The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

well, I guess global warming is our only chance at being number 1

I am guessing due to the ocean rising and flooding NY?

I have a better idea. Restore the 1990s Via Rail cuts to Canada, and all Via services must be dailies. Also restore Northlander. And restore all former Amtrak service. And add HFR. That should easily add 10+ trains in and out. It would easily move it to #2.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

SWO would be better served by enhanced GO service. All the transit systems could be transfer-free between GO trains and local services ala 905 making it cheaper and more convenient. Also VIA's service to SWO has deteriorated to the point of being useless due to the infrequency of the service and laughable on-time performance. At least GO owns the Aldershot to Union section of the map so GO will be in charge and can offer somewhat more reliable service.

Unless Ottawa makes a FIRM commitment to bring HFR to Windsor, then London & Windsor Mayors should just pressure Ottawa and QP to cancel VIA services and have them replaced by GO.

If GO were to go all the way to Windsor, they would need to do a few things to "get rid of Via"
1) Travel times need to increase. Via is about a half hour faster than GO on the same route.
2) Better fare integration with ALL transit that it connects to. That includes Windsor, London and Toronto.
3) Examine whether local stops could work outside the GTA. For instance, adding more stops within the city of London.

Then you would have what exists between Toronto and Niagara Falls where Via does not run, but they operate Amtrak trains.

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I think Union's ridership could easily get to #1 in NA 25 years assuming that GO RER is up and running in a decade. It might be tough to have a drastic increase in peak passenger throughput due to the difficulty with passenger circulation, but by making Union more of an all-day hub there could be a huge overall increase (like 2-3x) just through off-peak volumes going from say 1/5 of peak to just 1/3.

The pre-pandemic GO train ridership was around 215k for all lines combined with most trips starting or ending at Union. That's less than 1/2 of the BD line. All it would take to match the BD line's daily average would be if each of the 5 electrified GO lines had 1/5 the BD line daily average, or about 100k. That's less than the Canada line with it's tiny trains. And maybe add another 10-20k each to account for ridership diverted to the OL. And of course the non-electrified GO lines would still exist and VIA HFR would add a little as well.

Now whether or not it'll ever surpass Gare Du Nord to be #1 in the western world is another question.

I am optimistic that it will increase no more than double of what it is now. Even with fare integration with the TTC, I do not see it more than doubling.

Where is there a list of "Western World" stations?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I am guessing due to the ocean rising and flooding NY?

I have a better idea. Restore the 1990s Via Rail cuts to Canada, and all Via services must be dailies. Also restore Northlander. And restore all former Amtrak service. And add HFR. That should easily add 10+ trains in and out. It would easily move it to #2.

I agree with reinstating the 1990 cuts with a few changes:
1) Cancel the Atlantic Between Montreal and Halifax.
2) Add multiple daily frequencies between Halifax-Truro-Moncton-St John.
3) Add service Montreal - Sherbrooke.
4) Cancel transcontinental service.
5) Replace with :
5.1) Toronto - Wpg via CN 3 x/wk
5.2) Toronto - Wpg via CP daily
5.3) Wpg - Calgary via CP Regina daily
5.4) Wpg - Regina - Saskatoon daily
5.4) Saskatoon - North Battleford - Lloydminster- Edmonton daily
5.5) Calgary - Banff - Revelstoke - Vancouver
5.6) Vancouver - Whistler - Prince George 3 x/ wk
6) re-instate 5 daily runs between Toronto - Kitchener - London - Sarnia/Windsor
7) extend all Windsor trains to Detroit.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I agree with reinstating the 1990 cuts with a few changes:
1) Cancel the Atlantic Between Montreal and Halifax.
2) Add multiple daily frequencies between Halifax-Truro-Moncton-St John.
3) Add service Montreal - Sherbrooke.
4) Cancel transcontinental service.
5) Replace with :
5.1) Toronto - Wpg via CN 3 x/wk
5.2) Toronto - Wpg via CP daily
5.3) Wpg - Calgary via CP Regina daily
5.4) Wpg - Regina - Saskatoon daily
5.4) Saskatoon - North Battleford - Lloydminster- Edmonton daily
5.5) Calgary - Banff - Revelstoke - Vancouver
5.6) Vancouver - Whistler - Prince George 3 x/ wk
6) re-instate 5 daily runs between Toronto - Kitchener - London - Sarnia/Windsor
7) extend all Windsor trains to Detroit.

