Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Francophobia (of which Quebec bashing is just the contemporary manifestation) is arguably Canada's Number 2 historical stain in terms of significance, and has been present on this territory since the mid-1700s at least.

(Of course it ranks quite a bit below everything that's been done to Indigenous people, in terms of how vicious, systematic and effective the nastiness has been. Even if Indigenous people happen to be more "popular" in polite company at the moment than francophones are.)...

lol, did you forget about slavery, the Chinese head tax/construction of CPR, the internment of the Japanese, etc?

[lio45]

His point totally stands when we’re weighing (i.e. considering volume and duration of the “stains”).

Plus, even without weighing, nothing you listed comes close to the way the Brits treated the Acadians, and that’s only the tip of the iceberg.

[MonctonRad]

Does what the Quebec government is currently perpetrating against the anglophone minority and the aboriginal populations of the province constitute cultural genocide?

Discuss...........

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Does what the Quebec government is currently perpetrating against the anglophone minority and the aboriginal populations of the province constitute cultural genocide?

Discuss...........

(Though I actually would agree that Indigenous students should be exempted from some of the provisions.)

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Does what the Quebec government is currently perpetrating against the anglophone minority and the aboriginal populations of the province constitute cultural genocide?

Discuss...........

No, it's Quebec - a "distinct society" so long as someone else is paying for everything. Attacks on anglo (& other minorities) are normal and accepted if not encouraged.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Does what the Quebec government is currently perpetrating against the anglophone minority and the aboriginal populations of the province constitute cultural genocide?

Discuss...........

Am I the only one who always, inevitably, gets the mental image of Michael Palin dressed as a peasant whining “Help! I’m being genocided!” … ?

You can observe the anti-Anglo violence inherent in the Modern Quebec system.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Am I the only one who always, inevitably, gets the mental image of Michael Palin dressed as a peasant whining “Help! I’m being genocided!” … ?

You can observe the anti-Anglo violence inherent in the Modern Quebec system.

OK, let's put it another way. If in the fullness of time, and with increasing restrictions of the usage of the English language in Quebec; that in, say 50 years, the native anglophone population in the province has been completely extirpated, would the Quebec people be sad???

Discuss.

You may say that cultural genocide is not being perpetrated, but if the end goal is to eliminate English as a viable language in Quebec, then what exactly is going on???

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

OK, let's put it another way. If in the fullness of time, and with increasing restrictions of the usage of the English language in Quebec; that in, say 50 years, the native anglophone population in the province has been completely extirpated, would the Quebec people be sad???

Discuss.

You may say that cultural genocide is not being perpetrated, but if the end goal is to eliminate English as a viable language in Quebec, then what exactly is going on???

It should be pointed out that over the past 20 years, the anglophone population of Quebec has been rising in absolute numbers, albeit slowly, despite Bill 101. We'll see if Bill 96 impacts this, though I personally doubt it. Both the anglophone and francophone proportions of Quebec's population are in decline however - the only linguistic group that is on the rise is the allophone population.

[MonctonRad]

I am sensitive to the plight of the anglophone minority in Quebec.

Outside of west island Montreal, and perhaps Gatineau, the English population of the province is in full retreat.

My sister and brother in law lived in Quebec for 40 years. He was a United Church minister, and had rural charges throughout the province, including in the Chateauguay valley, Lachute and in the townships. In every location, his congregation consisted of geriatric farmers and small business people with an average age of over 70. There was no anglophone youth. They had all left. The decline was palpable over the course of his many years in the province. The only place where there seemed to be any resilience to the anglophone population was in the Chateauguay, but that was a long time ago, and things have probably worsened since then.

These are parts of the province where there used to be a rich anglophone tradition, often extending back 200 years or longer, and, in some places, the anglophones were the original settlers. The Quebecois were actually the interlopers. Now this is all nearly gone. I find this very sad.

Some people may laugh at the concept of a cultural genocide against the anglophones of Quebec. I mean, really, we're talking about anglophones - how could they possibly be persecuted! As the dominant world culture, anglophones are the great Satan and the primary persecutor of other world cultures.

I beg to differ though. On a more intimate and local scale, cultural (or at least linguistic) genocide against anglophone communities is entirely possible, and indeed is occurring in the province of Quebec.

[Acajack]

One can argue about government sticking its nose in matters like language - I know anglo culture is allergic to this stuff which it sees as illegitimate "social engineering", but...

Ironic that even with Bill 96, anglophones in Quebec will still have more services, more institutions and more ability to live their entire lives in their language than any other francophone minority group in the country (in large part due to Quebec government services and policies), with the possible exception of those living in northeastern and northwestern New Brunswick.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Does what the Quebec government is currently perpetrating against the anglophone minority and the aboriginal populations of the province constitute cultural genocide?

Discuss...........

The Indigenous angle has been a super fucking convenient one for the opponents of Bill 96, but let's be serious for a second.

I've already stated that I think that Indigenous students could be exempted from the educational aspects of the bill.

But that's just because so many Indigenous groups in Quebec has become anglicized and lost their language (and much culture) to English. Not French.

Bill 96 as such doesn't pose a threat to Indigenous culture at all. But sure it is an issue for Indigenous kids who are now for all intents and purposes North American anglophones linguistically and (to a large degree) culturally. So I do see it as a bit unfair to effectively colonize them a second time by imposing French on them now.

