Hamilton Roads

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

The problem is that Farr says there's enough space, but there just isn't. Kicking people out of parks (a place myself and very few advocates wanted them in either) only makes sense if they've got somewhere for them to go. I didn't want them in the park near my house either, but unless we've got a solution, it's just pushing them into a different space and a different neighbourhood. I live downtown, the homeless population that sleeps in parks, under bridges and roams the streets hasn't shrunk after we kicked them out of parks, heck some still sleep in tents in parks. It was a power play to fix an issue by pushing it somewhere else. That's not actually a solution, if you're just shoving the mess in the closet and under the rug. Wilson and Nann recognized that simply tearing down tents doesn't solve homelessness, and while Nann isn't my favourite politician on Earth, she has been doing a lot of work to increase homeless shelter spaces in her ward.

Violating the no camping by-law and leaving used needles, feces, and other things in the park is not the solution. Also, crime (and yes, violent crime) increased massively last summer. There was literally multiple murders in those encampments. They were not safe places for anyone. The argument that removing the encampments is just pushing the problem elsewhere has no teeth. We live in a society of law and order, and yes, even by-laws need to be obeyed. I encourage you to watch the entire court injunction trial that happened last fall to get a better understanding of the actual situation on the ground. I did. Something had to be done, and I am extremely glad it did. Should Farr run in my ward again, he has my vote.

[ScreamingViking]

Main is about 15m wide between the curbs where it has 5 lanes, and east of Sherman it narrows to 4.

2-way conversion needs to be done, but the available options that include pedestrian and other improvements while keeping it as a 4-lane arterial will be limited.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

The argument that removing the encampments is just pushing the problem elsewhere has no teeth.

I don't know if they were there before, but lately I've been noticing smaller more isolated "camps" that are less visible -- next to the CP tracks near the cemetery on the outskirts of Kay Drage Park, other places along rail corridors in the west end that are near road bridges, and there were a couple of tents on a little treed spit in the west harbour beside the channel under the High Level Bridge. I wouldn't be surprised if there are a bunch throughout the Red Hill Valley and other places like that which are more secluded.

[mattgrande]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

There was literally multiple murders in those encampments.

As far as I can tell, there was one, the one near Stinson: https://www.thespec.com/news/crime/2021/12/31/hamiltons-19-homicides-in-2021-was-a-record-high.html

[drpgq]

There was a stabbing at the Club 77 park, but no one died.

[TheHonestMaple]

Apparently they are implementing the new truck route signs starting next week. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Also, I can't seem to find an updated map, anyone care to share?

[PaperSun]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

Apparently they are implementing the new truck route signs starting next week. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Also, I can't seem to find an updated map, anyone care to share?

Pretty sure it's related to the council approved updates to the truck route master plan that the previous council approved already.

https://www.hamilton.ca/city-council/plans-strategies/master-plans-studies/truck-route-master-plan

I believe that's it.

[TheRitsman]

As someone who lives downtown I am ecstatic. This is something that the Cycling Committee recommended in a citizen committee report as well as large trucks have a significant impact on safety and comfort of cyclists. In addition it will make downtown more hospitable and safe to pedestrians and storefronts, while also reducing the total weight load of our roads, reducing the destruction of our lower city roads that everyone complains rightfully so about.

This also seems to need to be pointed out: this will have zero effect on local deliveries. If a truck needs to go downtown to attend to a business downtown, they can leave the truck routes. These routes are designed for non-local traffic. This will only stop shortcutting massive trailer trucks from cutting through the city when they should and could use the highway.

[SteelTown]

Truck Route Masterplan:

https://spatialsolutions.maps.arcgis.com...html?id=931813298e6047669e32580fe3db4515

[PaperSun]

It will be interesting to see how enforcement plays out. Hopefully the City and Police have come to an agreement for a enforcement blitz once the signs are up.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by PaperSun

It will be interesting to see how enforcement plays out. Hopefully the City and Police have come to an agreement for a enforcement blitz once the signs are up.

This, the shear number of trucks will make it difficult to police. Let's hope they do! And also, do we really expect truck drivers to tell the truth about their route if pulled over? Pretty easy to just say they are making a "local delivery/pickup", how would a cop even prove they were not telling the truth.

My only concern with this plan is Cannon. I feel like it will only concentrate trucks on that stretch of road. Cannon and James already feels dangerous as hell.

