Gas Prices

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think buying a new ICE today would be a financial mistake. They will depreciate incredibly quickly in the medium term. Lease if you must, or go with an EV.

Possibly though I would hope in 2-3 years there'd be more selection. Plug-in hybrid would also meet my needs. Local Youtuber Zach Spencer and his wife had an interesting take on this with regards to the BMW iX, basically the amount of material that went into making one iX battery pack would make 66 Toyota RAV4 hybrids. Which is better for the environment?

• Video Link

[WBC]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

You can make up a scenario to justify anything. The chances of you being correct over a person using real world numbers and facts is extremely low.

What "real numbers" are you talking about? That is my scenario - I am not making up anything. 50% of people in Metro Vancouver live in strata and there is a bunch of us live in walkable locations having little need for driving.

The savings you make on an electric car directly depend on how much you use it. If you pick a high usage scenario with 20,000KM a year, which is way above average then it makes sense to buy EV. Even then you are looking at 7 to 10 years to close gap in initial investment. If you drive less than that then it makes no financial sense to do it.

Also in a high usage scenario you need to charge your car constantly, which means that you need your own charger. Presently, that means not living in a strata.

When making financial decisions you need to look at your own specific case - not what your perception of your case is based on averages.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Which is better for the environment?

Probably the one that doesn't burn fossil fuel.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by WBC

What "real numbers" are you talking about? That is my scenario - I am not making up anything. 50% of people in Metro Vancouver live in strata and there is a bunch of us live in walkable locations having little need for driving.

Well you were responding to this well sourced post full of math:

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

20,000 km/year at 10 litres/100km = 2,000 litres per year.
2,000 litres at $1.50/litre (if that ever comes back) = $3,000 / year

The same 20,000 km / year at 15 kWh/100 km = 3,000 kWh /year
3,000 kWh at $0.12/kWh = $360

So you're saving well over $2,500 per year. That's $25,000 per 10 years. Considerably more than that at today's gas prices.

And that's not even counting the complete elimination of engine and brake maintenance.

And you made up a scenario where there's big future taxes on EVs, electricity will be much more expensive, and so on.

If you drive less than 5k/year as you state, you might want to re-examine the whole financial cost of owning a car. You're probably paying something like $2/km just to drive around. Might as well Uber everywhere.

As you're in a strata condo don't forget the money you can make renting your parking spot.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Possibly though I would hope in 2-3 years there'd be more selection. Plug-in hybrid would also meet my needs. Local Youtuber Zach Spencer and his wife had an interesting take on this with regards to the BMW iX, basically the amount of material that went into making one iX battery pack would make 66 Toyota RAV4 hybrids. Which is better for the environment?

• Video Link

this always aggravates me about comparing ICE/PHEV/EVs - use an apples to apples comparison. the specs for a BMW iX shopper would be a lot different than a toyota RAV4 shopper. a more comparable match up would be the iX versus an X5 PHEV hybrid, and even those aren't really the same class.

A nissan leaf, nissan sentra ICE and a prius prime would be a more fair comparison

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Probably the one that doesn't burn fossil fuel.

But that's one driver not burning fossil fuels vs 66 burning vastly reduced amounts while using the same amount of expensive battery materials.

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Read again. I said that I don't care if the one monthly fill up will cost me $115 or $120, as I drive so little. Not sure why you made this about affluence. Me putting maybe $1,500 to gas annually is worth not thinking about gas prices.

Not sure why some are always trying to twist everything into a class war. In my case driving a high-performance ICE is the economical and way more fun option.

my dude you have a high-performance ICE vehicle, have no need to drive it much but you are on a forum complaining bitterly about high gas prices

by any chance is it an SUV

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

But that's one driver not burning fossil fuels vs 66 burning vastly reduced amounts while using the same amount of expensive battery materials.

Proving this is a meaningless comparison.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by whatnext

But that's one driver not burning fossil fuels vs 66 burning vastly reduced amounts while using the same amount of expensive battery materials.

That's more of an argument against Lithium-ion than EVs in general. Plenty of future replacements out there that aren't as wasteful or pollution-intensive.

