Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

But it was mostly rejected in Québec and embraced in the ROC...

That is a common theme in Canada when something comes from Québec: if in ends up good, that it is a Canadian Success, if it turns out bad (or if people chose to see it as bad) then it is a Québécois failure...

PET was also arguably bicultural due to being the son of Charles-Émile Trudeau and Grace Elliott, and if you read between the lines of the stuff he wrote (speaking as someone who read all of his books at one point), it can be argued he had a penchant for the anglophone as opposed to the francophone side of things.

I know people (in the ROC) often don't see that, especially since he is closely associated with the Official Languages Act, but if you read his stuff and also analyse his political actions, it's pretty clear.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

English may not remain the lingua franca forever, but I don't see any real competitor on the horizon. Spanish is certainly important, but not really outside Central and South America. French is a better bet, especially given it's importance in Europe, the Middle East and in sub Saharan Africa. I would go so far as to admit that French may experience a resurgence on the world stage (due to African birth rates).

French may not overtake English, but it's actually gaining in momentum as an international language right now. It's quite ironic that (some) Canadians are so eager to jettison it when it's already been a competitive advantage for the country, and is an even bigger potential one going forward in the future.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're speaking to a Canadian audience. We are not cultural Luddites like our American cousins. We tend to have a (slightly) more globalist, European and progressive mindset, probably due to our longer time sitting on the lap of Mother England, and to compromises necessary to maintain good relations with our Quebecois neighbours.
.

In terms of a general openness to cultural differences I might agree somewhat, but when it comes to the language dimension specifically, Anglo-Canadians aren't really that different from Americans.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

French may not overtake English, but it's actually gaining in momentum as an international language right now. It's quite ironic that (some) Canadians are so eager to jettison it when it's already been a competitive advantage for the country, and is an even bigger potential one going forward in the future.

You are ascribing motives to English Canadians that do not really exist (for the most part).

There is not so much hatred for the French language as there is a wish that bilingualism be applied in a more pragmatic manner in areas of the country where the need doesn't really exist.

Similarly in Quebec, there are large areas of the province where English skills are not important (like the apophrycal passport clerk in the Saguenay). In Montreal however, English skills can be important for business, and in Quebec City for tourism in the old walled portion of the city. English services might also be nice in select legacy parts of the province where there is a historic English population, but, in general, we don't care if the vast majority of the province is seulement francais. Heck, even la peninsule in NB could be declared a French only zone and we wouldn't care.

Bilingualism is fundamental and necessary for the Canadian federation. Let's just apply this fundamental value in a sensible and practical manner.

And, given the rise of French globally, it should be a second language that all Canadians should aspire to learn (at least to a limited degree). Living in the Americas however, Spanish is a strong competitor.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah although you could point out that "nation" is an arbitrary category that was developed in this context for Quebec and exists due to that province's political leverage. It makes sense that Moe isn't going to take it seriously.

If this is what you're saying, I don't think that "Quebec as a nation" is something that was artificially concocted to fit this country's Quebec-Canada issue.

The definition that we are talking about is found in all political science and sociology books, and even mainstream dictionaries.

Due to the influence of the US next door many Canadians think that "nation" and "country" are hard synonyms. They actually aren't.


Also, the presence of minorities on a nation's generally recognized territory (whether the minorities feel they are part of it or not, or only partly so) does not negate the existence of the wider nation.

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the best framework is to keep provinces equal and allow them a lot of flexibility. This implies neither inventing arcane ways in which Saskatchewan is less important than Quebec nor Ontarians getting involved in Quebec signage laws.

Agreed.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Japanese understand that the true language of business is than language of your customers. The anglosphere has a hard time understanding that and it will make English speaking countries less competitive in the future.

Japan dug themselves out of very hard times after WWII. They had the mentality that they had to do whatever was needed to grow their economy again, and understood that the English-speaking United States was the most important country to allow them to accomplish that goal.

I'm not clear on your point that English speaking countries will be less competitive in the future, because of language. Companies that want to do business in other countries will have translators and cultural experts working for them to bridge the gap. On top of that, translation technology is better than it ever has been, and will only improve moving forward. Language should be less of a barrier in the future than it was in the past.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You are ascribing motives to English Canadians that do not really exist (for the most part).
.

I think the views in Anglo-Canada on this run the gamut, from "let's get rid of French it's useless plus I never liked those guys anyway" to "it's legitimate for Quebec to want to protect French, plus it's a feather in Canada's cap and it's not up to me as an anglo to tell them what to do", and a whole bunch of stuff in between.