1) Why would you orphan Halifax?

5) Not a bad idea overall. 4) did make me pause.

7) How would you deal with the border?

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

4) Cancel transcontinental service.

I'm guessing this is a cost/use decision?

Originally Posted by GoTrans

5.1) Toronto - Wpg via CN 3 x/wk

But then why this route? Am I missing something, as it doesn't appear to serve any large population areas between Sudbury and Winnipeg.

On a related note, thanks to this post, I learned about this site:

Canadian Rail Atlas

[DirectionNorth]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I agree with reinstating the 1990 cuts with a few changes:
1) Cancel the Atlantic Between Montreal and Halifax.
2) Add multiple daily frequencies between Halifax-Truro-Moncton-St John.
3) Add service Montreal - Sherbrooke.
4) Cancel transcontinental service.
5) Replace with :
5.1) Toronto - Wpg via CN 3 x/wk
5.2) Toronto - Wpg via CP daily
5.3) Wpg - Calgary via CP Regina daily
5.4) Wpg - Regina - Saskatoon daily
5.4) Saskatoon - North Battleford - Lloydminster- Edmonton daily
5.5) Calgary - Banff - Revelstoke - Vancouver
5.6) Vancouver - Whistler - Prince George 3 x/ wk
6) re-instate 5 daily runs between Toronto - Kitchener - London - Sarnia/Windsor
7) extend all Windsor trains to Detroit.

*Pulls out YouTube video of VIA Rail's history*

For point 4, I think there's some tourism value in a cross-continental train. While I'm guessing that most people won't do this, transferring twice between Toronto and Vancouver is somewhat of a hassle. Even if it's just a tourist train, the marketing value of such a service is considerable.

I know that this has been debated ad infinitum, but if we are going to build any intercity rail in the west, I would rather see a dedicated rail line built Calgary-Edmonton (doesn't have to be fast, just frequent), rather than token services across the prairies.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by DirectionNorth

*Pulls out YouTube video of VIA Rail's history*

For point 4, I think there's some tourism value in a cross-continental train. While I'm guessing that most people won't do this, transferring twice between Toronto and Vancouver is somewhat of a hassle. Even if it's just a tourist train, the marketing value of such a service is considerable.

I know that this has been debated ad infinitum, but if we are going to build any intercity rail in the west, I would rather see a dedicated rail line built Calgary-Edmonton (doesn't have to be fast, just frequent), rather than token services across the prairies.

4) Replacing transcontinental service with regional trains will improve scheduling, on time performance and probably increase ridership. Increasing ridership will decrease greenhouse gas emissions, although only to a very minor degree. As the CN mainline between London and Montreal shows not even having double and triple track allows Via's trains to run on time. The railways seem to be incapable at running freight trains on time. The railways need to extend every siding in order to get back to even the 1980's or 1990's level of reliability. Today's long slow and underpowered freight trains plug not only the mainlines, but also the yards. It will take a long time to build this required capacity.

I agree with you on the Edmonton-Calgary route and that was an omission on my part. ( Big Oops). But I do not think we need to start with building a separate line. The original TGV line in France was build in phases. There is no reason this couldn't be done to build service up with limited frequencies. Once a separate ROW is built than both the frequencies and speeds can increase.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I'm guessing this is a cost/use decision?



But then why this route? Am I missing something, as it doesn't appear to serve any large population areas between Sudbury and Winnipeg.

