DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Denver / Colorado need more grocery chains. It seems like our reliance on Kroger and Albersons as our "staple" brands is turning a lot of the city into a grocery desert. Why can't we be like the south where they have 7-8 major brands and then your typical TJ, WF, etc.

There has definitely been consolidation in grocery stores especially with Kroger aggressively buying other chains over the years.

Other than Spouts (HQ in Phx) there's only one local store still standing and they have struggled some and were recently acquired by a CA-based company. Their appeal is that while 'Basha's' is their main brand they also have AJ's Fine Foods for nicer suburban areas as well a Food City's which are hugely popular among Hispanics (and others) in lower socioeconomic areas.

Originally Posted by RyanD

Forgot about Choice. They are good and fill in a gap. I went to the Golden Triangle one the other week and they have a pretty good selection for a quick grocery run. Much better than a convenience store but not a full service grocery replacement.

Not unlike slow-mo development, Aldi's arrived in Phx with great fanfare; then little happened other than they're securing a warehouse. Between the Pandemic and then supply-chain issues it's been a slow-roll but Jeremy lives across from a new Aldi's just recently opened.

It's a German-based company with stores about 12,000 Sq Ft as apposed to 5,000 Sq Ft for a Choice store. Sam Hill would like an Aldi's as there's no carts, just baskets which you pay a 25 cent deposit for which is refunded when you return your basket. Both Jeremy and Mom like Aldi's as apposed to the (too big) 124,000 Sq Ft Fry's Marketplace next door.

One of the challenges with being closer to the city center in Denver is the high cost of land for a low-margin business but Aldi's might work given their more modest footprint.

Originally Posted by laniroj

In case any on this forum need a reminder, folks who are taking public transportation for stuff like groceries and essential errands are typically doing so out of necessity, not choice...

I have picked up those who took a bus to get groceries, typically a Walmart. But for the return trip there was waay too many groceries to take a bus home. Plus, for 'family' trips to the grocery store an Uber ride is a 'trip charge' whether one person of four.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

For average Joe's and Juanita's, Walmart does a ton of business. After all, there's only a few grocery suppliers anyway. Whether you say Tomato or To-mah-ta they all slice the same.


Trader Joe's is more of a boutique store with sizes ranging from 8,000 to 15,000 Sq Ft and you're more likely to find them in upscale areas (which is fine).

I kinda like Sprouts Farmers Market which are closer to 30,000 Sq Ft and these stores seem to do well in more middle or even lower-middle class neighborhoods as well an in upscale areas. It seems that wherever mom's live or women in general they're more sensitive to the idea of 'healthy' food.

I'd agree with you about changing times for grocery stores but still a banana is a banana regardless.

I feel like sometimes you’re just talking because you like to talk, even when you’re not quite sure what you’re talking about. Trader Joe’s is dirt cheap and has everything. It’s not boutique and it’s not upscale.

[coolmandan03]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

Maybe we can petition Piggly Wiggly!

Piggly Wiggly is owned by C&S Wholesale Grocers, who also provides wholesale procurement, category management, pricing, marketing and advertising, merchandising, business and accounting, as well as store design and engineering for Safeway. So they're not that different.

[TakeFive]

Fair enough

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I feel like sometimes you’re just talking because you like to talk, even when you’re not quite sure what you’re talking about. Trader Joe’s is dirt cheap and has everything. It’s not boutique and it’s not upscale.

Eh, perhaps I should have said 'eclectic' or even 'bohemian' (I didn't mention their pricing).

Here's the listing for Colorado Trader Joe's locations. You might notice that other than in 'the city' most stores in the metro area are in the south metro area.

Trader Joe's does have somewhat of a cult following:

Here’s Why Trader Joe’s Stores Are So Small
June 25, 2019 By Lauren Wicks

TJ’s executives recently answered several questions from loyal customers on the retailer’s podcast, including why they won’t expand the size of their stores.

No matter which day of the week you do your grocery shopping, it’s bound to be a tight squeeze down the aisles of Trader Joe’s locations across the country. Tuesday evening shoppers can experience just as much traffic as those who brave it on a Sunday afternoon—and not just because the grocery retailer has so many fans.

If you hadn't noticed, Trader Joe’s stores are pretty tiny! Especially when you compare to a more traditional grocery store, which often has a dozen aisles or more, most TJ's have just a few (well stocked) aisles. It isn't because all the good spaces were taken, or that they can't afford to expand—the small store size is on purpose!

So why are their stores intentionally on the small side?