I really wish the city didn't cave in, and just said NO trucks allowed on city roads. If they want to get from the industrial sector to the 403, Burlington Street to QEW or RH are the only options, sorry. Why didn't they just do that?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

This, the shear number of trucks will make it difficult to police. Let's hope they do! And also, do we really expect truck drivers to tell the truth about their route if pulled over? Pretty easy to just say they are making a "local delivery/pickup", how would a cop even prove they were not telling the truth.

My only concern with this plan is Cannon. I feel like it will only concentrate trucks on that stretch of road. Cannon and James already feels dangerous as hell.

I really wish the city didn't cave in, and just said NO trucks allowed on city roads. If they want to get from the industrial sector to the 403, Burlington Street to QEW or RH are the only options, sorry. Why didn't they just do that?

Basically no trucks are permitted downtown at all, other than a small loop down York / Cannon / Bay to service the couple of industrial users northwest of downtown.

The 4-axle limit is pretty low, and provided there aren't massive amounts of trucks fleeting the rules, should result in the level of trucks downtown being closer to that in which you see in Downtown Toronto. It will fully eliminate most of the trucks rolling through downtown right now which are heading for the port.

The whole debacle shows why the perimeter road really probably should have been built. Getting trucks out of downtown was the primary intent of it, as well as just generally plugging a key gap in the road network. If we had the perimeter road it would be a lot easier to make changes to King and Main through downtown as traffic could detour elsewhere easier.

https://hsrriders.wordpress.com/2014/10/28/the-missing-link-the-unbuilt-perimeter-road/

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Basically no trucks are permitted downtown at all, other than a small loop down York / Cannon / Bay to service the couple of industrial users northwest of downtown.

The 4-axle limit is pretty low, and provided there aren't massive amounts of trucks fleeting the rules, should result in the level of trucks downtown being closer to that in which you see in Downtown Toronto. It will fully eliminate most of the trucks rolling through downtown right now which are heading for the port.

The whole debacle shows why the perimeter road really probably should have been built. Getting trucks out of downtown was the primary intent of it, as well as just generally plugging a key gap in the road network. If we had the perimeter road it would be a lot easier to make changes to King and Main through downtown as traffic could detour elsewhere easier.

https://hsrriders.wordpress.com/2014/10/28/the-missing-link-the-unbuilt-perimeter-road/

Yep that extension of Burlington street really should have been built. The trench section probably would have a looked a lot like highway 8 in waterloo.

I suspect this will eventually be built once the population explodes in Hamilton, and the whole industrial sector M and N are redeveloped. I don't think the volume of trucks will be avoidable at that point and action will need to be taken by the province.

[TheRitsman]

This will never get built in the current urban planning context. This city will never build what many cities are now removing or fighting to get rid of. Highways ruined America inner cities, and I'm glad that while Main and King have somewhat ruined Hamilton as fill-in highways, their use of the regular street space means it can be fixed.

They'll never cut the entire north end off from the rest of the city by way of an incredibly loud highway, nor will homeowners nearby allow it, as they including me will fight it tooth and nail.

I don't think it's needed either. The reality is that Burlington street is fully capable of moving trucks to the highways and the highways are fully capable of handing the increased demand at most times of the day. It will also move trucks that cause expensive damage to our roads onto provincially funded highways, and better built municipal highways.

I for one am also glad the 1963 plan to build this highway never happened because my house would be an off ramp and James St N would be next to a highway: https://twitter.com/JasonThorne_RPP/status/1525443512430481409?t=1_ZieGWR3W_EI7x24QXSfA&s=19

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

This will never get built in the current urban planning context. This city will never build what many cities are now removing or fighting to get rid of. Highways ruined America inner cities, and I'm glad that while Main and King have somewhat ruined Hamilton as fill-in highways, their use of the regular street space means it can be fixed.

They'll never cut the entire north end off from the rest of the city by way of an incredibly loud highway, nor will homeowners nearby allow it, as they including me will fight it tooth and nail.

I don't think it's needed either. The reality is that Burlington street is fully capable of moving trucks to the highways and the highways are fully capable of handing the increased demand at most times of the day. It will also move trucks that cause expensive damage to our roads onto provincially funded highways, and better built municipal highways.

