Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Binour]

On lit tous le français ici, n'est-ce pas?

Bilinguisme à la Cour suprême Le refus anglophone de l’égalité du français

Les Canadiens anglais montent vite sur leurs grands chevaux pour défendre la place de l’anglais au Québec, mais sont beaucoup moins pressés à reconnaître le français comme langue officielle du Canada. Deux poids, deux mesures ?

Bonne lecture!

https://www.lapresse.ca/debats/opinions/...-anglophone-de-l-egalite-du-francais.php

ps: written by AGNÈS WHITFIELD
PROFESSEURE TITULAIRE, DÉPARTEMENT D’ÉTUDES ANGLAISES, UNIVERSITÉ YORK, TORONTO

[ciudad_del_norte]

Originally Posted by thewave46

The great Saskatchewan Nation just yearns to be free of the yoke of Canada, according to Premier Scott Moe.

Clearly, the ROC does not understand their distinctiveness, their culture, their way of life. So vast the differences, so huge the gulf.

Saskatchewan Nation

I think the various iterations of western separtism movements are silly, but I don't think it's productive to be dismissive of the sentiments that drive them. The sense of Canada being a distant colonial power over the prairies continues to impact culture and politics in the west. That is not to say that anybody travelling from Ontario to Sask is going to have severe culture shock, but the sense of identity, place, history, and relation to 'Canada' as a concept is not the same.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by ciudad_del_norte

I think the various iterations of western separtism movements are silly, but I don't think it's productive to be dismissive of the sentiments that drive them. The sense of Canada being a distant colonial power over the prairies continues to impact culture and politics in the west. That is not to say that anybody travelling from Ontario to Sask is going to have severe culture shock, but the sense of identity, place, history, and relation to 'Canada' as a concept is not the same.

Sure. I can understand the grievances and the issues of another place. Or how a jurisdiction can feel disconnected or ignored in higher decision making.

It is a big stretch for framing though to call a place a ‘nation’ on that premise, without other distinguishing nation characteristics.

It was somewhat an attempt at levity as well. Mea culpa.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have somewhat mixed views on this wider question, but one thing I know for sure is that language rights in Canada aren't based on which languages you know or don't know.

And being fluent in one language doesn't cancel out your right to use the other legally-recognized one.

Come on. Lio's intent was to antagonize the border crossing dude to make some kind of point. He even used the word 'deliberately'.

Much like the 7up guy.

What a stupid fucking hill to die on.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It is a big stretch for framing though to call a place a ‘nation’ on that premise, without other distinguishing nation characteristics.

Yeah although you could point out that "nation" is an arbitrary category that was developed in this context for Quebec and exists due to that province's political leverage. It makes sense that Moe isn't going to take it seriously.

I think the best framework is to keep provinces equal and allow them a lot of flexibility. This implies neither inventing arcane ways in which Saskatchewan is less important than Quebec nor Ontarians getting involved in Quebec signage laws.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

Yeah although you could point out that "nation" is an arbitrary category that was developed in this context for Quebec and exists due to that province's political leverage. It makes sense that Moe isn't going to take it seriously.

I think the best framework is to keep provinces equal and allow them a lot of flexibility. This implies neither inventing arcane ways in which Saskatchewan is less important than Quebec nor Ontarians getting involved in Quebec signage laws.

Québec is often portrayed as wanting special status accessible to no other provinces, but just as long as Québec gets the autonomy it wants it doesn't care if others get it too.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

like that guy that constantly sues Air Canada because he wasn't served a 7Up in French.



https://multilingual.com/french-canadian...thibodeau-wins-victory-against-airports/

Or that woman...

https://thecanadian.news/anglos-want-to-close-their-french-bakery-in-montreal/

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by harls

Come on. Lio's intent was to antagonize the border crossing dude to make some kind of point. He even used the word 'deliberately'.

Much like the 7up guy.

What a stupid fucking hill to die on.

So, Anglophones in Québec who speak French should just use it to get services instead of demanding services in English? Right?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Man, I hope you will keep on posting!

I am not going anywhere...

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

On a side note, I spent much of my career working with people from and in Japan. I learned that, despite Japan having historically been a very isolated society, they are taught English in their schools as a practicality for dealing with a large segment of their business contacts (mostly). I found Japanese to be a very difficult language for me to learn, especially since I would only be immersed in the language for very short periods of time. Likewise, I met Japanese associates who really struggled with English, despite their classes in school. I also knew well some guys who spoke great English - usually the ones who had lived in the US for a few years. Many of them would struggle with English a little when they hadn't been back to North America for some time (but they would quickly get back into the swing of it again). No point here, other than to master a language that's not your native language takes work - you have to learn it, understand it, but more importantly, use it. IMHO, it's almost an unreasonable expectation to expect the ROC to be bilingual when there is no practical use for a second language for most people.

