyrocketing real estate prices, the family decided that it made more sense to move to South Pasadena and renovate Rion’s childhood home.

“I was making more money and yet it was becoming harder to live,” Michael says of the challenges of buying a home in California. “We heard stories about people showing up with tech money and buying homes for cash.”


The garage-turned-ADU faces away from the main house, with a private entrance on the side.(Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

For Nakaya and Cosentino, the question for the South Pasadena home wasn’t just about remodeling the kitchen and updating the HVAC, but about how three generations could live comfortably together while respecting Maggie’s need for privacy and independence.

The answer came in transforming the detached garage into a 550-square-foot accessory dwelling unit, otherwise known as an ADU or granny flat, for Maggie.

The main house, which had degenerated over the years following deferred maintenance, would also need a full update, including of a master bedroom addition that was in disrepair, the exterior stucco, the roof, water-damaged siding and worn interiors.

After seeing the work of Northern California-based Medium Plenty in Oakland, Cosentino, a senior producer at KPCC, and Nakaya reached out to the firm’s architects Gretchen Krebs and Ian Read for help renovating the property.

The architects, who are married, understood the couple’s appreciation for midcentury modern architecture and Scandinavian and Japanese design as well as their wish to create two distinctly different homes for three generations.


Rion Nakaya and Michael Cosentino moved from the Bay Area to be closer to Rion’s mom. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

“We’ve been thinking about this a lot too,” Read says of aging-in-place concerns. “Our parents are in different states of health and economics. We understood the need to create enough space so that people have autonomy between them as well as an area where they can join communally.”

But the renovation wouldn’t be easy. Because the house is located in a historic district of South Pasadena, the architects were required to preserve the qualities of the single-family home, such as the Tudor language of the street-facing facade, and design the ADU, which would be visible from the street, to look like a garage.

That didn’t stop them from pushing the envelope in back, where they designed a thoroughly modern exterior with dramatic pitched roofs graced with bold black windows, diagonal cedar siding on the master bedroom expansion and a slatted black trellis that extends the back portion of the kitchen and echoes the black trim on the windows.

“We were so constrained on the front, so the back was a place to go another direction while using some of the references of the house,” says Krebs. “It’s so fun to walk to the back and see a completely different house.”


A view of the courtyard that connects the main house to the ADU, designed by Medium Plenty.(Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

In its new manifestation, the main house is only slightly bigger: 1,636 square feet rather than 1,446. It also has an open floor plan, multiple skylights that bathe the interiors in light and warm wood cabinets for the family’s books and accessories.

While the living room was left intact, including the home’s original fireplace and coved ceilings, all of the interiors were gutted to create a more flexible floorplan with an easy flow for the couple’s children — Clementine, 11, and Dante, 14 — other family members and friends.


The original fireplace and coved ceilings were preserved in the living room of the newly renovated home. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

The wall that separated the kitchen from the backyard is now gone, creating an open, light-filled space that looks out over the yard and a new communal deck that serves as a bridge between the home and ADU.

“We wanted to open it up,” says Rion. “The house was so dark and Medium Plenty added big windows, a Nanawall and skylights that bring the feeling of nature inside. We live in a tree-friendly city and there are so many birds and squirrels in the neighborhood. It makes a huge difference.”


The entrance to the ADU faces away from the main house and street. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

The small floorplan preserved the yard on the long and narrow lot, leaving room for a basketball hoop, an outdoor dining area and Rion’s drought-tolerant and edible gardening projects. The architects also maximized space by adding built-in storage in the garage and main house and an attic above most of the spaces.

Adding to the modern feel of the courtyard, the architects clad the exterior of the ADU in diagonal cedar planks, similar to the master bedroom addition. Closed off from the courtyard and street, Maggie’s dwelling faces away from the main house, with private entrances on the side and in back, where her door opens onto a fenced yard that provides ample room for her dogs.

“The existing layout of the building was well suited for an ADU because it’s all one level,” says Krebs. “The families can be adjacent to one another and then be able to come together.”