[Klazu]

I think it has been proven time and time again that in a full lifetime comparison there is nothing more harmful for the environment than EVs, at least before fusion reactors (maybe) become a reality. Most people can only fixate on one thing at a time and for now it happens to be the tailpipe. Most EV drivers are also paying a lot more for their transportation when the entire lifetime of the investment is considered. Subpar EVs are being sold for hefty premium.

What is most criminal, though, is that EVs are driving degeneration of car development. It is Tesla's example that has seen the introduction of large screens, that are completely unusable while driving (using windshield vipers through a screen, hello??). Nothing gets more redundant and old faster than electronics. I could maybe overlook an exterior design like Tesla's, which is stuck in the year 2015, but the trend with screens is awful. The new BMW iDrive 8 is such a step back in terms of usability, as per all reviewers, with its ugly curved screen. And don't get me started on how BMW EVs or sandwich shaped Mercedes EVs look from the outside...just fugly hideous.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I think it has been proven time and time again that in a full lifetime comparison there is nothing more harmful for the environment than EVs

Keep thinking - it's a myth. Or a lie. It's been proven time and time again in recent studies that in almost the entire world ICE cars are more harmful than EVs in a lifetime emissions comparison. For example this study, or this one, or this one (and there are many, many more).

And in BC, with almost 100% green electricity, there's even less harm from EVs.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I think it has been proven time and time again that in a full lifetime comparison there is nothing more harmful for the environment than EVs...

False.

Yes, manufacturing EVs has a greater environmental impact than ICE vehicles, but this is more than made up for by their far lower emissions to operate, regardless of the source of the electricity used to power them. This is especially true in places like BC where virtually all electricity comes from green generation.

Don't forget that the environment impact of burning gasoline goes far beyond what happens in the car itself - it also includes all of the costs of drilling, extracting, refining and transporting that gasoline.

Originally Posted by Klazu

What is most criminal, though, is that EVs are driving degeneration of car development. It is Tesla's example that has seen the introduction of large screens...

I hate Tesla's screen-based UI too. But you can't use that to make a generic argument about EVs - the vast majority of EVs designed by traditional car manufacturers use traditional hard controls, and ICE vehicles certainly aren't immune from getting the Tesla screen treatment.

If you don't like a particular EV design, there are more and more alternatives to choose from each year. Just buy something else, same as you'd do for an ICE vehicle whose design annoys you.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I think it has been proven time and time again that in a full lifetime comparison there is nothing more harmful for the environment than EVs, at least before fusion reactors (maybe) become a reality. Most people can only fixate on one thing at a time and for now it happens to be the tailpipe. Most EV drivers are also paying a lot more for their transportation when the entire lifetime of the investment is considered. Subpar EVs are being sold for hefty premium.

What is most criminal, though, is that EVs are driving degeneration of car development. It is Tesla's example that has seen the introduction of large screens, that are completely unusable while driving (using windshield vipers through a screen, hello??). Nothing gets more redundant and old faster than electronics. I could maybe overlook an exterior design like Tesla's, which is stuck in the year 2015, but the trend with screens is awful. The new BMW iDrive 8 is such a step back in terms of usability, as per all reviewers, with its ugly curved screen. And don't get me started on how BMW EVs or sandwich shaped Mercedes EVs look from the outside...just fugly hideous.

From day one, the Tesla was dubbed the Rolling iPad. It is anything but a driving enthusiast's car.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I think it has been proven time and time again that in a full lifetime comparison there is nothing more harmful for the environment than EVs, at least before fusion reactors (maybe) become a reality.

Your posts are reaching Vin-levels of self parody.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Keep thinking - it's a myth. Or a lie.

It's a lie propagated by oil and gas companies to fool rubes. These are the same people who told us cigarettes weren't addictive or bad for us.

What's also important is that worldwide oil usage gives trillions of dollars to some of the worst countries on the planet.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It's a lie propagated by oil and gas companies to fool rubes. These are the same people who told us cigarettes weren't addictive or bad for us.

What's also important is that worldwide oil usage gives trillions of dollars to some of the worst countries on the planet.