On a related note, thanks to this post, I learned about this site:

Canadian Rail Atlas

You are right that few people live there and that is why I believe we should have daily service on the CP route. The problem is that there are very few roads in the area and they typically run north-south resulting in some need for service with a much less costly train.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

1) Why would you orphan Halifax?

5) Not a bad idea overall. 4) did make me pause.

7) How would you deal with the border?

Halifax would not be orphaned as I presumed the Ocean would run daily as it was suggested in your original post.

4) The only way you can increase speed, reliability and ridership is to route trains to areas with higher population. I would also start the Saskatoon - Edmonton train in Regina, thus providing multi frequency service between Regina and Saskatoon with the Saskatoon - Wpg service providing one of the frequencies.

7) I would build a combined US and Canadian Customs at a station in Detroit. Passengers coming to Canada would pre clear Canada Customs in Detroit. Passengers going to the US would clear at the same station in Detroit. Since there are multiple frequencies on both sides of the border it means that delayed passengers could just take the next train rather than holding up the whole train as what used to happen with the joint Amtrak/Via International at the Sarina/Port Huron border crossing. Trains could be adjusted so that there would be trains departing at a reasonable time to allow customs clearance. Keep in mind that there are proposals to do the same thing in Montreal with Amtrak's Adirondack.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Halifax would not be orphaned as I presumed the Ocean would run daily as it was suggested in your original post.

4) The only way you can increase speed, reliability and ridership is to route trains to areas with higher population. I would also start the Saskatoon - Edmonton train in Regina, thus providing multi frequency service between Regina and Saskatoon with the Saskatoon - Wpg service providing one of the frequencies.

7) I would build a combined US and Canadian Customs at a station in Detroit. Passengers coming to Canada would pre clear Canada Customs in Detroit. Passengers going to the US would clear at the same station in Detroit. Since there are multiple frequencies on both sides of the border it means that delayed passengers could just take the next train rather than holding up the whole train as what used to happen with the joint Amtrak/Via International at the Sarina/Port Huron border crossing. Trains could be adjusted so that there would be trains departing at a reasonable time to allow customs clearance. Keep in mind that there are proposals to do the same thing in Montreal with Amtrak's Adirondack.

You did say Atlantic, which threw me for a loop. I am assuming you meant that when I said restore 1990 cuts. Neither the Atlantic or Ocean go to Union, so I wasn't thinking beyond it.

I would still suggest a once a week Toronto Vancouver on the CN route.Price it higher. Give it a more upscale service, etc. This way it can still be ridden in its original configuration.

If you are only going to Detroit, that would work well. In fact, the trains don't need to be adjusted as the clearance would not effect travel times.

[someone123]

One basic question I don't know the answer to is to what extent VIA is able to or has the right to reinstate old service levels, and what CN (or maybe CP along some routes?) could veto.

The limiting factor along the CN line by Halifax is what CN will allow. VIA declared their interest in operating commuter rail in NS and CN said no. The constraint in central NS seems to be CN scheduling, not demand.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by someone123

One basic question I don't know the answer to is to what extent VIA is able to or has the right to reinstate old service levels, and what CN (or maybe CP along some routes?) could veto.

The limiting factor along the CN line by Halifax is what CN will allow. VIA declared their interest in operating commuter rail in NS and CN said no. The constraint in central NS seems to be CN scheduling, not demand.

This is where the federal government needs to come to the table with funding for extended sidings and forcing the railways to give Via on priority at least on par with what is given to freight trains. The Harper government spend 900$ million on triple tracking parts of the CN route from Toronto to Montreal only to not show any increase in speed or reliability for Via.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

One basic question I don't know the answer to is to what extent VIA is able to or has the right to reinstate old service levels, and what CN (or maybe CP along some routes?) could veto.

The limiting factor along the CN line by Halifax is what CN will allow. VIA declared their interest in operating commuter rail in NS and CN said no. The constraint in central NS seems to be CN scheduling, not demand.