I won't engage in the perilous exercise of assigning percentages, though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

That's pure fabrication on your part. You're assuming a hostile attitude that wasn't there at all. A sign said "this lane offers service in the other official language of the Federal government" (which happens to be my language) and I figured, "wow, I'll actually be very impressed if that's decent quality service, given we're pretty far from Quebec; let's check it out, because why not".

Similarly, had I wanted coffee that day, I could have entered a Sarnia coffee shop that advertised fresh coffee, only to be told they don't offer coffee here despite their sign, and then I'd have left to go to a Tim's or McD's nearby ("lio45 deliberately antagonizes the poor dude at the coffee shop that doesn't have any coffee", in harlspeak ) and it wouldn't have been a big deal at all.

The big difference between me and Michel Thibodeau (infamous 7up guy) is that I didn't file any complaint. (I had my tools with me, I may have offered to do CBSA a favor by taking down that sign, but that's about it.)

I also have trouble feeling sympathy for the "poor clown" who in this case is arguably being paid for a job he isn't fully qualified to do. (Or at least it's a failing of management in not having people qualified to the job their location is supposed to do under the law.)

But getting back to the "poor clown", as I said he lacks an important qualification for Canadian border services officers which is the ability to communicate with Canadian citizens in the language of their choice. I guess it ranks lower than the ability to sniff out people lying about guns, drugs, criminal records or Air Jordans, but it's still fairly high up on the list.

Yes, the government has a rational approach to this requirement, and so does not require all of its border officers to be bilingual everywhere.

Still, the "poor clown" has access to free language training while being fully paid and away from his job for 6 months, 1 year or 2 years. (If they wanted to send me away to learn any language, be fully paid, and not have to do my job, I'd say yes right away! If you talk to some people in Ottawa, it's akin to spending a year in Guantanamo and getting waterboarded.)

The poor clown also has a public service job for life with generous benefits, a great pension and a salary higher than the average in Sarnia.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

PET was also arguably bicultural due to being the son of Charles-Émile Trudeau and Grace Elliott, and if you read between the lines of the stuff he wrote (speaking as someone who read all of his books at one point), it can be argued he had a penchant for the anglophone as opposed to the francophone side of things.

I know people (in the ROC) often don't see that, especially since he is closely associated with the Official Languages Act, but if you read his stuff and also analyse his political actions, it's pretty clear.

I could make a contrarian case.

Cité Libre was an influential political journal published in Quebec, Canada, through the 1950s and 1960s. Co-founded in 1950 by editor and future Prime Minister of Canada Pierre Trudeau, the publication served as an organ of opposition to the conservative government of Maurice Duplessis.

The journal published contributions by intellectuals such as Trudeau, Gérard Pelletier, René Lévesque, Pierre Vallières and other intellectuals and activists. In doing so, the journal gained a reputation for its radical viewpoints at a time when anti-Duplessis views were difficult to get into print.

wikipedia

The journal was anti-clerical and often criticised the strong influence that the Roman Catholic Church then had in Quebec. It also favoured civil liberties, as shown by its opposition to such measures as the Padlock Law (adopted by Duplessis in 1937) and its support of the Asbestos Strike. Editor Trudeau helped form the Rassemblement, a group devoted to turning the public against Duplessis. This group, combined with Cité Libre, helped foster the intellectualism that revived the Quebec Liberal Party, which defeated the Union Nationale in 1960. Many of the themes raised by Cité Libre found fruition during Quebec's Quiet Revolution of the 1960s. A number of the journal's contributors went on to take leading parts in that movement.

Cité Libre was not exactly the haunt of anglos.

Cosmopolitans like PET are always the target of nationalists. Even when they conveniently overlook the cosmopolitanism of the arch-anglophile, Jacques Parizeau.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

It is indeed easier for someone in Québec to learn English than for someone in the ROC to learn French, but in the end it is a double standard that is detrimental to Québec because the ROC will expect Québécois to all learn English so they themselves don't have to learn French (and use the higher bilingualism rate of Francophones as an excuse not to give services and French while being outraged when Québec tries to integrate immigrant population into the French community through laws). It is like the deal proposed to Québec by the ROC is: "you all learn English and in exchange we tolerate French on cereal boxes (barely, but still...)".

I don't think there's a double standard. People use whatever language is natural to them, and if they need to learn a second or third language to function in the world around them they will (or they will try).

I don't feel that there's any expectation by English-speaking Canada for Quebecois to be bilingual, nor should there be any expectation for English speakers to learn French. It's a personal choice borne by necessity and/or desire that motivates a person to learn another language. If you can live your life comfortably only using one language, then most people will, it's as simple as that.

I have no problem with Quebec maintaining their Francophone status, nor do I have a problem with government services being provided in both of our country's official languages in the entire country. It should be that way, even though it isn't always.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Still, the "poor clown" has access to free language training while being fully paid and away from his job for 6 months, 1 year or 2 years. .