The interior of the South Pasadena ADU features a loft. (Mariko Reed)

For Maggie, the ADU needed to be big enough for her to feel comfortable and cozy, but not so large that maintenance would be a problem. The architects installed no-nonsense linoleum floors, a small Ikea kitchen with Semihandmade fronts, skylights, a bathroom with a curbless shower for easy entry and a loft for storage.

“She didn’t want it to feel clinical,” says Read. “She wanted a colorful, clean box for her things and antiques.”


Architects Ian Read and Gretchen Krebs of Medium Plenty designed the open kitchen with entertaining in mind. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

Asked if they had any advice for homeowners considering an ADU, the architects said it’s important to be clear on building guidelines before proceeding.

”An ADU seems like it’s a lot less than a house, but it’s still a house,” says Read. The South Pasadena ADU cost approximately $250,000 by the time it was completed in October 2021, but the architects say it would cost twice as much today due to supply chain and labor issues. “Be clear on what the guidelines are going to be. You can invest a lot of money in a project and find out you don’t qualify for permits, or you have to do upgrades, and it will cost a lot more than you think.”


A photo in the dining room captures the couple’s children at the Cité des Sciences et de l’Industrie in Paris. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

Twenty-two years after moving away, Rion is back home in Los Angeles County, which she says has changed immeasurably in her absence.

Prior to the pandemic, she had envisioned hosting friends in the family’s new open kitchen that was specifically designed with entertaining in mind. She had also hoped to support her uncle, her mother’s older brother, who was sick with cancer for many years before he passed away in 2020.

Still, much remains the same. Her middle school principal lives down the street. Her children attend the same schools she did in her youth.


A sliding NanaWall opens the kitchen and dining room to the outdoors. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

The property feels like a modern retreat on a street with a small town feel, and the couple are happy with the home’s communal feel. “We have dinners together a few times a week with my mom,” Rion says. “Pizza nights on Mondays. We send the kids over with her mail and they help her wash the dogs.”

Adds Michael, who is also 47: “I’ve known [Maggie] for more than 20 years now, but I never really got to know her, because we didn’t live nearby. Now that we get to see each other so often, I have an opportunity to know her in a way that I hadn’t before.”


The couple are fans of Midcentury, Scandinavian and Japanese design. (Jason Armond/Los Angeles Times)

Working in the tech industry, the couple led a nomadic life for many years, living in Brooklyn, London, Paris and the Bay Area. Now that they have put down roots in South Pasadena, they say their children have something they cherished growing up: a relationship with their grandmother.

“It is an absolute gift to spend time with my mother,” says Rion. “We consider ourselves extremely lucky.”

Link: https://www.latimes.com/lifestyle/story/...a-multigenerational-housing-with-grandma

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

no, inside our home the sound is nowhere near loud enough to cause long-term hearing damage.

thank the lord for 3-wythe brick exterior wall construction on chicago's vintage flat buildings.

all of that substantial clay mass eats A LOT of sound.

Indeed, the heavy brick will help eat up a lot of sound waves. It's the non-brick parts of the wall you may want to consider sealing and upgrading if any sound bothers you.

sure, we spend a lot of time living in the indoor part of our home, but 99.9% of the L's noise impact on us is when we're outside on our back deck and patio, and there's nothing that can be done about the noise out there. it just is what it is.

and since most people like spending some amount time outside in a yard or on a balcony/deck/patio/whatever, there is a significant percentage of people who would look at our condo and just say "NO WAY! total deal-killer. it's way too effing close to the L; I could never deal with all of that train noise when i'm just trying to relax outside in my back yard".

Yes, that's just part of the experience, for better or worse. Unless the CTA puts up a sound wall next to their trains improves the quietness of their wheels on the tracks, that's just the experience you're going to get in patio facing the train tracks.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dchan

Unless the CTA puts up a sound wall next to their trains improves the quietness of their wheels on the tracks, that's just the experience you're going to get in patio facing the train tracks.

the only thing that i could theoretically see sometime decades down the line is the CTA replacing the some of the century+ old steel elevated structures for the L with concrete structures.

when the orange line out to midway got built back in the '90s, its elevated portions were primarily built with concrete, and they are noticeably quieter than the old steel elevated sections of the older lines.

concrete eats the noise.

steel amplifies it.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

concrete eats the noise.