Currently, Via needs to negotiate to use anything they don't own. That could change if the government wanted to change how it works.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

This is where the federal government needs to come to the table with funding for extended sidings and forcing the railways to give Via on priority at least on par with what is given to freight trains. The Harper government spend 900$ million on triple tracking parts of the CN route from Toronto to Montreal only to not show any increase in speed or reliability for Via.

It doesn't make sense why they didn't just give ownership of the new 3rd track to VIA. That way VIA would have a route all to itself and only move to CN track briefly when meeting VIA trains coming from the opposite direction. Or better yet, just build enough sidings so the CN track is never needed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

This is where the federal government needs to come to the table with funding for extended sidings and forcing the railways to give Via on priority at least on par with what is given to freight trains. The Harper government spend 900$ million on triple tracking parts of the CN route from Toronto to Montreal only to not show any increase in speed or reliability for Via.

Did they spend $900 million though?


According to the audit, they spent $318.5 million for 70 km of triple track. It enabled additional trains, but resulted in worse travel time and on-time performance, contributing to a drop in ridership. https://www.oag-bvg.gc.ca/internet/English/parl_oag_201602_07_e_41251.html

[ssiguy]

I don't think GO taking over VIA in SWO would be difficult.

Remember VIA is half a rail system and half a political apparatus. VIA service is dictated by Ottawa and not VIA headquarters. Following this reality, you have to understand Trudeau considers Toronto and the rest of Ontario as being one in the same. Despite getting MPs from KW/London/Windsor, they were completely ignored when it came to cabinet posts. 14 of Ontario's cabinet posts are from the GTAH and one from Ottawa and the other from TB and only because the person is in charge of Northern Ontario affairs.

There is no way, in hell, that QC should have gotten HFR before London if it was run on a business case as opposed to a politically advantageous one.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I don't think GO taking over VIA in SWO would be difficult.

Remember VIA is half a rail system and half a political apparatus. VIA service is dictated by Ottawa and not VIA headquarters. Following this reality, you have to understand Trudeau considers Toronto and the rest of Ontario as being one in the same. Despite getting MPs from KW/London/Windsor, they were completely ignored when it came to cabinet posts. 14 of Ontario's cabinet posts are from the GTAH and one from Ottawa and the other from TB and only because the person is in charge of Northern Ontario affairs.

There is no way, in hell, that QC should have gotten HFR before London if it was run on a business case as opposed to a politically advantageous one.

The 3 busiest stations for Via are Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa, so it does make sense to do the HFR near Peterborough first.The 4th busiest station is London, so it does make sense for HFR to go there next.

[JustForTheHalibut]

Translink unveiled 10 year plan last week.
it includes Skytrain Millennium extension all the way to UBC, SFU gondola, and nine new Bus Rapid Transit routes.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8772897/translink-10-year-vision-bus-rapid-transit/

[whatnext]

Gotta love public transit:

A man from Surrey has been charged with assault after a verbal conflict with passengers on a bus in Abbotsford escalated to violence over the weekend.

Footage of the incident on a BC Transit bus shows a man shouting and swearing at passengers. In the 10-minute video, the man is heard yelling at someone off-camera about them calling the police.

“If you weren’t a chick, I’d punch your f****** head in right now,” he said.

The bus was stopped on Highway 1 westbound at Whatcom Road when the events played out shortly before 4:30 p.m Sunday. According to Abbotsford police, the report they received was of an “intoxicated, assaultive passenger.”..

https://vancouver.citynews.ca/2022/04/26/abbotsford-bus-assault-surrey-man-charged/

[WhipperSnapper]

At least he got charged. It's better than the days before cellphones and security cameras in which he likely would have gotten away with it.

[JustForTheHalibut]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Gotta love public transit:

...

I know what you mean




TBM to tunnel for the extention of Millennium line to UBC arrived in Vancouver last week.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/tunnel-boring-mach...way-construction-arrive-in-b-c-1.5873994