Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're speaking to a Canadian audience. We are not cultural Luddites like our American cousins. We tend to have a (slightly) more globalist, European and progressive mindset, probably due to our longer time sitting on the lap of Mother England, and to compromises necessary to maintain good relations with our Quebecois neighbours.

As for Mandarin - it is not spoken widely anywhere outside of China. For a language to become global, it would require a much greater reach. Same thing goes for Hindi.

English may not remain the lingua franca forever, but I don't see any real competitor on the horizon. Spanish is certainly important, but not really outside Central and South America. French is a better bet, especially given it's importance in Europe, the Middle East and in sub Saharan Africa. I would go so far as to admit that French may experience a resurgence on the world stage (due to African birth rates).

From my observations I would say that Mandarin is pretty widely spoken outside China and in quite a few countries. I realize that it's not used in business the same way that you see English being used but there are quite a few Mandarin and Cantonese speakers throughout the world.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

If that’s the case, then it’s the Canadian taxpayers who are the clowns/suckers in the story.

We wouldn’t be talking about this if the CBSA instead had a more reasonable sign: “This is the Michigan-Ontario border, who the hell expects anything other than Unilingual English service here???”

End of story.

My point has always been the false advertising angle, not the “I’m being genocided, I can’t order a 7up in French” one.

I’m fine with a given restaurant not offering coffee, just don’t have a sign advertising that you have fresh coffee on hand. That’s all.

The Michigan-Ontario border crossing at Sault Ste Marie always has a bilingual CBSA border services officer (BSO) available. It's within a designated bilingual region where the federal government has to provide service in both languages. I know people who have spoken French when crossing and never had any issues. One time one of my friends said "bonjour" and the BSO went and got the supervisor who was bilingual to do the interview and it only delayed it by about 10 seconds as the supervisor just walked over to the booth. Northeastern Ontario has a lot of francophones so it's nothing out of the ordinary even though the Sault itself doesn't have very many.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Lets take this as an example: we often hear people saying that the Prime Minister of Canada doesn’t have to be bilingual, that he should just need to be qualified. How would most of the same people react if the Prime Minister was indeed unilingual but was only able to speak French? They would be the first to complain. We all know it is a fictive example because there in no way a unilingual Francophone would be elected Prime Minister of Canada.

We could ask the same question about the Supreme Court. Should we pass on a candidate just because he is unilingual? In reality the answer will depend if the candidate in Question speak French or English.

We now have a Governor General that doesn’t speak French, would we ever had seen ne that doesn't speak English?

So yes, there is a double standard.

I guess I'm out of touch as I don't hear people saying a Prime Minister doesn't need to be bilingual.

But I get your point, as I can't imagine a uni-lingual Prime Minister who only speaks French as he or she would not be able to communicate with approx 75% of the population. That person would never make it to the leadership position of a major Canadian political party for that reason.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think if you lived in Quebec for a while with your eyes wide open and saw certain anglophones (either locals or visitors) in action here, you might have a different view.

There are people I know ("of", not personally) that I've been seeing out and about for 20 years, and still answer with a "what's that?" to service staff when they are greeted with a "bonjour!".

And I live in a 90-95% francophone area.

Are there tons of them? No. But they do exist.

I wouldn't want their numbers to grow significantly, though.

And you shouldn't either, if you believe in a "united Canada".

Just sayin'.

I guess if you take my post literally it would be considered to mean that there are zero people who have an expectation of bilingualism for people of Quebec. That's not what I meant... I do feel that by and large there is not an expectation, in fact I think the impression of many people from outside of the province is that many Quebec residents do not speak any English, while obviously many do.

BTY, I absolutely despise the term "just sayin'", however in the spirit of debating with those damn Anglophones, it's probably right on target... implied ignorance and all that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I guess if you take my post literally it would be considered to mean that there are zero people who have an expectation of bilingualism for people of Quebec. That's not what I meant... I do feel that by and large there is not an expectation, in fact I think the impression of many people from outside of the province is that many Quebec residents do not speak any English, while obviously many do.

BTY, I absolutely despise the term "just sayin'", however in the spirit of debating with those damn Anglophones, it's probably right on target... implied ignorance and all that.

My "just sayin" was more like a "...something you might want to consider". Sorry for the confusion.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I guess I'm out of touch as I don't hear people saying a Prime Minister doesn't need to be bilingual.

But I get your point, as I can't imagine a uni-lingual Prime Minister who only speaks French as he or she would not be able to communicate with approx 75% of the population. That person would never make it to the leadership position of a major Canadian political party for that reason.

The "requirement" is political rather than legal. You are right that as a practical matter a unilingual French speaker could not become PM.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The "requirement" is political rather than legal. You are right that as a practical matter a unilingual French speaker could not become PM.

Although most people did not complain about the quality of Jean Chretien's English.

It's interesting that Acajack always carefully analyses the quality of any anglophones French skills when they participate in a French language political debate. It's almost as if his/her elocution skills are more important than what it is that he is trying to say. I realize that the two are intertwined, and especially when you are dealing with nuance, the more skilled you are in the language of the debate, the better you will perform, but still.

This is often a sticking point with anglophones attempting to use the French language. We often feel we are being judged anytime we make the attempt, and that any sub par performance will lead to ridicule and scorn. If a francophone really wants us to use the language, then why don't they help us along in a non judgmental way????

Right now, any attempt to try and speak French can seem quite intimidating to a non native speaker. The attitude seems to be "look, I can tell that you are not chez nous, and as far as I'm concerned, you never will be. You will never be part of the club so why are you even trying????"

