Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Minor quibble, Wikipedia lists Coca-Cola Coliseum as having 7,851 seats for hockey, so a fair bit below the 10,000 threshold. Even Ottawa Civic Centre or whatever they call it now is under the 10,000 mark with 9,862 listed as the capacity... I'm not sure what caused it to be downsized below 10,000. .

If I remember correctly, the capacity was raised to 10,000+ for the Ottawa Senators when they played there between 1992 and 1995. Thy may have changed the seats when Lansdowne was redeveloped, reducing the capacity back to something below 10,000.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If I remember correctly, the capacity was raised to 10,000+ for the Ottawa Senators when they played there between 1992 and 1995. Thy may have changed the seats when Lansdowne was redeveloped, reducing the capacity back to something below 10,000.

I heard some parts were condemned, I think the press box has been moved out of the box above the rink and into the stands?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Minor quibble, Wikipedia lists Coca-Cola Coliseum as having 7,851 seats for hockey, so a fair bit below the 10,000 threshold. Even Ottawa Civic Centre or whatever they call it now is under the 10,000 mark with 9,862 listed as the capacity... I'm not sure what caused it to be downsized below 10,000. Budweiser Gardens is listed at 9,036.

It's kind of an odd quirk that Toronto doesn't have a second 16,000+ seat arena... most North American metros of a certain size (around approximately 3,000,000 or more residents) have them. I guess Copps Coliseum is sort of the de facto secondary arena, although it's so far from downtown Toronto as to push the limits of what one would expect in terms of location for such a venue. There are closer secondary venues like Paramount Fine Foods Centre and Coca Cola Coliseum, but they are too small for major events.

Is Toronto really missing out on anything by not having that second arena though? And you do have other venues that hold events based on the season as well. Rogers Centre for the large concerts, whatever name the Ontario Place Amphitheater has now for summer concerts, smaller concerts have various smaller arenas and performance halls, trade shows have many venues to use. I'm not sure that Toronto really misses out on winter time concert tours, and Scotiabank can run 7 nights a week if demand is there.

[esquire]

^ Yeah, I don't think Toronto is necessarily losing out or in any way lacking civic amenities, it's just I would have thought someone would have tried to build a second venue as a for-profit venture. Although as you note, Skydome basically functions as the alternative large indoor space for sports and concerts. Maybe if Toronto didn't have that and had an outdoor stadium instead, it's possible that a secondary large arena might have materialized.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by esquire

I heard some parts were condemned, I think the press box has been moved out of the box above the rink and into the stands?

Sounds plausible. I know they had to shorten the roof of the North Side Stands, so it's possible those same steel girders could no longer support the press box inside the arena.

I think I read somewhere that the roof could no longer support a jumbotron, hence why we now only have one big screen below the North Side Stands, in the arena, which ties in with the above.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

That's an advantage of soccer's structure for sure, some communities that might be considered more as having an outside shot at the CPL can nurture their fanbases at a lower level before stepping up. That will give those communities a chance to build the appropriate infrastructure necessary to do that. It will be interesting to see how things go over the next few years with L1 Ontario.

The L1 leagues across Canada should be fascinating to watch in the coming years. I should probably mention that CPL owns those leagues as a whole and do, to some degree, control the pathway for lower-level teams looking to cut their teeth prior to joining CPL. I'm particularly interested in the three I mentioned - supposedly Electric City is sending at least two buses of people down to Guelph for the season-opener on Thursday. Guelph are anticipating a big crowd for their Canadian Championship game against Halifax, as well. Winning that and facing off against TFC in Guelph would be something.

Originally Posted by esquire

It's kind of an odd quirk that Toronto doesn't have a second 16,000+ seat arena... most North American metros of a certain size (around approximately 3,000,000 or more residents) have them. I guess Copps Coliseum is sort of the de facto secondary arena, although it's so far from downtown Toronto as to push the limits of what one would expect in terms of location for such a venue. There are closer secondary venues like Paramount Fine Foods Centre and Coca Cola Coliseum, but they are too small for major events.

Like Whipper pointed out, FirstOntario in Hamilton acts as a de facto secondary arena for the GTA market.

Relatively speaking, the closest comparable to Toronto as a market is Chicago - does that city have more than one major arena? I can't remember where the Wolves play out of.

Originally Posted by esquire

I heard some parts were condemned, I think the press box has been moved out of the box above the rink and into the stands?