Who's to say the poor clown hasn't been away to language training already, but, since he rarely gets to practice his newfound skills, they quickly atrophied through lack of use, and within six months he was back to baseline.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Japan dug themselves out of very hard times after WWII. They had the mentality that they had to do whatever was needed to grow their economy again, and understood that the English-speaking United States was the most important country to allow them to accomplish that goal.

I'm not clear on your point that English speaking countries will be less competitive in the future, because of language. Companies that want to do business in other countries will have translators and cultural experts working for them to bridge the gap. On top of that, translation technology is better than it ever has been, and will only improve moving forward. Language should be less of a barrier in the future than it was in the past.

When you know a language you are more likely to understand the people who are speaking it than if you outsource the communication to a translator. The subtleties (or even the bulk) of a message can get, well, lost in translation. If the leaders of a company (or at least the managers responsible for a specific market) know the language of their customers, they will have a better control on the message (and its retroaction), which is vital to avoid miscommunication. And if you just chose to let your customers handle the burden of translation, not only you might lose the message but you also lose control on the cost of translation which will make your product more expansive (in money but also in the trouble it takes to translate compare to another product that is already "translated").

The anglosphere is used to be the biggest market and to have everybody speak its language to sell their products, and it is therefore used to their customers (that are often the same people) knowing English. Will business in English speaking countries be able to react as fast when their competitors have a new communication advantage on them?

We all heard about American tourists outraged that people sometimes don't speak to them in English in other countries, imagine that at the scale of a whole company.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

PET was also arguably bicultural due to being the son of Charles-Émile Trudeau and Grace Elliott, and if you read between the lines of the stuff he wrote (speaking as someone who read all of his books at one point), it can be argued he had a penchant for the anglophone as opposed to the francophone side of things.

I know people (in the ROC) often don't see that, especially since he is closely associated with the Official Languages Act, but if you read his stuff and also analyse his political actions, it's pretty clear.

Herself the issue of a mixed marriage (mother was a Sauvé). The family is like the poster child for Montreal elites.

[suburbanite]

Machine learning is getting to the point where I would be surprised if in 10 years we didn't have access to instantaneous translation that is accurate to the level where anyone can get their point across in French, English, Spanish, German, etc. We will likely have similar capabilities as the U.N. currently does to have multilingual discourse, but with an iphone instead of a team of live translators.

Will bilingualism debates still be raging when lio can go to the border agent in Windsor who's never spoken a word of French since Grade 9, and receive whatever service he needs in perfectly understandable French voiced by Siri?

[MolsonExport]

Rene Levesque (whom I otherwise like quite a lot) did that nasty trick of sneering at the "Elliott" part of Trudeau's name during the 1980 referendum. Insinuating that he was less of a Quebecois because of it. Je me souviens.

I hate that shit.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don't think there's a double standard. People use whatever language is natural to them, and if they need to learn a second or third language to function in the world around them they will (or they will try).

I don't feel that there's any expectation by English-speaking Canada for Quebecois to be bilingual, nor should there be any expectation for English speakers to learn French. It's a personal choice borne by necessity and/or desire that motivates a person to learn another language. If you can live your life comfortably only using one language, then most people will, it's as simple as that.

I have no problem with Quebec maintaining their Francophone status, nor do I have a problem with government services being provided in both of our country's official languages in the entire country. It should be that way, even though it isn't always.

Lets take this as an example: we often hear people saying that the Prime Minister of Canada doesn’t have to be bilingual, that he should just need to be qualified. How would most of the same people react if the Prime Minister was indeed unilingual but was only able to speak French? They would be the first to complain. We all know it is a fictive example because there in no way a unilingual Francophone would be elected Prime Minister of Canada.

We could ask the same question about the Supreme Court. Should we pass on a candidate just because he is unilingual? In reality the answer will depend if the candidate in Question speak French or English.

We now have a Governor General that doesn’t speak French, would we ever had seen ne that doesn't speak English?

So yes, there is a double standard.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Who's to say the poor clown hasn't been away to language training already, but, since he rarely gets to practice his newfound skills, they quickly atrophied through lack of use, and within six months he was back to baseline.

I haven't set foot in a Spanish-speaking country since late 2019, haven't really spoken Spanish since that time, and have taken way less formal training in the language than your average federal employee who works with the public has in French, and I could probably muddle through an interaction at a border crossing in Spanish in the next 5 minutes if I really had to.

Guess some people are just better at languages than others. Or is it more a question of attitude?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don't feel that there's any expectation by English-speaking Canada for Quebecois to be bilingual, nor should there be any expectation for English speakers to learn French. It's a personal choice borne by necessity and/or desire that motivates a person to learn another language. If you can live your life comfortably only using one language, then most people will, it's as simple as that.
.