[MolsonExport]

We often feel we are being judged anytime we make the attempt, and that any sub par performance will lead to ridicule and scorn.

this is so on point. On the one hand, fearing such ridicule and scorn, I was eventually able to affect a strong Quebecois accent when speaking French (unlike that which was taught at school). On the other hand, so many of my compatriots stopped trying.

Ask any Anglo how many times they heard this when attempting to converse in French:
"Hein?!?!?" "Hein?!?!?"

For the record, English Canadians not are much better when they encounter Francophones that are stuggling to speak in English.

They don't teach Joual in school. Much like how Cockney is not taught in UK schools. There are more barriers to conversation than just vocabulary and grammar.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Although most people did not complain about the quality of Jean Chretien's English.

It's interesting that Acajack always carefully analyses the quality of any anglophones French skills when they participate in a French language political debate. It's almost as if his/her elocution skills are more important than what it is that he is trying to say. I realize that the two are intertwined, and especially when you are dealing with nuance, the more skilled you are in the language of the debate, the better you will perform, but still.

This is often a sticking point with anglophones attempting to use the French language. We often feel we are being judged anytime we make the attempt, and that any sub par performance will lead to ridicule and scorn. If a francophone really wants us to use the language, then why don't they help us along in a non judgmental way????

Right now, any attempt to try and speak French can seem quite intimidating to a non native speaker. The attitude seems to be "look, I can tell that you are not chez nous, and as far as I'm concerned, you never will be. You will never be part of the club so why are you even trying????"

I was thinking when I posted that Jean Chretien kind of pushed the envelope.

I hear what you are saying about speaking French. In my case, it makes me comfortable in the language only when I know that the other person has no English. That's why it's English first in Montreal, for me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It's interesting that Acajack always carefully analyses the quality of any anglophones French skills when they participate in a French language political debate.

I carefully analyse them on here because people always ask.

[Acajack]

BTW Jack Layton was never even close to having a Québécois accent, and made tons of mistakes, and was pretty darn close to having "beloved" status in Quebec.

[MolsonExport]

BTW Jean Chrétien was never even close to having a good English accent, and made tons of mistakes, and was pretty darn close to having "beloved" status in Canada.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

BTW Jean Chrétien was never even close to having a good English accent, and made tons of mistakes, and was pretty darn close to having "beloved" status in Canada.

To be fair, his accent projected the type of French Canadian most Canadians are comfortable with.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I guess if you take my post literally it would be considered to mean that there are zero people who have an expectation of bilingualism for people of Quebec. :

I think that the expectations of ROCers vis-à-vis the English skills of Québécois run the gamut.

Some expect that almost no one will speak English at all.

Some expect that most everyone is going to speak fluent English everywhere, like they do in an ethnic neighbourhood in their own city.

Some think that everyone actually speaks English but many pretend that they don't.

In fairness the views of the average Québécois about how much French is spoken outside the province are similarly ill-informed and skewed.

Infamously, many have trouble comprehending that there actually are native francophones (somewhat similar to them in many cases) living in the ROC (with the possible exception of NB Acadiens, who have high visibility in Quebec).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

To be fair, his accent projected the type of French Canadian most Canadians are comfortable with.

Both you and Molson are correct in this instance.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

.
Infamously, many have trouble comprehending that there actually are native francophones (somewhat similar to them in many cases) living in the ROC (with the possible exception of NB Acadiens, who have high visibility in Quebec).

Many think that French stops being spoken as soon as you cross the Ottawa river. People are always surprised when I tell them that many places in Eastern Ontario are primarily francophone. Some also think you’re supposed to switch to English as soon as you enter NW New Brunswick and that Acadiens only speak French as a second language.

[Acajack]

Generally speaking, I don't think that these days francophones in Anglo-Canada encounter many problems at all if they speak English with a thick accent or make linguistic mistakes.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The Michigan-Ontario border crossing at Sault Ste Marie always has a bilingual CBSA border services officer (BSO) available. It's within a designated bilingual region where the federal government has to provide service in both languages. I know people who have spoken French when crossing and never had any issues. One time one of my friends said "bonjour" and the BSO went and got the supervisor who was bilingual to do the interview and it only delayed it by about 10 seconds as the supervisor just walked over to the booth. Northeastern Ontario has a lot of francophones so it's nothing out of the ordinary even though the Sault itself doesn't have very many.

Good point; it’s easy to forget (like I did) that Northeastern Ontario actually touches Michigan.

Fixed CBSA sign proposal for Windsor/Sarnia: “This is Southern Michigan-Southern Ontario, adjust your linguistic expectations”

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The Michigan-Ontario border crossing at Sault Ste Marie always has a bilingual CBSA border services officer (BSO) available. It's within a designated bilingual region where the federal government has to provide service in both languages. I know people who have spoken French when crossing and never had any issues. One time one of my friends said "bonjour" and the BSO went and got the supervisor who was bilingual to do the interview and it only delayed it by about 10 seconds as the supervisor just walked over to the booth. Northeastern Ontario has a lot of francophones so it's nothing out of the ordinary even though the Sault itself doesn't have very many.

What an asshole (says harls)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Generally speaking, I don't think that these days francophones in Anglo-Canada encounter many problems at all if they speak English with a thick accent or make linguistic mistakes.

Depends how one defines “problems”. Life is easier when everyone always understands you. Even stuff like getting a job (or failing to), it’s a factor that can make a difference.

But yeah, you shouldn’t run into “major” problems.