Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While I tend to agree, the extension to Kanata will make it easier for those in Kanata/Stittsville to commute to the Kanata North business park. Up until the closure of Moodie station, the best way for me to do that by transit would be to take the bus through the greenbelt to Moodie and then turn around and go back through the greenbelt to Kanata. Now the transfer needs to be done at Bayshore again (and Google at least sometimes suggests Pinecrest).

Granted we could build a transfer facility at Eagleson that spans the 417 without extending the O-Train, but I suspect that would cost almost as much as the extension.

The west extension to Terry Fox is the only part of Stage 3 that should be moved forward. Its a decent enough deal for 1-1.5 billion. The rest should be BRT (and we should be asking higher levels of government for funding for these BRTs) -- so much can be done cheaply for the equivalent cost of Barrhaven LRT: Greenbank BRT, Chapman Mills/Riverside South BRT extentions, Cumberland BRT, Baseline BRT, Carling Avenue, March Road BRT, etc. etc.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

The west extension to Terry Fox is the only part of Stage 3 that should be moved forward. Its a decent enough deal for 1-1.5 billion. The rest should be BRT and we should be asking higher levels of government for funding for these BRTs -- so much can be done cheaply for the equivalent cost of Barrhaven LRT (Greenbank BRT, Chapman Mills/Riverside South BRT extentions, Cumberland BRT, Baseline BRT, Carling Avenue, etc. etc.)

I tend to agree, until we have a better idea of what our future transit requirements are and adjust accordingly. I have never been a fan of extending beyond Terry Fox. As for Barrhaven, there are pros and cons and delaying things a bit isn't a bad idea.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The Confederation Line, Stage 1 and 2, are/were essential to deal with capacity issues along the Transitway however, I agree that we need to re-focus our priorities in the face of a new reality. From here forward, we should build the system for those who use transit as a way to get around on a day to day basis, not just at rush-hour. The Baseline BRT-lite, Carling transit priority (or even a level-up to BRT-lite or rail) and better service for high-density, mixed-income, urban axies like Rideau, Montreal and Bank would do that.

The City however, prefers sticking its head in the sand and double down on commuter focused Stage 3 over anything else, possibly even ready to sabotage its neighbour Gatineau for funding.

The real problem is that for so long, most cities tend to only think of moving people in and out of downtown from the suburbs. This is because they were only concerned with gridlock, which tends to only happen during the rush hours.

The other thing that is done to the detriment of the system is dong things as cheaply as possible.For example, why didn't they build the line at a full metro/subway design? Because this way was cheaper. Ottawa should not invest more than a reserve lane in BRT. doing so is cheapening out. If you are upset at this, you are part of the problem that caused the mess that saw the LRT shut down for weeks.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While I tend to agree, the extension to Kanata will make it easier for those in Kanata/Stittsville to commute to the Kanata North business park. Up until the closure of Moodie station, the best way for me to do that by transit would be to take the bus through the greenbelt to Moodie and then turn around and go back through the greenbelt to Kanata. Now the transfer needs to be done at Bayshore again (and Google at least sometimes suggests Pinecrest).

Granted we could build a transfer facility at Eagleson that spans the 417 without extending the O-Train, but I suspect that would cost almost as much as the extension.

I agree Kanata North should also be prioritize over Stage 3 (at least beyond Terry Fox and Fallowfield). It's ridiculous how such an important employment hub is so poorly served within its own community.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It seems that the downtown capacity that we have built will never be needed especially after listening to the news today about the wishes of public servants to never return to downtown offices, at least not daily.

If anything, our city's transportation needs are going to be more diffused than ever, something that the rigidity (and the enormous cost) of LRT cannot address effectively.

I am not against LRT but I can see Sauvanto's point. We have foregone many other transit improvements to pay for the downtown focused Confederation Line. The city cannot possibly pay for the other transit improvements that will truly speed up transit trips, such as the Baseline BRT and many others.

So, we have paid for a system to take people to offices that have mostly emptied out. Now, it appears that those buildings will need to be repurposed, and this will take many years to accomplish. Even then, the need to travel to downtown will decline but the need to move between suburbs will continue to increase.

The lack of peak ridership doesn't change the reality they moving riders in diesel buses with a max capacity of 70, is incredibly inefficient. The LRT was supposed to substantially reduce deadheading mileage and move a large chunk of revenue passenger miles to a highly efficient mode. The O-Train does that.