Japanese understand that the true language of business is than language of your customers. The anglosphere has a hard time understanding that and it will make English speaking countries less competitive in the future.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I don't think it's an even comparison, though, to expect the ROC to have the same degree of bilingualism as someone in Quebec would develop naturally as there are more opportunities (and perhaps necessities?) to learn English because most of the rest of the world, at least within a few thousand kilometers, speaks English as their native language, and if you want to interact with the world around you (either for business, or if you want to partake of the culture), you learn English. I would hazard a guess that most people in Quebec understand at least a small degree of English as a survival technique, if they ever want to travel outside of their province, no?

It is indeed easier for someone in Québec to learn English than for someone in the ROC to learn French, but in the end it is a double standard that is detrimental to Québec because the ROC will expect Québécois to all learn English so they themselves don't have to learn French (and use the higher bilingualism rate of Francophones as an excuse not to give services and French while being outraged when Québec tries to integrate immigrant population into the French community through laws). It is like the deal proposed to Québec by the ROC is: "you all learn English and in exchange we tolerate French on cereal boxes (barely, but still...)".

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Binour

On lit tous le français ici, n'est-ce pas?

Bilinguisme à la Cour suprême Le refus anglophone de l’égalité du français

Les Canadiens anglais montent vite sur leurs grands chevaux pour défendre la place de l’anglais au Québec, mais sont beaucoup moins pressés à reconnaître le français comme langue officielle du Canada. Deux poids, deux mesures ?

Bonne lecture!

https://www.lapresse.ca/debats/opinions/...-anglophone-de-l-egalite-du-francais.php

ps: written by AGNÈS WHITFIELD
PROFESSEURE TITULAIRE, DÉPARTEMENT D’ÉTUDES ANGLAISES, UNIVERSITÉ YORK, TORONTO

Et pendant ce temps, la juge en chef de la Cour du Québec veut exiger que les juges de Longueuil et St-Jérôme soient bilingues juste au cas où ils aient à juger des causes impliquant un anglophone. Apparemment il y a plus de difficultés à trouver 6 candidats qualifiés bilingues dans tous le Canada Anglais qu'à trouver des candidats qualifiés bilingues à St-Jérôme... Et dans quel endroit risque-t-on le plus d'avoir des causes en français et en anglais, dans une salle de Cour à St-Jérôme ou à la Cour suprême du Canada?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-bilingual-judges-court-ruling-1.6338203

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Where are the national stories about how racist Quebec is and how anglophones in Quebec are oppressed?

Let's start by that; journalist Jan Wong attributes the shooting at Polytechinque, Concordia and Dawson College (done by people from minorities) to racism in Québec and language laws... When there was the shooting at the Québec City mosque, no one on their right mind would blame that on Muslims, The shooter (a Québecois) was obviously deranged and racist (and no one is denying that). Of course, not everyone believe Wong's assessment, but the fact if was published in the Globe & Mail shows that this kind of views is national news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Wong_controversy

Another journalist, Barbara Kay, denounced some protest in favor of Lebanon in its conflict against Israel. She was basically calling Québécois protesters anti-Semites and called Québec the most anti-Israel province because that Québec wants to attract Francophones immigrants and many of those are from Muslim countries (Morocco, Algeria, Lebanon, etc.). Would she call other provinces anti-Semitic too when they protest some actions by Israel or only the ones where the protesters speak French? And by the way, isn't that weird that Québec would support Muslims like that if we are so racist we don’t want religious symbols on people in position of authority?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Kay_controversy


Aren't there any now and then mentions on overzealous language inspectors in Canadian media? Those inspectors even have been called gestapo by some. The media likes to overblow these events because showing how bad Québec is sells. All the while, the 7UP guy (mentioned in that thread) is ridiculed for asking that Air Canada crew speak at least some French (as the law requires them, I believe).

And what about Shachi Kurl loaded question to Bloc Québécois leader during the last federal election?

https://montreal.citynews.ca/2021/09/18/unacceptable-debate-question-quebec-election-outcome/

Conrad Black called Bill 96 "the usual authoritarian and semi-racist nonsense" in the National Post.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/conrad-black-quebec-language-law-is-a-political-gambit

Toronto Star calls Bill 21 racist:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contribu...ng-the-racist-premise-of-bill-21.html?rf

NDP supports U of O professor Amir Attaran calling Québec racist:

https://thecanadian.news/the-ndp-criticized-from-all-sides-in-the-case-of-professor-attaran/


It is what I can find for now, but there are no lack of Québec bashing everytime Québec has an opinion that differs with the multiculturalism orthodoxy of Canada.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

It is what I can find for now, but there are no lack of Québec bashing everytime Québec has an opinion that differs with the multiculturalism orthodoxy of Canada.

It should be noted that the whole idea of multiculturalism was born in the fertile mind of the Quebec francophone Pierre Eliot Trudeau, so don't blame that one on us.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Japanese understand that the true language of business is than language of your customers. The anglosphere has a hard time understanding that and it will make English speaking countries less competitive in the future.

This can be viewed on both the macroscopic and microscopic level.

