SAN DIEGO | Boom Rundown, Vol. 2

[HurricaneHugo]

Originally Posted by SDfan

Will O' Wisp, where are you to make sense of the city's new plans for the trolley extension and the crazy 700ft+ tower they are envisioning for city hall??

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2022/04/13/g...ion-and-a-regional-transit-hub-downtown/

Where are you getting the 700 ft height?

Also I'm not sure why the Regional Hub is needed but it seems like they have big plans for it (subway line?).

[HurricaneHugo]

City staff pick preferred Sports Arena bid

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2022/04/12/city-staff-picks-preferred-sports-arena-bid/

[SAN Man]

Originally Posted by mello

I always joke that they look like highrises in Baghdad. Outdated is being generous, there is one that isn't properly painted all its missing is bullet holes and some shelling scars and it could be in Beirut.

Accurately described, haha!
San Diego deserves better, we should have a landmark city hall.

[SDfan]

Originally Posted by HurricaneHugo

Where are you getting the 700 ft height?

Also I'm not sure why the Regional Hub is needed but it seems like they have big plans for it (subway line?).

It's not clearly articulated, but if you look at the renders, based on the towers that already exist nearby, the two smaller towers are about 450-500ft tall, and the central tower is about 200-300ft taller than those. I don't know what city hall/downtown partnership/SANDAG is cooking, but it looks big.

[Will O' Wisp]

Originally Posted by SDfan

Will O' Wisp, where are you to make sense of the city's new plans for the trolley extension and the crazy 700ft+ tower they are envisioning for city hall??

https://voiceofsandiego.org/2022/04/13/g...ion-and-a-regional-transit-hub-downtown/

I was wondering when that press release would coming out...

At this point everyone should know that SANDAG is totally broke. The whole Grand Central Station concept relied on some generous developer agreeing to build a massive new office for NAVWAR and a multi-billion dollar transit hub for SANDAG, all for the privilege of being allowed to build a handful of skyscrapers when they could do the same thing less than a mile away in downtown for far less hassle.

Sadly, such kindhearted corporate citizens are in short supply these days so there weren't any takers. The Navy got sick of waiting around for its new office, so they gave SANDAG the boot.

Not all was lost though, because the process got the Port, the Airport, and MTS talking. And we figured out that the Port has land, the Airport has money, and MTS has a transit system. Truly a match made in heaven.

The end result probably isn't going to wow you (although with any luck they'll be a pretty cool observation deck), but it makes far more sense from a cost/benefit perspective. I've said before that airports aren't nearly the ridership generators people think they are, there's little point spending billions and billions connecting them to transit. So when you see the renderings this summer, try and think less about the glorious monument to public transit you've lost and more about how the dollars we save can go towards something that actually gets people out of their cars. Plus, you know, this actually has a chance of getting built.

Honestly, I think the only purpose of this "downtown Grand Central Station" is to avoid admitting the NAVWAR Grand Central Station failed. Even if it isn't, it's on a thirty-years-to-never timeline. Allegedly it involves tunneling under half of downtown, which should be neat. I'd expect that skyscraper to get shortened if it ever gets a serious rendering, no way that would get past CALTRANS.

As for why this is suddenly in the news now when everything I've talked about has been going on for months? Well, last week Ikhrata got caught using the company card to wine and dine various local bigwigs, and he'd rather see this story when you google "SANDAG" than that one.

[roletand]

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp

The end result probably isn't going to wow you (although with any luck they'll be a pretty cool observation deck), but it makes far more sense from a cost/benefit perspective. I've said before that airports aren't nearly the ridership generators people think they are, there's little point spending billions and billions connecting them to transit. So when you see the renderings this summer, try and think less about the glorious monument to public transit you've lost and more about how the dollars we save can go towards something that actually gets people out of their cars. Plus, you know, this actually has a chance of getting built.

Thanks for the breakdown! I'm pretty okay with it not wowing me as long as I see shovels in the ground within the next few years.

Understated in the press release and subsequent articles is that SANDAG is finally going to build a downtown bus layover facility. I always found it odd that MTS lines A St. with parked busses and porta-potties, but I guess it's always been a band-aid until a permanent facility is built.

[IrvineNative]

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp

I
I've said before that airports aren't nearly the ridership generators people think they are, there's little point spending billions and billions connecting them to transit. So when you see the renderings this summer, try and think less about the glorious monument to public transit you've lost and more about how the dollars we save can go towards something that actually gets people out of their cars. Plus, you know, this actually has a chance of getting built.

I agree airport rail links, as Alon Levy says, are overrated, but overrated doesn't mean bad.

I think San Diego's APM should get a lot more airport traveling mode share than other air rail links, simply because it is much closer to all the tourist destinations than most other airports are. Of course, APMs are 100% grade separated by nature, and this APM would likely have trains every 4 minutes to Santa Fe Depot, a very good frequency, so ridership should be high.