“We want our stores to be small and intimate, [to] feel like a neighborhood store,” Basalone said. “Maybe you bump into somebody or a crew member and can talk about what you're buying or products or what's going on in your lives, that sort of thing.”

to all Trader Joe's fans; may you live a long life.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Here's the listing for Colorado Trader Joe's locations. You might notice that other than in 'the city' most stores in the metro area are in the south metro area.

Seems to me they are locating as close as possible to the maximum number of California transplants. Whether that correlates with wealth, well, I will leave that to others...

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

There has definitely been consolidation in grocery stores especially with Kroger aggressively buying other chains over the years.

Other than Spouts (HQ in Phx) there's only one local store still standing and they have struggled some and were recently acquired by a CA-based company. Their appeal is that while 'Basha's' is their main brand they also have AJ's Fine Foods for nicer suburban areas as well a Food City's which are hugely popular among Hispanics (and others) in lower socioeconomic areas.


Not unlike slow-mo development, Aldi's arrived in Phx with great fanfare; then little happened other than they're securing a warehouse. Between the Pandemic and then supply-chain issues it's been a slow-roll but Jeremy lives across from a new Aldi's just recently opened.

It's a German-based company with stores about 12,000 Sq Ft as apposed to 5,000 Sq Ft for a Choice store. Sam Hill would like an Aldi's as there's no carts, just baskets which you pay a 25 cent deposit for which is refunded when you return your basket. Both Jeremy and Mom like Aldi's as apposed to the (too big) 124,000 Sq Ft Fry's Marketplace next door.

One of the challenges with being closer to the city center in Denver is the high cost of land for a low-margin business but Aldi's might work given their more modest footprint.


I have picked up those who took a bus to get groceries, typically a Walmart. But for the return trip there was waay too many groceries to take a bus home. Plus, for 'family' trips to the grocery store an Uber ride is a 'trip charge' whether one person of four.

To this point, Aldi Süd operates the ALDI stores in the US, while its sister company Aldi Nord operates Trader Joe's in the US. They split Europe in two, even Germany is split between where Aldi Süd and Aldi Nord operates. My point being, selling discount groceries under private label is what these two grocers do and that is also what you get at Trader Joe's.

We absolutely need ALDI and / or LIDL in Colorado. They would shake up the stale market here. Having the whole state dominated by Kroger with Safeway in the distant second place just feels wrong. We need more grocers - and more innovation.

King Soopers should absolutely be introducing more formats, akin to what Tesco / Sainsbury's does in the UK. There should be small format stores in densely populated urban areas with minimal parking, really just serving area of few blocks.

[mr1138]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I feel like sometimes you’re just talking because you like to talk, even when you’re not quite sure what you’re talking about. Trader Joe’s is dirt cheap and has everything. It’s not boutique and it’s not upscale.

To be completely honest, I always just skip past every TakeFive post, and this forum suddenly becomes somewhat readable again.

[TakeFive]

Source

Originally Posted by mishko27

To this point, Aldi Süd operates the ALDI stores in the US, while its sister company Aldi Nord operates Trader Joe's in the US. They split Europe in two, even Germany is split between where Aldi Süd and Aldi Nord operates. My point being, selling discount groceries under private label is what these two grocers do and that is also what you get at Trader Joe's.

We absolutely need ALDI and / or LIDL in Colorado. They would shake up the stale market here. Having the whole state dominated by Kroger with Safeway in the distant second place just feels wrong. We need more grocers - and more innovation.

Great knowledge!

I vaguely recall seeing a commonality between Aldi's and Trader Joe's. Any recall of Lidl is faint.

GOOD READ:

What is Lidl? Why this discount grocery store is giving Aldi a run for its money
June 18, 2020 By Katie Jackson - TODAY

The issue with Kroger trying a smaller format would be similar to what Walmart experienced. To a degree they would be competing with themselves. That said, IIRC the DUS King Soopers is about 35,000 Sq Ft. The Kroger store recently opened in downtown Phx is 67,000 Sq Ft so pretty nice size.

Noted!

Originally Posted by mr1138

To be completely honest, I always just skip past every TakeFive post, and this forum suddenly becomes somewhat readable again.

But thanks for stopping by and expressing your opinion.

[spr8364]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I feel like sometimes you’re just talking because you like to talk, even when you’re not quite sure what you’re talking about. Trader Joe’s is dirt cheap and has everything. It’s not boutique and it’s not upscale.

I've been to Trader Joe's about 3- or 4-times and have found that the prices are consistently more expensive than KS or Safeway and probably even Sprouts. Especially for fresh food. They seem to specialize in boxed foods. I haven't been there in a few years though, so maybe things have changed.