Microscopically, there is no question that it is always better to deal with a customer in the language of his/her choice when the capacity to do so exists. If an anglophone wants to buy a chocolate bar (or a 7Up) from a depanneur in Chicoutimi, then this might not be possible. Deal with it.

On a macroscopic level, sometimes it make sense to have a common language for business purposes. I am aware of a tunnel being built under the Alps from Italy to Austria. I believe the project includes a French design firm, German engineers and Italian construction crews. To expedite the project, and to speed communications, the companies agreed to a common language for this project - English. This is despite the fact that the UK was in the process of leaving the EU, and that there was not a significant English involvement in this project. It was just seen that English is the common lingua franca and it made sense to do so.

In my conspiracy theorist mind, one wonders if the project manager had been an anglophone, if this practical decision would have been considered an outrage, and a slap in the face to all continental languages, especially French.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by harls

You know English. Why test the poor clown at the border crossing by pretending not to know it? That's being an ass.

Just like I would be an ass demanding to be served in English at the passport counter in Saguenay, watching them squirm.. when I am bilingual.

I guess that can be considered fun for some people..

Originally Posted by harls

Come on. Lio's intent was to antagonize the border crossing dude to make some kind of point. He even used the word 'deliberately'.

Much like the 7up guy.

What a stupid fucking hill to die on.

That's pure fabrication on your part. You're assuming a hostile attitude that wasn't there at all. A sign said "this lane offers service in the other official language of the Federal government" (which happens to be my language) and I figured, "wow, I'll actually be very impressed if that's decent quality service, given we're pretty far from Quebec; let's check it out, because why not".

Similarly, had I wanted coffee that day, I could have entered a Sarnia coffee shop that advertised fresh coffee, only to be told they don't offer coffee here despite their sign, and then I'd have left to go to a Tim's or McD's nearby ("lio45 deliberately antagonizes the poor dude at the coffee shop that doesn't have any coffee", in harlspeak ) and it wouldn't have been a big deal at all.

The big difference between me and Michel Thibodeau (infamous 7up guy) is that I didn't file any complaint. (I had my tools with me, I may have offered to do CBSA a favor by taking down that sign, but that's about it.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

In my conspiracy theorist mind, one wonders if the project manager had been an anglophone, if this practical decision would have been considered an outrage, and a slap in the face to all continental languages, especially French.

If it had been an European-scale project in the Flemish Brabant, and the practical decision had been to use French as a sort of Western European lingua franca, then you're pretty correct that it would have ruffled local feathers.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It should be noted that the whole idea of multiculturalism was born in the fertile mind of the Quebec francophone Pierre Eliot Trudeau, so don't blame that one on us.

But it was mostly rejected in Québec and embraced in the ROC...

That is a common theme in Canada when something comes from Québec: if in ends up good, that it is a Canadian Success, if it turns out bad (or if people chose to see it as bad) then it is a Québécois failure...

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This can be viewed on both the macroscopic and microscopic level.

Microscopically, there is no question that it is always better to deal with a customer in the language of his/her choice when the capacity to do so exists. If an anglophone wants to buy a chocolate bar (or a 7Up) from a depanneur in Chicoutimi, then this might not be possible. Deal with it.

On a macroscopic level, sometimes it make sense to have a common language for business purposes. I am aware of a tunnel being built under the Alps from Italy to Austria. I believe the project includes a French design firm, German engineers and Italian construction crews. To expedite the project, and to speed communications, the companies agreed to a common language for this project - English. This is despite the fact that the UK was in the process of leaving the EU, and that there was not a significant English involvement in this project. It was just seen that English is the common lingua franca and it made sense to do so.

In my conspiracy theorist mind, one wonders if the project manager had been an anglophone, if this practical decision would have been considered an outrage, and a slap in the face to all continental languages, especially French.

I wonder how the anglosphere will react when that "common world language" will move from English to Chinese Mandarin... Will they resist it or embrace it? I mean, I am sure the Americans would embrace a language used over the world even if it is not their own... Like the metric system...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I wonder how the anglosphere will react when that "common world language" will move from English to Chinese Mandarin... Will they resist it or embrace it? I mean, I am sure the Americans would embrace a language used over the world even if it is not their own... Like the metric system...

You're speaking to a Canadian audience. We are not cultural Luddites like our American cousins. We tend to have a (slightly) more globalist, European and progressive mindset, probably due to our longer time sitting on the lap of Mother England, and to compromises necessary to maintain good relations with our Quebecois neighbours.

As for Mandarin - it is not spoken widely anywhere outside of China. For a language to become global, it would require a much greater reach. Same thing goes for Hindi.

English may not remain the lingua franca forever, but I don't see any real competitor on the horizon. Spanish is certainly important, but not really outside Central and South America. French is a better bet, especially given it's importance in Europe, the Middle East and in sub Saharan Africa. I would go so far as to admit that French may experience a resurgence on the world stage (due to African birth rates).