When SANDAG estimates the APM at $4 Billion, it's expensive but you can know the APM's going to be far far better than the crappy Oakland Airport Connector, which gets under 3000 riders pre COVID. Why? Because BART cheaped out, spending only $150 million per mile. The Oakland Airport Connector is only capable of 4.5 minute frequencies max and its trains have no on board motors, rather they're pulled by cables, which means far cheaper construction but also lower top speeds AND requires the trains to stop midway not to pick up any passengers but simply to switch cables! And of course, the Oakland Airport Connector doesn't give you a one seat ride even to Downtown Oakland!

By contrast, SANDAG's APM will cost around $750 M per mile, meaning they are NOT building a crappy cable-pulled APM but rather they will build an APM with onboard motors with higher top speeds, higher frequencies (of up to every 100 seconds), and no stopping just to switch cables.

Now SANDAG needs to figure a way to expand the APM past the airport to serve Liberty Station, Sports Arena, and NAVWAR.

[Streamliner]

They should simply paint the APMs bright red and call it the "Airport Trolley". I don't think the public will care much about what type of rolling stock they're riding on as long as they all feel the same.

[IrvineNative]

Originally Posted by Streamliner

They should simply paint the APMs bright red and call it the "Airport Trolley". I don't think the public will care much about what type of rolling stock they're riding on as long as they all feel the same.

The public doesn't care what the rolling stock looks like but they definitely will care that it's as fast, frequent, and reliable as possible. Cable drawn APMs like the one at the OAK Airport are inferior on all three counts compared to self propelled APMs like PHX Skytrain. As a passenger I thought it was plain dumb that the OAK Airport Connector had to stop midway not to pick up anyone but just to switch cables.

If you want to expand the APM to Liberty Station, Sports Arena, and NAVWAR, you really need a self propelled APM.

[roletand]

Blocks 3A, 4A, and 4B are all above ground at the RaDD. The best/most current renders I found of the site are on their commercial real estate advisor's site, check out the brochure. https://retailinsite.net/property/radd/

Their moving fast on construction! The brochure says buildings will be ready for tenant improvements by the end of this year, and move-in ready by Q3 of next year.

[Streamliner]

Originally Posted by IrvineNative

The public doesn't care what the rolling stock looks like but they definitely will care that it's as fast, frequent, and reliable as possible. Cable drawn APMs like the one at the OAK Airport are inferior on all three counts compared to self propelled APMs like PHX Skytrain. As a passenger I thought it was plain dumb that the OAK Airport Connector had to stop midway not to pick up anyone but just to switch cables.

If you want to expand the APM to Liberty Station, Sports Arena, and NAVWAR, you really need a self propelled APM.

I agree that it needs to be fast and reliable, but public/aesthetic perception is important too. The Airport currently has a 992 bus that travels directly to Santa Fe Depot with roughly same frequency as the current Trolley lines, but it has no visual presence and the public is barely aware of it.

[dl3000]

Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp

I was wondering when that press release would coming out...

At this point everyone should know that SANDAG is totally broke. The whole Grand Central Station concept relied on some generous developer agreeing to build a massive new office for NAVWAR and a multi-billion dollar transit hub for SANDAG, all for the privilege of being allowed to build a handful of skyscrapers when they could do the same thing less than a mile away in downtown for far less hassle.

Sadly, such kindhearted corporate citizens are in short supply these days so there weren't any takers. The Navy got sick of waiting around for its new office, so they gave SANDAG the boot.

Not all was lost though, because the process got the Port, the Airport, and MTS talking. And we figured out that the Port has land, the Airport has money, and MTS has a transit system. Truly a match made in heaven.

The end result probably isn't going to wow you (although with any luck they'll be a pretty cool observation deck), but it makes far more sense from a cost/benefit perspective. I've said before that airports aren't nearly the ridership generators people think they are, there's little point spending billions and billions connecting them to transit. So when you see the renderings this summer, try and think less about the glorious monument to public transit you've lost and more about how the dollars we save can go towards something that actually gets people out of their cars. Plus, you know, this actually has a chance of getting built.

Honestly, I think the only purpose of this "downtown Grand Central Station" is to avoid admitting the NAVWAR Grand Central Station failed. Even if it isn't, it's on a thirty-years-to-never timeline. Allegedly it involves tunneling under half of downtown, which should be neat. I'd expect that skyscraper to get shortened if it ever gets a serious rendering, no way that would get past CALTRANS.

As for why this is suddenly in the news now when everything I've talked about has been going on for months? Well, last week Ikhrata got caught using the company card to wine and dine various local bigwigs, and he'd rather see this story when you google "SANDAG" than that one.

Thanks for the insights! Is this the "trolley station at the Port HQ with a ped bridge over pacific highway to an APM station at the rental facility that follows the dedicated road the shuttles take" concept?

[IrvineNative]

Originally Posted by dl3000

Thanks for the insights! Is this the "trolley station at the Port HQ with a ped bridge over pacific highway to an APM station at the rental facility that follows the dedicated road the shuttles take" concept?