I for one am also glad the 1963 plan to build this highway never happened because my house would be an off ramp and James St N would be next to a highway: https://twitter.com/JasonThorne_RPP/status/1525443512430481409?t=1_ZieGWR3W_EI7x24QXSfA&s=19

That image you shared is not the plan that insertnamehere linked. I don't think anyone would support that expressway right through the old city haha. That's insane.

The 1990 proposal was much more modest, involved tunnels and trenched roads (no at grade road at all). and in fact, it's quite clear that the city has kept that land open for a future roadway. It's not really a highway at all, it's just an extension of Burlington Street to the 403 making use of the rail corridor.

[Innsertnamehere]

I was more so referencing the 1990’s version of the plan which had it tunneled for half its length and was more of an arterial road than a real highway. No need for it to be some honking freeway, just a smaller arterial with perhaps a few underpasses around the GO station. I’d be supportive of removing all interchanges on it and making it a straight shot from Wellington to the 403, to be honest.

Honestly the 1990’s plan was very similar to the type of urban road infrastructure you see in Europe, particularly the Netherlands, which allows traffic to bypass cores (instead of through it on Main and King Sts) on arterial roads with intermediate levels of grade separation and access limits. It’s a lot lower impact than American style mega freeways, and provides an opportunity to really improve street designs in cities as those roads (like say, Cannon and Main) don’t have to serve through traffic any longer.

Agreed it’ll never get built today though.

[TheRitsman]

I'd be supportive of a tunneled or covered bypass to York, but the 1990 plan didn't plan to use the rail corridor, is planned to use the grass stretch along Strachan which had most of it's buildings demolished as a result.

Even just an above ground arterial here would be disasterous for access to the North end. Compared to the relatively quiet Strachan, being replaced by a likely 4 lane road with street lights would be awful, and more car infrastructure adjacent to a multi-million dollar regional transit line is just a non-starter in the current urban planning climate.

We will likely continue to see massively expanded transit and cycling services and more walkability come to the GTHA before we see this kind of 20th century plan come to the forefront of any legitimate discussion. As our province and city continues to densify at an incredible rate, we will see the urban sensibilities take hold far more than suburban or rural nonsensibilities.

The average urbanite wants safe walkable and transit friendly neighbourhoods and this will further be seen in our cities planning efforts, not less.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by TheRitsman

I'd be supportive of a tunneled or covered bypass to York, but the 1990 plan didn't plan to use the rail corridor, is planned to use the grass stretch along Strachan which had most of it's buildings demolished as a result.

Even just an above ground arterial here would be disasterous for access to the North end. Compared to the relatively quiet Strachan, being replaced by a likely 4 lane road with street lights would be awful, and more car infrastructure adjacent to a multi-million dollar regional transit line is just a non-starter in the current urban planning climate.

We will likely continue to see massively expanded transit and cycling services and more walkability come to the GTHA before we see this kind of 20th century plan come to the forefront of any legitimate discussion. As our province and city continues to densify at an incredible rate, we will see the urban sensibilities take hold far more than suburban or rural nonsensibilities.

The average urbanite wants safe walkable and transit friendly neighbourhoods and this will further be seen in our cities planning efforts, not less.

I suspect that the trenched section was planned to look more like Highway 8 through the south end of Kitchener.

I agree though, it would be the opposite direction of current planning efforts.

But I think the truck issue will likely need to be solved eventually, and i'm not so confident in the current plan. But I guess we'll see in the coming months!

[ScreamingViking]

It could be a two-lane (1 each way) truck-only road. No need to have it serve general purpose traffic.

As I recall the connection to the 403 was a key issue... as was tunneling under the Hamilton Cemetery. CN would probably get its knickers in a twist. I think those issues remain, but they're not insurmountable.

So it would be a huge cost. But then so are the accumulative damages to our roads from heavy commercial through-vehicles, and the social costs of daily living and activities in close proximity to them.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

It could be a two-lane (1 each way) truck-only road. No need to have it serve general purpose traffic.

As I recall the connection to the 403 was a key issue... as was tunneling under the Hamilton Cemetery. CN would probably get its knickers in a twist. I think those issues remain, but they're not insurmountable.

So it would be a huge cost. But then so are the accumulative damages to our roads from heavy commercial through-vehicles, and the social costs of daily living and activities in close proximity to them.

Or you could just ban trucks over 4 axles in the lower city, which is what they've done starting next month.