Yes. It's a myth that EVs have a worse lifecycle effect on the planet if you 'heard it was true' and didn't bother to check. It's a lie if you know it's not true, but keep saying it anyway.

Technology is evolving fast so that batteries will probably need less lithium in future, (and no nickel, manganese or cobalt) for example sulphur batteries (with three times the range and better low temperature performance). Now that more carmakers are abandoning ICE vehicle manufacturing in the near to mid term, the R&D dollars are available to improve future EV performance even more.

Electricity generation in Europe and North America (and now Australia too) is seeing a significant shift in moving away from fossil fuels and towards renewables, so the lifecycle operation will be cleaner on those continents too. That's obviously about reducing greenhouse gases, but the reduced air pollution and lower cost of operation are a bonus too.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

....I hate Tesla's screen-based UI too. But you can't use that to make a generic argument about EVs - the vast majority of EVs designed by traditional car manufacturers use traditional hard controls, and ICE vehicles certainly aren't immune from getting the Tesla screen treatment.

If you don't like a particular EV design, there are more and more alternatives to choose from each year. Just buy something else, same as you'd do for an ICE vehicle whose design annoys you.

Tesla and others like VW who use just touch screens have made operating a vehicle more dangerous. How can any system which requires you to take your eyes off the road ever have been allowed by regulators? It is ridiculous.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I think it has been proven time and time again that in a full lifetime comparison there is nothing more harmful for the environment than EVs, at least before fusion reactors (maybe) become a reality. Most people can only fixate on one thing at a time and for now it happens to be the tailpipe. Most EV drivers are also paying a lot more for their transportation when the entire lifetime of the investment is considered. Subpar EVs are being sold for hefty premium.

What is most criminal, though, is that EVs are driving degeneration of car development. It is Tesla's example that has seen the introduction of large screens, that are completely unusable while driving (using windshield vipers through a screen, hello??). Nothing gets more redundant and old faster than electronics. I could maybe overlook an exterior design like Tesla's, which is stuck in the year 2015, but the trend with screens is awful. The new BMW iDrive 8 is such a step back in terms of usability, as per all reviewers, with its ugly curved screen. And don't get me started on how BMW EVs or sandwich shaped Mercedes EVs look from the outside...just fugly hideous.

Dude, you bought a "competition" SUV. Whatever the heck that means. It's not like an SUV would be allowed at most race events because they're prone to flip rather than skid. The extra body cladding and stiffer springs are probably like 95% profit margin for a company like BMW. Nothing says performance like a tonne of extra body mass and a high centre of gravity, but no real offroad ability. BMW has been all downhill since atleast the early 2000s, it's not just a screen or some other random crap. It's all bad.

A truck-thing like your BMW will consume around 30,000 L of gas in it's useful lifetime. It's really not hard to do better environmentally than that. The tonne or so of battery metals used in an EV might get used 5 or 10 times over before being lost. The
20-some-odd tonnes of fuel used in your car are just gone, leaving a bunch of shitty byproducts directly into the environment directly beside the end user. The enviromental payback period is like a year for most EVs, assuming no recycling.

If you're complaining about the wiper controls and stereo, basically you've lost the arguement. You can buy an EV with normal controls, it isn't that hard (aside from demand which is producing waitlists).

Cost is a valid concern, as the capital cost is steep, but is mostly balanced by reduced op-ex. I'm not sure why you're so worried about that though, you spent a bunch of money on a badge kit and some fancy rims for a car with no performance pedigree. As someone who loves fast cars, I find that shit hilarious.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by s211

From day one, the Tesla was dubbed the Rolling iPad. It is anything but a driving enthusiast's car.

It handles better than or equal to the current BMW 3, so it decidedly is a enthusiasts car.

Nobody ever made than distinction based on how the climate controls or stereo are setup.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

It handles better than or equal to the current BMW 3, so it decidedly is a enthusiasts car.

Nobody ever made than distinction based on how the climate controls or stereo are setup.

I think for some people the distinction between a fun car to drive and one that isn't is how loud it goes "vroom vroom". Maybe electric cars need to add speakers under the hood to attractive those cavemen.