Middletown station will be relocated a couple hundred meters North to the Port HQ building, which will be rebuilt and connected to the rental car center via pedestrian bridge. The new Middletown station will allow transfers between the trolley, the APM, Coaster, and Amtrak.

In other news, SDSU breaks ground on the River park. Apparently Rivair Apartments at 7050 Friars Toad across the street from Fashion Valley has been U/C for months.

[Streamliner]

Here's a few smaller developments I came across:

I saw online that they started demolishing the buildings directly south of the Sprouts along Park Avenue near North Park. It looks like construction will be underway soon on a new 7-story, 200-unit development called 4135 Park Blvd:


Source

Separately, I was browsing Jonathan Segel's website and saw a new project coming soon. It's just described as Air Rights Tower, but it's right behind his 8-story Continental project which finished recently at Cedar/Union in Little Italy. It looks like it would be his tallest building yet.





Further afield, I drove by Grantville Station along the 8 and saw a project going up. From some research it looks like a residential development atop the transit station's old parking lot. It's called Union Grantville and will be 250 units (market rate). It appears 150 affordable units will be built shortly after. The units are right against the station:


Source

[IrvineNative]

Originally Posted by Streamliner

Further afield, I drove by Grantville Station along the 8 and saw a project going up. From some research it looks like a residential development atop the transit station's old parking lot. It's called Union Grantville and will be 250 units (market rate). It appears 150 affordable units will be built shortly after. The units are right against the station:


Source

The 150 units affordable housing was reduced to 125 units but broke ground a couple months ago.

Can anyone get updates on Riverwalk? They said Phase 1 (on Friars Road) should break ground this month.

[HurricaneHugo]

Originally Posted by roletand

Blocks 3A, 4A, and 4B are all above ground at the RaDD. The best/most current renders I found of the site are on their commercial real estate advisor's site, check out the brochure. https://retailinsite.net/property/radd/

Their moving fast on construction! The brochure says buildings will be ready for tenant improvements by the end of this year, and move-in ready by Q3 of next year.

Pic I took yesterday:

[Streamliner]

Originally Posted by Streamliner

Separately, I was browsing Jonathan Segal's website and saw a new project coming soon. It's just described as Air Rights Tower, but it's right behind his 8-story Continental project which finished recently at Cedar/Union in Little Italy. It looks like it would be his tallest building yet.

Oddly enough I just saw this article pop up on this project. The historic house that's on the site is proposed to be physically moved to Barrio Logan to prevent its destruction.

Edit: The facebook commenters are PISSED

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/...YerHkfbGh0PNilO1lgVUZSqY4g9XRV6_G7Is-BR4

[roletand]

Oddly enough I just saw this article pop up on this project. The historic house that's on the site is proposed to be physically moved to Barrio Logan to prevent its destruction.

Edit: The facebook commenters are PISSED

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/local/...YerHkfbGh0PNilO1lgVUZSqY4g9XRV6_G7Is-BR4

You should check out the Reddit comments. They're overwhelmingly supportive, minus a few comments about Segal getting positive PR for building affordable rentals and then putting them on Airbnb.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sandiego/comments/u9hzfu/move_of_historic_home_in_little_italy_receives/

[roletand]

The RaDD put up another crane on block 2B. We have 12 cranes downtown now and that might be our peak for the near future. The building on RaDD 3A is topped out and Simone looks like it's getting close to max height.


1 Crane - Simone, Alexan Little Italy, Trammell Crow Residential, Union & Ash, https://www.crowholdings.com/alexan-little-italy
0 Cranes - One Broadway Hotel, Manchester Pacific Gateway, Manchester Financial, Broadway & Pacific Hwy, https://www.manchesterpacificgateway.com/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 2A, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
2 Cranes - RaDD Block 2B, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 3A, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 4A, IQHQ, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
1 Crane - RaDD Block 4B, IQHQ, Harbor Drive & Pacific Hwy, https://iqhqreit.com/project/radd/
0 Cranes - 8th & B, Bosa, 8th & B
1 Crane - 800 Broadway, CA Ventures, 8th & Broadway
1 Crane - West, Courthouse Commons, Holland Partners, Union & Broadway
1 Crane - Radian, Cisterra, 9th & G, https://www.cisterra.com/radian
0 Cranes - The Lindley, Milano, Toll Brothers, Columbia & Ash
1 Crane - Broadway Towers (Tower 2), Pinnacle International, 11th & Broadway, https://broadwaytowers.com/
1 Crane - Jefferson Makers Quarter, JPI Development, 15th & Broadway

[Streamliner]

Originally Posted by roletand

You should check out the Reddit comments. They're overwhelmingly supportive, minus a few comments about Segal getting positive PR for building affordable rentals and then putting them on Airbnb.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sandiego/comments/u9hzfu/move_of_historic_home_in_little_italy_receives/

Yes those reddit comments give me hope. Speaking of reddit, there was a post last week from a plane flying over downtown. Pretty good view of the Radd development:

https://www.reddit.com/r/sandiego/comments/u6zq9z/got_to_fly_over_the_san_diego_bay_this_past/