Yes, the roof was not stable enough for the press boxes IIRC. The renovations to the arena during the stadium renovations were quite literally a coat of paint.

Originally Posted by djeffrey

Is Toronto really missing out on anything by not having that second arena though? And you do have other venues that hold events based on the season as well. Rogers Centre for the large concerts, whatever name the Ontario Place Amphitheater has now for summer concerts, smaller concerts have various smaller arenas and performance halls, trade shows have many venues to use. I'm not sure that Toronto really misses out on winter time concert tours, and Scotiabank can run 7 nights a week if demand is there.

Between its major venues (Scotiabank, SkyDome, Coliseum, Budweiser Stage, BMO, etc.) Toronto is served pretty well. I don't really think there's a giant, glaring hole in the market. Arenas in Brampton and Mississauga have done nothing to suggest that an even larger-scale build in Markham or elsewhere would be a wise investment.

[esquire]

Thanks for the reply. Just had to address this one point:

Originally Posted by JHikka

Relatively speaking, the closest comparable to Toronto as a market is Chicago - does that city have more than one major arena? I can't remember where the Wolves play out of.

The Wolves play at Allstate Arena (aka Rosemont Horizon, cap. 16,692), a suburban rink by O'Hare Airport built in the 70s. There is also the more recent Now Arena, cap. 10,543 even farther out in the suburbs, which has hosted all kinds of random leagues in various sports. There is also the even newer, flashier and centrally located Wintrust Arena with 10,387 seats for DePaul University, the WNBA and whatever else uses it. I'm not sure if it's designed to accommodate hockey, I suspect it isn't.

There may be other big arenas in the Chicago area but those three + United Center would be the main ones as far as I know. So kind of a 1, 1A, 2, 2 type arrangement. I guess US cities will generally have more of those types of amenities than similar-sized Canadian cities.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

The Wolves play at Allstate Arena (aka Rosemont Horizon, cap. 16,692), a suburban rink by O'Hare Airport built in the 70s. There is also the more recent Now Arena, cap. 10,543 even farther out in the suburbs, which has hosted all kinds of random leagues in various sports. There is also the even newer, flashier and centrally located Wintrust Arena with 10,387 seats for DePaul University, the WNBA and whatever else uses it. I'm not sure if it's designed to accommodate hockey, I suspect it isn't.

Makes sense. I guess if we combined all of the arenas in the GTA (Oshawa, Mississauga, Brampton) we could scrounge up a larger 10K arena somewhere instead. Combined with the Coliseum and it's probably a wash, although Chicago does benefit from a stronger college sports background...U of T just built a great basketball facility but it's not a major arena beyond that. Ryerson has the old Maple Leaf Gardens but it's not much of a facility beyond the occasional hockey game, AFAIK.

[JustForTheHalibut]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

As someone from the province of Saskatchewan, we kindly accept all your comments Winnipeg. We promise not to build too nice of arena and make yours look old and shabby, but then maybe we will cross our fingers behind our back and do it anyways.

Quick look at the proposed funding expediture for that new Saskatoon downtown arena.
They've ear marked $350 million back in late 2020 which is about the same amount as what Quebec City spent on their 18,000 seat Videotron Arena,
maybe the Saskatoon arena will be similar sized.

https://globalnews.ca/news/7407025/sask-party-funding-saskatoon-downtown-arena/

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If I remember correctly, the capacity was raised to 10,000+ for the Ottawa Senators when they played there between 1992 and 1995. Thy may have changed the seats when Lansdowne was redeveloped, reducing the capacity back to something below 10,000.

I was looking up some of the history of the TD Place Arena in Ottawa. It was originally opened with 9,000 their first hockey game, but in the 1990's they shrunk the individual seat size to squeeze in more seats to make it over 10,000 seats, because of the Senators introduction to that arena before they built Canadian Tire Centre in Kanata. Once the Senators' arena opened they reduced it back down again.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Yes, the upper level is a horseshoe. That end of the arena is the back of house, where the loading docks and dressing rooms are and this is the end where the concert stage would be erected. The lower level seats retract so that the stage front would be approx where the hockey net at that end would be. They really tried to maximize the number of seats in the rest of the arena for concerts with the setup they did. Almost anything is possible with the right construction budget, and if the building was going to be expanded to the west for more back of house space, then it's conceivable that they could add the missing link in the upper seating bowl above that space. Whether it makes financial sense is the question though.