What does change, however, is any scenario where LRT was going to be built, with a high dependency on commuters for ridership. This is true of most suburban rail expansion in major North American cities. It's particularly true in Ottawa. The argument for Stage 3, any future Stage 4 and double tracking of Trillium, now look more distant.

At this point, the best use of capital is to electrify and grow the bus fleet, so that there's more regular usage in the suburbs.

[Sauvanto]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I agree Kanata North should also be prioritize over Stage 3 (at least beyond Terry Fox and Fallowfield). It's ridiculous how such an important employment hub is so poorly served within its own community.

Absolutely agree. The March BRT is probably the project I'm most invested in. Unfortunately it won't happen until 2030, because there's no way to convey our message upwards, which is a big sad...

I've stopped taking transit recently, and I don't blame anyone in Kanata for sticking to cars as well. It's insane that a 25 minute drive to downtown now takes 1h30. Lets say you try to cross the 417 from Kanata North to Kanata South, brace yourself for an hour long bus ride instead of a 15minute drive.

I've timed it, Morgan's Grant to Eagleson: 6 minutes drive. Take a bus, and you're in for a 30 minutes ride (+slap on a solid 10minutes of waiting time...)

[rakerman]

I've updated my blog post Ottawa LRT Stage 3 maps.

It includes the best maps I could find of the approved Kanata LRT route (none of the maps are very good) as well as maps of the approved Barrhaven LRT route and the section of the Barrhaven LRT route that may be realigned this year depending on the May 30, 2022 Transportation Committee recommendations and City Council's decision.

[Mikeed]

I believe very strongly that Stage 3 needs to be frozen immediately and rethought.

I think the city needs to shift gears to expanding BRT and utilizing BRT to solve the decentralized nature of what we need from transit in Ottawa moving forward.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

I believe very strongly that Stage 3 needs to be frozen immediately and rethought.

I think the city needs to shift gears to expanding BRT and utilizing BRT to solve the decentralized nature of what we need from transit in Ottawa moving forward.

BRT is not a solution to the problems of transit in Ottawa, unless it was true BRT like the parts of the Transitways that Ottawa had that no personal vehicles could travel. Otherwise you end up with the Central Transitway woes all over again.

The old BRT served the city ok for 30 years. Learn from that. Do better and don't double pay for infrastructure.

[originalmuffins]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

I believe very strongly that Stage 3 needs to be frozen immediately and rethought.

I think the city needs to shift gears to expanding BRT and utilizing BRT to solve the decentralized nature of what we need from transit in Ottawa moving forward.

Stage 3 is already going to take forever to arrive. So I would say no, it doesnt need to be frozen. Barrhaven and Kanata are two of the most important suburbs to connect to the rest of the city. It's beyond 200k people served lol.

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally Posted by originalmuffins

Stage 3 is already going to take forever to arrive. So I would say no, it doesnt need to be frozen. Barrhaven and Kanata are two of the most important suburbs to connect to the rest of the city. It's beyond 200k people served lol.

I hope the capital investment required to extend LRT into Barrhaven and Kanata will be based on facts informed by the post-pandemic reality and consideration of opportunity cost.

But naturally the matter will become a political football, Ottawa's version of the Scarborough subway. Barrhaven and Kanata deserve LRT! Even if it's just three stops each

Cynicism aside, an advantage of extending LRT to the 'burbs might be increased suburban buy-in to the existing urban consensus that additional investments in citywide transit are a good thing.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson

I hope the capital investment required to extend LRT into Barrhaven and Kanata will be based on facts informed by the post-pandemic reality and consideration of opportunity cost.

But naturally the matter will become a political football, Ottawa's version of the Scarborough subway. Barrhaven and Kanata deserve LRT! Even if it's just three stops each

Cynicism aside, an advantage of extending LRT to the 'burbs might be increased suburban buy-in to the existing urban consensus that additional investments in citywide transit are a good thing.

If, and that is a big IF, the federal Liberals get back in, one could expect that a Phase 3 LRT will happen to try to meet carbon emissions as a way for people to give up a car. Most people won't give up a car for a bus, but might for a train.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

BRT is not a solution to the problems of transit in Ottawa, unless it was true BRT like the parts of the Transitways that Ottawa had that no personal vehicles could travel. Otherwise you end up with the Central Transitway woes all over again.