Not really, actually. I think France has been something like the world's champion of concrete because it is known by structural engineers as a most convenient composite material to erect buildings of all kinds out here.
There's not just one type of concrete, there is endless possibilities. You may mix plenty of various materials into it.
Some types of concrete even look good to facades. They do good looking concrete buildings nowadays.

But it's certainly not efficient enough for insulation or soundproofing. At least, not yet.

[dchan]

^ Technically correct. It contributes to thermal & sound insulation mainly through the sheer amount of mass in a typical concrete structural members, but the concrete material itself isn't particularly great at either task. In fact, concrete is actually a really poor thermal insulator, just like all stone material.

But for elevated tracks, concrete will have better sound dampening than steel. Steel structures are relatively thin and lightweight, so it tends to resonate in tune with train cars rolling over it. Whereas the concrete structure is stiff and heavy enough to prevent any resonance. The "quietness" has to do with the lack of resonance.

Tracks would actually be quieter with track ballast, if possible:

• Video Link

Another comparison is concrete vs asphalt road surfaces. The softer asphalt topping tends to be much, much quieter than a concrete road (at least when the asphalt has been freshly laid with few imperfections).

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mousquet

I think France has been something like the world's champion of concrete because it is known by structural engineers as a most convenient composite material to erect buildings of all kinds out here.

chicago is no stranger to concrete construction innovation either.

in fact, i used to live in the buildings below, which were the tallest concrete skyscrapers ever constructed when they were built back in the mid-60s.


source: wikipedia


several chicago towers have held the "tallest all-concrete skyscraper" title over the decades:

marina city: 1964
lake point tower: 1968
water tower place: 1976
311 s wacker: 1990
2 pru: 1990
trump chicago: 2009

Originally Posted by dchan

But for elevated tracks, concrete will have better sound dampening than steel. Steel structures are relatively thin and lightweight, so it tends to resonate in tune with train cars rolling over it. Whereas the concrete structure is stiff and heavy enough to prevent any resonance. The "quietness" has to do with the lack of resonance.

exactly, it's not that concrete is some miracle sound deadening material, but the sheer mass and rigidity of concrete structures, like the newer portions of the elevated L lines, do not reverberate and amplify the sound of the trains like the older steel structures do.

though, the older steel structures are far more elegant to look at in my biased opinion.

Originally Posted by dchan

Tracks would actually be quieter with track ballast, if possible:

and that's another huge difference too. the newer sections of the L like the orange line that use concrete elevated structures also have a fully enclosed track bed with the rail ties sitting on a bed of stone ballast that helps mitigate sound transmission as well, where as the older steel elevated structures are of the "open" style with the rail ties sitting directly on the steel supporting members for maximum sound transmission to the entire structure.

[Steely Dan]

here's some high-end upper-bracket shit from chicago that just went on the market.

this classic gold coast mansion is semi-famous locally for being the house used for the exterior setting shots of the old '80s TV show "Webster".


$6,500,000 | 7 bed | 8 bath | 10,350 SF
1432 N State Pkwy, Chicago, IL

zillow link: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1432-N-State-Pkwy-Chicago-IL-60610/3855320_zpid/

[CaliNative]

Things are definitely slowing down nationwide. Higher rates are hurting. Fewer offers. Crazy bidding wars no more. Prices falling could be next.

[Steely Dan]

^ I really only pay close attention to stuff in my neighborhood, but I've been noticing a lot of price-cuts lately, and higher-end 7-figure stuff languishing longer. In fact, two $1.2M asking price houses right around the corner from me both just slashed $75K off the list this week.

With interest rates rising, the pool of people who can actually take on a mortgage that fat starts to shrink.

[chris08876]

Long overdue with the price drops. A massive correction is needed for this overinflated housing market.