All it would really do is add maybe 1000 hockey seats at the most. The upper level already isn't that big, maybe 2500-3000 seats, 90% of which are usable for concerts. Adding another 1000 seats in that area doesn't really add to most concert capacities, unless you are a show like I went to with Shania Twain, whose stage was at center ice and the whole arena was used. Those type of setups are rare though. I'm sure the costs of that type of addition wouldn't be justified in the additional hockey revenue. I doubt the Knights would be willing to kick in on that either.

Has there ever been talk of London, Ontario getting an NHL team?. It's about half way between Detroit and Toronto so wouldn't be in either the Wings or Leafs market area and if the Budweiser Arena got the blunt end of horseshoe filled with a couple thousand seats and maybe do what Ottawa did before Senators newer arena was built, by reducing seat size to add extra seats until a new arena could eventually be built...

That Budweiser Arena looks like the de facto catch all for all sports and entertainment in Southern Ontario, but if a second and newer arena was built plus a concert Hall/Amphitheatre of some sort like most other cities have, Southern Ontario like Quebec, Saskatchewan and BC could be a potential NHL expansion (ie acquired sun belt NHL acquisition) site someday.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut

Has there ever been talk of London, Ontario getting an NHL team?.

No.

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut

It's about half way between Detroit and Toronto so wouldn't be in either the Wings or Leafs market area ...

I would argue that it's actually in both teams' markets. There's a reason why the Leafs routinely play preseason games there.

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut

... and if the Budweiser Arena got the blunt end of horseshoe filled with a couple thousand seats and maybe do what Ottawa did before Senators newer arena was built, by reducing seat size to add extra seats until a new arena could eventually be built...

Market isn't large enough. I don't see where the increased demand is for London to double the size of their arena. A good indicator of what's happening in S. Ontario in the next few years will be how Kitchener replaces the Auditorium. There's potential for a 10-15K arena for that market which would be far more appealing for professional outfits than London, IMO. Neither are getting an NHL team any time soon.

[esquire]

I've never seen an aerial view of Budweiser Gardens before, from that angle it looks as though they built 3/4 of a NHL arena with room to add on the rest later. But that is somewhat deceptive as the lower seating bowl already goes all the way around. I'd imagine that even if they fully built out the one end, I doubt it would get them to 15,000 seats.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by esquire

I've never seen an aerial view of Budweiser Gardens before, from that angle it looks as though they built 3/4 of a NHL arena with room to add on the rest later. But that is somewhat deceptive as the lower seating bowl already goes all the way around. I'd imagine that even if they fully built out the one end, I doubt it would get them to 15,000 seats.

You wouldn't gain very much in hockey seating by finishing that upper bowl, as I explained a few posts back. The upper level isn't a lot of seats, compared the total. Capacity is a shade over 9000 for hockey, including the standing room area at that end where the upper level is missing. The upper level is anywhere from 9-12 rows high, depending on the sides or ends, so even if they replicated the east end bowl in the west end, it would only add 1200-1500 seats. You could also potentially gain a club area or more private suites (there are 30 suites now). So you might get hockey up to 10,500, maybe even pushing 11,000. You won't really add any concert capacity because this is all back stage area, and most concerts are set up for about 8500-9000 seats, with floor seating.

I recall back when the discussion was happening on what to build, there was a large push from several members of city council to go 12-13000 seats. The London Knights were pushing for closer to 6500, as they had no idea that they would draw so well, after coming from a 5000 seat old barn out on the highway. The the cost estimates came back that they would basically double the cost of the place to go 13k from 9k. They came up with the upper level plan with a curtain system, so the Knights could have their 6500 seats on the main level, and they could open the curtain for concerts. Of course, other than recent pandemic restrictions, the Knights have never used the curtain in 20 seasons, so who knew. I think a lot of people have 20/20 hindsight and wish we had gone bigger back then though.

[J.OT13]

Sports media in Ottawa seem pretty convinced that Melnyk had gathered some partners to propose a new arena at LeBreton Flats before he passed away, and this partnership might include some local developers. We'll know more in June from the NCC, presumably.