[TakeFive]

Tomorrow tomorrow I love you tomorrow



Rendering courtesy of Goettsch Partners

https://milehighcre.com/denvers-largest-class-a-office-project-breaks-ground-this-week/

This Thursday, April 21, Riverside Investment & Development Company in partnership with Convexity Properties and Canyon Partners Real Estate will officially break ground on 1900 Lawrence, a Class A trophy office tower in downtown Denver. The 30-story project, totaling over 700,000 square feet of office space and 10,000 square feet of ground-level retail, will be the largest office building to be built downtown in more than 40 years with completion slated for Q2 2024.

What's New?

“1900 Lawrence will set new standards for the workplace environment, so as to empower businesses and their employees,” said Chris Payne, vice president for Riverside. “As the premier office building in Denver, the project is designed to include next-generation innovations in sustainability, health and wellness, technology, and amenity programming. We are excited to deliver an industry-leading office building that promotes collaboration and creativity.”

Who are some of the players?

Hensel Phelps is the general contractor for the project which is designed by renowned architect Goettsch Partners. JLL Managing Director Jamie Roupp will manage the leasing of the project.

Why is this a good location?

....commented Roupp. ”High-quality projects with proximity to LoDo will be in high demand for top employers, particularly given the size, scale, and views 1900 Lawrence offers.”

Note:

IIRC from previous research Convexity Properties/Don Wilson of Chicago has been a co-investor in all of Riverside Investment & Development office tower projects in Chicago.

Canyon Partners Real Estate is located in Los Angeles, CA and could be providing debt and/or equity.

Canyon Partners Real Estate has invested in commercial real estate debt and equity transactions since 1991, seeking to provide attractive risk-adjusted returns to investors and flexible financing solutions to sponsors.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I feel like sometimes you’re just talking because you like to talk, even when you’re not quite sure what you’re talking about. Trader Joe’s is dirt cheap and has everything. It’s not boutique and it’s not upscale.

What's wrong with liking to talk? And in this point I completely agree with him. TD's is small, specialized, and in my experience expensive. Except for one specific brand of wine and that's it.

In L.A. every one I went to was in upscale neighborhoods.

Here in Orlando all one of them that I've been to is in the richest adjacent neighborhood of the city (Winter Park).

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by coolmandan03

Piggly Wiggly is owned by C&S Wholesale Grocers, who also provides wholesale procurement, category management, pricing, marketing and advertising, merchandising, business and accounting, as well as store design and engineering for Safeway. So they're not that different.

Seems like the grocery chains are just consolidating until we eventually only have one option.

I remember back in college in SoCal we had Albertsons, Vons, Ralphs, Alpha Beta, Lucky's and Stater Bros. Now it's just down to Vons, Ralphs and Stater Bros. Well, they do have Aldi and Food 4 Less now.

I'll see how that new Clark's turns out in Lowry. I don't know if that chain is really a direct competitor to main line grocery stores.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Fair enough


Eh, perhaps I should have said 'eclectic' or even 'bohemian' (I didn't mention their pricing).

Here's the listing for Colorado Trader Joe's locations. You might notice that other than in 'the city' most stores in the metro area are in the south metro area.

Trader Joe's does have somewhat of a cult following:

Here’s Why Trader Joe’s Stores Are So Small
June 25, 2019 By Lauren Wicks

So why are their stores intentionally on the small side?


to all Trader Joe's fans; may you live a long life.

I shop at the one on Co Blvd. regularly. The small interior isn't an issue for me, but the small parking lot is. That must be a thing for them too... always make parking a hassle.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

What's wrong with liking to talk? And in this point I completely agree with him. TD's is small, specialized, and in my experience expensive. Except for one specific brand of wine and that's it.

In L.A. every one I went to was in upscale neighborhoods.

Here in Orlando all one of them that I've been to is in the richest adjacent neighborhood of the city (Winter Park).

I find TJs to be cheaper on many things. All wine seems to be cheaper, but I also get my coffee beans there for $6, and it tastes like $12 Starbucks beans. I think it can depend, but for what I buy, TJs is typically cheaper than similar products elsewhere.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I find TJs to be cheaper on many things. All wine seems to be cheaper, but I also get my coffee beans there for $6, and it tastes like $12 Starbucks beans. I think it can depend, but for what I buy, TJs is typically cheaper than similar products elsewhere.

It's also been a LOOOOONG time since I actually got my own groceries and coffee in my house has to come in sets of 3lb bags to keep my husband and I awake enough to work and that's from Amazon.

sooooo your data is likely more up to date.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

What's wrong with liking to talk? And in this point I completely agree with him. TD's is small, specialized, and in my experience expensive. Except for one specific brand of wine and that's it.