[Crawford]

I don't think the interest rate rise affects NYC coops that much, given they generally have very high cash downpayment and liquidity rules. 50% downpayment is usually a floor in better coops, and liquid wealth usually needs to be multiples of purchase price.

But SFH in the suburbs are probably feeling it.

Anecdotal, since we're looking for a bigger place, but I don't see a slowdown quite yet.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by chris08876

Long overdue with the price drops. A massive correction is needed for this overinflated housing market.

Real Estate is obviously market specific, but at the macro level, I don't think we will see massive corrections. We will certainly level off, but as long as inventory remains extremely low (at least at the macro level) prices will remain strong. Higher rates will help stabilize pricing somewhat.

Anecdotally in my sub market of Lake Minnetonka (Wayzata, Minnesota), Lake Front property is almost non existent, we receive unsolicited written offers from people at least 1x per month or so. Prices here are still very strong (Probably the strongest in the Midwest).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Real Estate is obviously market specific, but at the macro level, I don't think we will see massive corrections. We will certainly level off, but as long as inventory remains extremely low (at least at the macro level) prices will remain strong. Higher rates will help stabilize pricing somewhat.

Agreed. It doesn't seem like a glut now like it did in the 00s.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Agreed. It doesn't seem like a glut now like it did in the 00s.

It's a completely different situation. There aren't a bunch of predatory variable-rate mortgages with balloon payments lurking out there. There aren't many speculatively homes or condo complexes under construction. There are many more Americans between the ages of 25 and 40 looking to buy a first home in 2022 than there were in 2008.

The outside money and swift uptick in prices has been a great thing for the Great Lakes region since tons of money has gone into rehabbing old homes in prewar neighborhoods. My city used to have a blog that listed the homes that were demolished every month. It was typically 25+ homes but now maybe 2-3 are torn down each month, usually after a fire.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

this classic gold coast mansion is semi-famous locally for being the house used for the exterior setting shots of the old '80s TV show "Webster".

Unless it has the secret passages, the price is too high.

Side note: How many texts or calls does everyone get to sell their property? I'd be interested in what it's like around the country.

I own a home in the Coronado neighborhood of central Phoenix. A typically 1920s neighborhood. It's definitely been a neighborhood seeing a lot of investment, and it's always been one of the quirkier neighborhoods. It's literally a streetcar suburb as it was the end of the line of one of the City's original streetcar lines. It was also originally a very working class place with very modest home sizes and initial for-sale prices. It currently houses and appeals to a wide spectrum of people from rich young urban professionals buying the very nicely renovated houses with big nice additions, normal young people and couples that rent, artists, gays, and long-time owners/residents (typically Mexican). Overall, it isn't at all the nicest or priciest inner/historic neighborhood of Phoenix, but it's better than some.

With that information out of the way, I get probably 10 texts or phone calls per week with unsolicited offers or questioning my interest in selling.

[Crawford]

The lenders appear to be doing stupid stuff again, however. Maybe not as bad as 15 years ago, but our prequalify letter has an insane number. Like 60% of our take-home income.

Complete absurdity. It's more than twice what we plan to spend.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

here's some high-end upper-bracket shit from chicago that just went on the market.

this classic gold coast mansion is semi-famous locally for being the house used for the exterior setting shots of the old '80s TV show "Webster".


$6,500,000 | 7 bed | 8 bath | 10,350 SF
1432 N State Pkwy, Chicago, IL

zillow link: https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1432-N-State-Pkwy-Chicago-IL-60610/3855320_zpid/

This is exactly the sort of house I could live in...

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

or, you just learn to live with it as your brain trains itself to tune it out, as most people do.

the L noise inside of our home is pretty much a non-factor for us after living with it for over 4 years now, but out on our back deck & patio, that's where it's so LOUD and in your face that there's absolutely no way to "tune it out".

and you can't soundproof the "outside".

I live quite close to the loop L and only on the 5th floor, but I barely hear it unless I'm listening for it. Nice thick walls and insulated windows do magic... now if only they could stop the sound of those asshats with loud motors.