The old BRT served the city ok for 30 years. Learn from that. Do better and don't double pay for infrastructure.

Issues of the central Transitway were many. They had bus lanes, but that did not prevent jack asses in taxis, delivery trucks of private vehicles from using or blocking them. Furthermore, no actual transit priority was actually implemented (at traffic lights, for example). The biggest issues was volume, with 200 buses per hour per direction.

A properly built centre median BRT-lite, that prevents anyone or anything other than buses and emergency vehicles, proper transit priority and much lower volumes (40-60 buses per hour per direction) would be very much manageable.

I much prefer spending a billion dollars for 30 kilometers of proper BRT-lite on Baseline-Heron, Kanata North and Cumberland than $6B to convert perfectly functional BRT networks (and in some cases, full BRT) in Kanata and Barrhaven. Extensions to the edges, fine (and maybe Terry Fox for Kanata), but not as proposed.

I wish that we would have extend to Eagleson instead of the relatively pointless Trim station with serious accessibility problems.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Issues of the central Transitway were many. They had bus lanes, but that did not prevent jack asses in taxis, delivery trucks of private vehicles from using or blocking them. Furthermore, no actual transit priority was actually implemented (at traffic lights, for example). The biggest issues was volume, with 200 buses per hour per direction.

A properly built centre median BRT-lite, that prevents anyone or anything other than buses and emergency vehicles, proper transit priority and much lower volumes (40-60 buses per hour per direction) would be very much manageable.

I much prefer spending a billion dollars for 30 kilometers of proper BRT-lite on Baseline-Heron, Kanata North and Cumberland than $6B to convert perfectly functional BRT networks (and in some cases, full BRT) in Kanata and Barrhaven. Extensions to the edges, fine (and maybe Terry Fox for Kanata), but not as proposed.

I wish that we would have extend to Eagleson instead of the relatively pointless Trim station with serious accessibility problems.

Agreed! Given that the MSF ended up being west of Moodie, Stage 2 ended up doing all the grade separation work at the Moodie interchange. Extending to Terry Fox would only require a new grade separation at the Eagleson Exchange (Kanata Ave. had a transit underpass built when they built the Queensway overpass). As a result an extension to Terry Fox would have received significantly more utilization than the Trim extension at a similar (if not lower) cost.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

A properly built centre median BRT-lite, that prevents anyone or anything other than buses and emergency vehicles, proper transit priority and much lower volumes (40-60 buses per hour per direction) would be very much manageable.

Until you have some "jack 🞵🞵🞵" driver block the intersection because of the traffic.

I agree with express buses in reserved lanes. However, for a city of 1 million, it is time to seriously act on building the rail system up.

[HighwayStar]

Can we please ask the very basic question of, “how many people outside of the 9-5 PS commuters will actually use a train to get from Kanata to downtown?”. Sure.. easier to get to Algonquin, Bayshore, etc, but the 2 Billion $ question is…. do we *really* need all that capacity from 5am to 1am?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Can we please ask the very basic question of, “how many people outside of the 9-5 PS commuters will actually use a train to get from Kanata to downtown?”. Sure.. easier to get to Algonquin, Bayshore, etc, but the 2 Billion $ question is…. do we *really* need all that capacity from 5am to 1am?

What if you live out there and want to party? Id say that a train to/from downtown is better than a bus, especially at the end of the night.

[Athens]

Travel and development patterns will change heavily with access to higher order transit. It may not be worth it immediately, but having a high order transportation option to all 3 off the city’s major suburbs will lead to an increase in transit usage. If your destination is anywhere on the LRT it is likely much more convenient than driving.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Athens

Travel and development patterns will change heavily with access to higher order transit. It may not be worth it immediately, but having a high order transportation option to all 3 off the city’s major suburbs will lead to an increase in transit usage. If your destination is anywhere on the LRT it is likely much more convenient than driving.

True, but most of our current LRT plans are based on this approach. It's well past time to start bringing higher order transit to inner urban areas where the demand already exists.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by phil235

True, but most of our current LRT plans are based on this approach. It's well past time to start bringing higher order transit to inner urban areas where the demand already exists.

When you have a branch line dumping on one central section, what happened with the Central Transitway will happen with the LRT. When that happens, one can expect that a new LRT line downtown will be built. You are also ignoring the possibility that Gatineau's future LRT may be built to go downtown and it will add a new line downtown.