In L.A. every one I went to was in upscale neighborhoods.

Here in Orlando all one of them that I've been to is in the richest adjacent neighborhood of the city (Winter Park).

The smallness of is deceiving. It’s AMAZING how much stuff they pack into that store. They have everything. And it’s cheap. When I compare their prices to similar products of similar quality that can be found at Whole Foods and the like, I’m actually a bit shocked. I don’t know how they do it. Like all of the Amy’s Organics products they have rebranded as their own brand. It’s like half the cost of what it would be with an Amy’s label at Whole Foods, Sprouts, Natural Grocers, etc. 1 lb bags of organic nuts that would cost double anywhere else, the coffee (as was mentioned)… I buy these huge bottles of organic cold-pressed green juice for less than six bucks. How is that possible! Anywhere else it would be double that. I don’t know, it just seems obviously cheap to me.

It doesn’t feel eclectic or bohemian to me to buy groceries at a place that suits the type of person who eats organic leafy greens for lunch every day (which I do). I’ve been shopping there for 15 years so I guess it feels normal to me. When I found out there’re now TJ’s out here in Colorado, that was actually a little part of what encouraged me to move back. It would be hard for me to live without TJ’s at this point. The same stuff anywhere else would just be so damn expensive.

Anyway, we should stop talking about groceries lol

Edit: I do have to say though, it’s nice to have a Kroger or Walgreens nearby for getting your Charmin ultra and your cleaning products that, you know, actually clean - unlike the “natural” cleaning products they sell at TJ’s that don’t actually clean anything, lol

[jbssfelix]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

The smallness of is deceiving. It’s AMAZING how much stuff they pack into that store. They have everything. And it’s cheap. When I compare their prices to similar products of similar quality that can be found at Whole Foods and the like, I’m actually a bit shocked. I don’t know how they do it. Like all of the Amy’s Organics products they have rebranded as their own brand. It’s like half the cost of what it would be with an Amy’s label at Whole Foods, Sprouts, Natural Grocers, etc. 1 lb bags of organic nuts that would cost double anywhere else, the coffee (as was mentioned)… I buy these huge bottles of organic cold-pressed green juice for less than six bucks. How is that possible! Anywhere else it would be double that. I don’t know, it just seems obviously cheap to me.

It doesn’t feel eclectic or bohemian to me to buy groceries at a place that suits the type of person who eats organic leafy greens for lunch every day (which I do). I’ve been shopping there for 15 years so I guess it feels normal to me. When I found out there’re now TJ’s out here in Colorado, that was actually a little part of what encouraged me to move back. It would be hard for me to live without TJ’s at this point. The same stuff anywhere else would just be so damn expensive.

Anyway, we should stop talking about groceries lol

Edit: I do have to say though, it’s nice to have a Kroger or Walgreens nearby for getting your Charmin ultra and your cleaning products that, you know, actually clean - unlike the “natural” cleaning products they sell at TJ’s that don’t actually clean anything, lol

Key is they generally have only a couple SKUs of a particular product. For example, only about 5-6 varieties of oatmeal...overnight, instant, traditional, etc...as opposed to 150+ SKUs of oatmeal according to a cursory search of my local King Soopers. Therefore, TJ's can still carry everything you need without 4x the square footage.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I shop at the one on Co Blvd. regularly. The small interior isn't an issue for me, but the small parking lot is. That must be a thing for them too... always make parking a hassle.

Annnnnd the conversation has come full circle. You mean you don't ride the bus to the grocery store? Or ride in an Uber with TakeFive?

I enjoyed this article this morning:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022...missions-infrastructure-environment.html

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Now that Amacon and 1900 Lawrence have broken ground, what do you all think will be the next +30 story building to break ground?

[TakeFive]

Love this photo by Kevin J. Beaty/Denverite



A mural by Robin Munroe adorns the side of the future Denver Public Library Branch at the ArtPark Community Hub off Brighton Boulevard in RiNo.
Five Points, Aug. 19, 2021. Kevin J. Beaty/Denverite

I think SirLucasTheGreat mentioned the new ArtPark in RiNo recently and Esteban L. Hernandez/Denvrite has a nice piece about the new library and its new name.

https://denverite.com/2022/04/21/denver-...be-named-after-local-artist-bob-ragland/

The Denver Public Library said on Thursday that its newest library will be named after Bob Ragland, a Black visual artist, teacher and longtime resident of Whittier and Five Points neighborhood.

The library is supposed to serve the Five Points, Cole, Globeville and Elyria-Swansea neighborhoods.

Just one more example of (how I like) neighborhood activation.