Earlier this week, Roger Greenberg (his family owns local developer Minto Group and he's part owner of OSEG of Lansdowne/RedBlacks/67's/Athletico/BlackJacks) openly expressed interest in becoming partner within a new ownership group for the Ottawa Senators, saying that it's up to the Melnyk Family to make a move.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The L1 leagues across Canada should be fascinating to watch in the coming years. I should probably mention that CPL owns those leagues as a whole and do, to some degree, control the pathway for lower-level teams looking to cut their teeth prior to joining CPL. I'm particularly interested in the three I mentioned - supposedly Electric City is sending at least two buses of people down to Guelph for the season-opener on Thursday. Guelph are anticipating a big crowd for their Canadian Championship game against Halifax, as well. Winning that and facing off against TFC in Guelph would be something.

From last night

https://twitter.com/guelphunitedfc/status/1517296256959328256/photo/1

Decent turnout for semi-pro, third division footy on a thursday in April. We'll see what ECFC can scrounge together for stands when they host their first home match.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

Sure, but they can't force someone not to build another arena. I mean, they are powerful but they're not THAT powerful. I suspect it is more a happy coincidence for MLSE that it worked out that way.

It's easy to imagine situations where a second arena might have gone up... had the WHA taken root and lasted a few more years maybe the Toros would have built an arena somewhere in the 'burbs back in the late 70s. Or had MLG not purchased the Raptors there could have been two arenas downtown, which nearly happened.

They can't stop someone from building another arena but, they can cause a lot of problems for someone wanting to build another arena. No one is going to build another arena without a major league team in a current, rising or, league that doesn't exist yet. The corporate juggernaut, MLSE, did not exist in the mid 1990s at the time of The Raptor's purchase. It was a holding company (I think still owned by Knob Hill farms owner) for a hockey team and a 65 year old arena building

[J.OT13]

Official proposal to redevelop the Civic Centre and TD Place Stadium, along with adding housing to Lansdowne Park.

The new arena would have 5,500 seats, compared to the old Civic's 9,500. It would be built within a berm where one exists now, minimizing the visual impact. However, the new green roof would not be accessible to the public in order to minimize costs (reduced load bearing capabilities).

Capacity of the new north side stands would be 11,200 and 800 standing, for a total of 12k. Temporary stands would be used during construction, handling 35% of the current north side capacity. (article doesn't mention current capacity, but stadium total is 24k).

OSEG would be ready to start construction on the new arena in November.





https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-knit-arena-into-berm-add-1200-new-homes

[Friedrich Nietzsche]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Official proposal to redevelop the Civic Centre and TD Place Stadium, along with adding housing to Lansdowne Park.

The new arena would have 5,500 seats, compared to the old Civic's 9,500. It would be built within a berm where one exists now, minimizing the visual impact. However, the new green roof would not be accessible to the public in order to minimize costs (reduced load bearing capabilities).

Capacity of the new north side stands would be 11,200 and 800 standing, for a total of 12k. Temporary stands would be used during construction, handling 35% of the current north side capacity. (article doesn't mention current capacity, but stadium total is 24k).

OSEG would be ready to start construction on the new arena in November.





https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-new...-knit-arena-into-berm-add-1200-new-homes

So the current arena is was built under the north stadium stands, which is making both arena and/or stadium improvements difficult, right? So let's build a new arena under where possible future end-zone seating may want to be contemplated one day. Right??? Right.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Friedrich Nietzsche

So the current arena is was built under the north stadium stands, which is making both arena and/or stadium improvements difficult, right? So let's build a new arena under where possible future end-zone seating may want to be contemplated one day. Right??? Right.

Yeah, someone pointed out that major flaw on the Ottawa forum. There goes any chance for another Grey Cup or NHL Classic now that we're removing any possibility for even temporary seating.

And not having the green roof open for public use also eats up quite a bit of park space.

[esquire]

What will total capacity of the stadium be with the new north side stands? The south side stands are not that big iirc, maybe around 10,000? So total stadium capacity of around 22,000? Seems a bit on the small side if so.

While the capacity and general location of the arena is good, I do not like its specific placement at all. What is the point of having a bunker when the space on top is unusable? It just makes permanent an atmosphere-deadening void at one end of the field. Why would you not leave open the door for future addition of temporary or permanent stands? What's wrong with that field immediately to the right of the arena as shown in the rendering...why can't the arena go there instead?

[thurmas]

Thats a very bad design you cannot use the endzone for temp grey cup seating and you cannot even distinguish that an arena is even there until you get close to the doors looks like an odd 1950s nuclear bunker