But the real damage to their Indigenous character was already done generations ago. That has nothing to do with Bill 96.

They're fighting Bill 96 mostly as people who live in Quebec who speak (often only) English, not really as Indigenous people who want to retain, say, Mohawk culture.

We all may play different roles depending on the cause at hand.

[someone123]

The reporting on Bill 96 is not very good. If you look on Wikipedia or in some linked CBC stories it offers a list of proposed measures but it's not comprehensive and there isn't much analysis of what actually could or would happen (one point is "amend the Canadian constitution" which does not seem to be within the scope of Quebec provincial legislation).

Is there anything more Canadian than a Quebec language law debate that's hazy on the nuts and bolts of what is actually changing, and people start screaming about their hobbyhorse issues of oppression or government waste, and almost nobody frames things positively and asks how bilingualism might be made to work better?

People don't talk about it much but it's a lot easier to access media in any language these days and the potential quality of language education has gone way up. If you wanted you could give some 8 year olds in BC and Quebec iPads and have them talk to each other for 10 mins a day in English and French.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by someone123

The reporting on Bill 96 is not very good. If you look on Wikipedia or in some linked CBC stories it offers a list of proposed measures but it's not comprehensive and there isn't much analysis of what actually could or would happen (one point is "amend the Canadian constitution" which is not up to Quebec's legislature).

Is there anything more Canadian than a Quebec language law debate that's hazy on the nuts and bolts of what is actually changing, and people start screaming about their hobbyhorse issues of oppression or government waste, and almost nobody frames things positively and asks how bilingualism might be made to work better?

I was thinking the same thing last week as I was on google trying to figure out exactly what Bill 96 entailed. Mostly saw a bunch of not very informative click-baity headlines like "Why this student is leaving Quebec if Bill 96 is passed!" and very little detailed analysis of what the bill includes, and what exactly is going to change compared to the current situation. I'm probably one of the people least interested in language debates. I would rather read about the mating patterns of hummingbirds than multiple pages on the differences between French and Anglo language schooling. That being said, upon finding something that seemed adequately informative, I came away underwhelmed to say the least.

[someone123]

This is just a random anecdote but a while ago in Brussels I overheard somebody in a bar talking in English about how he lived there for several years and managed to get by just fine without learning French (maybe he learned Flemish). He said he was from Ontario. What are the chances?

My "days since being told that Quebec French is a different language from French French and the two are mutually unintelligible" counter sits at ~40 right now.

[Zeej]

Broadly speaking, I'm not a supporter of Bill 96 but it's impact on Quebec anglos will be minor. Something of a headache, particularly with the new powers given to the OQLF.

I find it interesting that most of the discourse here, on an English Canadian forum, is about the bill's impact on the anglo population in Quebec. Talk of cultural genocide is extreme, but I suppose by not offering many if any French language services in most of the rest of Canada, that's what happened/is happening there too?

This bill largely targets newcomers to Quebec who will have a 6 month grace period in which to receive services in English and who will have their enrollment in English language CEGEPs capped. Next, Quebec will try to open negotiations with Ottawa to fully control economic immigration into the province.

I expect the government is aware that some of the Bill 96 clauses risk being thrown out by the Supreme Court, but it's an election year and for them, these are very good optics. It's a win-win for the CAQ in courting a wide spectrum of voters and the timing is ideal. It's probably even a win for the CAQ that the Feds are joining the case against Bill 21. Franky is headed for a super majority and is going for the jugular of the PLQ and the PQ while he's at it. Love him or not, Legault is proving to be a brilliant tactician and because the CAQ has only been elected once, there are no skeletons in their closet than have sunk other governments.

[Binour]

is this still relevant? ☺
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1p52z6XEmI

[bobi]

Originally Posted by Binour

is this still relevant? ☺
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1p52z6XEmI

More than ever...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

My "days since being told that Quebec French is a different language from French French and the two are mutually unintelligible" counter sits at ~40 right now.

You hear this from time to time in Quebec too. I mean, we have ever-increasing numbers of French nationals here. One of my kids' significant other is a French exchange student.

But it's different from the condescending way that it's often pointed out in anglo circles.

More often than not it's just friendly teasing, and in some cases it's even borderline complimentary, i.e. Québécois are really unique and their own thing, which includes language to some degree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is just a random anecdote but a while ago in Brussels I overheard somebody in a bar talking in English about how he lived there for several years and managed to get by just fine without learning French (maybe he learned Flemish). He said he was from Ontario. What are the chances?
.

What are the chances that he could live for years in Brussels without learning French?

OR

What are the chances that someone who boasts of living in Brussels without learning French would be from Ontario?

[mousquet]

^ Arrête ça, c'est qu'une blague idiote. Vous ne voyez donc pas ?

Quebecers just making fun of themselves, because they're gifted with a superego and can do so.

Who knows whether English speakers are able of the same when it comes to strangers?
A lot of them go paranoid when they set a toe in foreign territory, like it's funny.

Oh my Gosh!! Aliens everywhere! Foes all around!! To arms! Help! HELP!!

Bwa ha ha.

Where is the 4th Reich? Please, let me laugh out loud...