I think if you lived in Quebec for a while with your eyes wide open and saw certain anglophones (either locals or visitors) in action here, you might have a different view.

There are people I know ("of", not personally) that I've been seeing out and about for 20 years, and still answer with a "what's that?" to service staff when they are greeted with a "bonjour!".

And I live in a 90-95% francophone area.

Are there tons of them? No. But they do exist.

I wouldn't want their numbers to grow significantly, though.

And you shouldn't either, if you believe in a "united Canada".

Just sayin'.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Let's start by that; journalist Jan Wong attributes the shooting at Polytechinque, Concordia and Dawson College (done by people from minorities) to racism in Québec and language laws... When there was the shooting at the Québec City mosque, no one on their right mind would blame that on Muslims, The shooter (a Québecois) was obviously deranged and racist (and no one is denying that). Of course, not everyone believe Wong's assessment, but the fact if was published in the Globe & Mail shows that this kind of views is national news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Wong_controversy

Another journalist, Barbara Kay, denounced some protest in favor of Lebanon in its conflict against Israel. She was basically calling Québécois protesters anti-Semites and called Québec the most anti-Israel province because that Québec wants to attract Francophones immigrants and many of those are from Muslim countries (Morocco, Algeria, Lebanon, etc.). Would she call other provinces anti-Semitic too when they protest some actions by Israel or only the ones where the protesters speak French? And by the way, isn't that weird that Québec would support Muslims like that if we are so racist we don’t want religious symbols on people in position of authority?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Kay_controversy


Aren't there any now and then mentions on overzealous language inspectors in Canadian media? Those inspectors even have been called gestapo by some. The media likes to overblow these events because showing how bad Québec is sells. All the while, the 7UP guy (mentioned in that thread) is ridiculed for asking that Air Canada crew speak at least some French (as the law requires them, I believe).

And what about Shachi Kurl loaded question to Bloc Québécois leader during the last federal election?

https://montreal.citynews.ca/2021/09/18/unacceptable-debate-question-quebec-election-outcome/

Conrad Black called Bill 96 "the usual authoritarian and semi-racist nonsense" in the National Post.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/conrad-black-quebec-language-law-is-a-political-gambit

Toronto Star calls Bill 21 racist:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contribu...ng-the-racist-premise-of-bill-21.html?rf

NDP supports U of O professor Amir Attaran calling Québec racist:

https://thecanadian.news/the-ndp-criticized-from-all-sides-in-the-case-of-professor-attaran/


It is what I can find for now, but there are no lack of Québec bashing everytime Québec has an opinion that differs with the multiculturalism orthodoxy of Canada.

I might stop here, but honestly we could fill up the thread with this stuff. Some recent good ones.

Kelly McParland: Quebec should look to Doug Ford for how to respect a minority language
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/kelly-m...d-for-how-to-respect-a-minority-language


Opinion Quebec’s intolerant government undermines Canadian claims of progressiveness
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/26/quebec-bill-96-french-language-nationalism/

The latter one is from an American paper (arguably the 2nd most prestigious in that country) but the author is Canadian from Vancouver and their "analyst" for all things Canadian.

In spite of his location and total ignorance of French (which he boasts of) he focuses disproportionately on Quebec and French language issues.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're speaking to a Canadian audience. We are not cultural Luddites like our American cousins. We tend to have a (slightly) more globalist, European and progressive mindset, probably due to our longer time sitting on the lap of Mother England, and to compromises necessary to maintain good relations with our Quebecois neighbours.

As for Mandarin - it is not spoken widely anywhere outside of China. For a language to become global, it would require a much greater reach. Same thing goes for Hindi.

English may not remain the lingua franca forever, but I don't see any real competitor on the horizon. Spanish is certainly important, but not really outside Central and South America. French is a better bet, especially given it's importance in Europe, the Middle East and in sub Saharan Africa. I would go so far as to admit that French may experience a resurgence on the world stage (due to African birth rates).

French, Spanish, Arabic, and Russian are regional lingua francas widely used in certain areas, while English is the global one. Mandarin is actually barely used outside of China or Chinese settings, and the Chinese are perfectly content to stay that way - in the Sinosphere, English is promoted as the language of international communication.

French's heartland is very much Africa now. Its standing in Europe is actually arguably still declining. Barely anyone in Scandinavia or Eastern Europe (minus Romania) uses French and even in countries with traditional heavy use of French as a foreign language, such as Italy and Romania, its status is declining relative to English.

In Africa by contrast French is gaining enormous amounts of use as countries develop, become more educated, and learn French and use it as interethnic communication.