DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[Brainpathology]

What world is this where people don't use SHIPT or some other similar service to get groceries? Half the time I'm not even sure which actual building my shopper is going to because it sometimes depends on what side of town they are coming from.

People won't go car free because they like doing FUN things with cars. There hasn't been a NEED for cars to do most errands since something happened that made going out in public dangerous for a while.

I've only really relied and loved transit for getting to and from work. And since the current couple of young generations don't want to work anymore there isn't really going to be much need for it for a while. At least until "influencers" start looking less pretty and have to actually DO or MAKE something to get their food and shelter.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Are there any other fellow millennials on this forum? I get the impression that it is 60% boomer, 30% generation X, and then the rest is millennial, zoomer, silent generation, etc...

[TakeFive]

You did feed into my curiosity

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

You could also pay $10 for a Zipcar to get your groceries.

https://www.ridester.com/zipcar-rental-rates/

$25 application fee · $7/month subscription fee · $9+/hour rental fee (average starting cost) or · $74/day rental fee

So $10/hr in Denver... so I'd assume that if one has convenient access then Zipcar could be a good option. I see where basic fee covers limited liability insurance; if you want better insurance in the event of ... then not sure how that works.

[twalm]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

There's a King Soopers one stop north at Bellview and there will be a Whole Foods one stop south at Orcahard. Normies just think the train is scary.

That King Soops is the closest one, but it is not a a reasonable walking distance from the station. And that Whole foods is not even a formal thing.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Are there any other fellow millennials on this forum? I get the impression that it is 60% boomer, 30% generation X, and then the rest is millennial, zoomer, silent generation, etc...

I think there's one Boomer (just so outspoken that they're overrepresented as they are in society), a bunch of Gen X'ers but most are Millennials and Zoomers.

[TakeFive]

Interesting Comment

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

What world is this where people don't use SHIPT or some other similar service to get groceries? Half the time I'm not even sure which actual building my shopper is going to because it sometimes depends on what side of town they are coming from.

People won't go car free because they like doing FUN things with cars. There hasn't been a NEED for cars to do most errands since something happened that made going out in public dangerous for a while.

I've only really relied and loved transit for getting to and from work. And since the current couple of young generations don't want to work anymore there isn't really going to be much need for it for a while. At least until "influencers" start looking less pretty and have to actually DO or MAKE something to get their food and shelter.

Out here it's Instacart; I've also read that DoorDash is doing grocery deliveries. I assume that some still want the experience of picking out what they want which means they can count on getting what they want rather than rely on a 3rd party.

BTW, I'm gonna start doing DoorDash this week (but not groceries). It's less wear and tear on my vehicle and much less gas costs compared to Uber/Lyft. I'll prolly do rideshare over the weekends (Fri-Sun) when Uber offers better bonuses - potentially through July 4 at which point I'm back to being retired until September.

Are you giving me credit for 60%? That's very nice of you but I'm just one lonely soul.

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Are there any other fellow millennials on this forum? I get the impression that it is 60% boomer, 30% generation X, and then the rest is millennial, zoomer, silent generation, etc...

Partly, we've had a few Millennials move away recently.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by twalm

That King Soops is the closest one, but it is not a a reasonable walking distance from the station. And that Whole foods is not even a formal thing.

I feel like that King Soopers is maybe just a little bit of a longer distance than it would be from Louisiana to the Whole Foods. Looks like it's about an extra 1/8 of a mile. The whole walk would be less than half a mile one way. Doesn't seem that bad. Though with the added wait time of waiting for the train and walking back from Bellview Station you're probably looking at a 30 minute trip each way.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

What world is this where people don't use SHIPT or some other similar service to get groceries? Half the time I'm not even sure which actual building my shopper is going to because it sometimes depends on what side of town they are coming from.

Jen Psaki feels your (kids) pain. She is so impressive and really good at what she does.

[Sam Hill]

I’m not a cart user - always use the baskets - but I’m 99.99% sure they all have some mechanism that locks the wheels when the cart reaches the edge of store property so homeless people can’t steal them.

Every day I see many people carrying a bag or two of groceries through the neighborhood. Like literally a quarter of the pedestrian traffic is people carrying groceries. Not once have I seen groceries being rolled down the street in a cart.

TakeFive, that was one interesting image you put in my head.

[RyanD]

Denver / Colorado need more grocery chains. It seems like our reliance on Kroger and Albersons as our "staple" brands is turning a lot of the city into a grocery desert. Why can't we be like the south where they have 7-8 major brands and then your typical TJ, WF, etc.


I've lived within a 2 block radius of a grocery store for the past 5 years and have decided that it has become a requirement wherever I live. Walking to the grocery store is such a great thing.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Denver / Colorado need more grocery chains. It seems like our reliance on Kroger and Albersons as our "staple" brands is turning a lot of the city into a grocery desert. Why can't we be like the south where they have 7-8 major brands and then your typical TJ, WF, etc.


I've lived within a 2 block radius of a grocery store for the past 5 years and have decided that it has become a requirement wherever I live. Walking to the grocery store is such a great thing.

I've thought the same thing about grocery stores. So little variety here, with only Safeway and KS as the regular store chains. But I can walk to KS... no way I could stand living far from a grocery store. Maybe we can petition Piggly Wiggly!

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by RyanD

I've lived within a 2 block radius of a grocery store for the past 5 years and have decided that it has become a requirement wherever I live. Walking to the grocery store is such a great thing.

Yes! A requirement for me too!

I’m lucky. I live within six blocks of a Trader Joe’s, natural grocers, Whole Foods, King Soopers, and I’m seven blocks from Safeway. Trader Joe’s is the closest one. I love Trader Joe’s.

My relatives who live in the suburbs drive long distances to get all their groceries from… Walmart. Yikes!

[mr1138]

It seems that in a LOT of urban neighborhoods or TOD areas, Trader Joe's is the only grocer operating in Colorado that would make sense. Kroger and Safeway seem to want such HUGE stores, and are resistant to planning stores anywhere they can't have a giant surface parking lot (the only exception being Downtown proper).

I recently heard from a trusted source that many national grocery chains have put any expansion on hold because of significant consumer-driven changes since the pandemic. It's too bad because after all the hype, the Denver area still only has 5 Trader Joe's (6 if you count their Boulder location). I expected a lot more locations by now.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree that if one believes in public transit, then they need to be willing to actually ride the train to other stops in order to do certain errands.

[RyanD]

Forgot about Choice. They are good and fill in a gap. I went to the Golden Triangle one the other week and they have a pretty good selection for a quick grocery run. Much better than a convenience store but not a full service grocery replacement.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Are there any other fellow millennials on this forum? I get the impression that it is 60% boomer, 30% generation X, and then the rest is millennial, zoomer, silent generation, etc...

^Ay!

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I feel like that King Soopers is maybe just a little bit of a longer distance than it would be from Louisiana to the Whole Foods. Looks like it's about an extra 1/8 of a mile. The whole walk would be less than half a mile one way. Doesn't seem that bad. Though with the added wait time of waiting for the train and walking back from Bellview Station you're probably looking at a 30 minute trip each way.

In case any on this forum need a reminder, folks who are taking public transportation for stuff like groceries and essential errands are typically doing so out of necessity, not choice - yes there are always exceptions but it's prudent to address the rule, not the exception as TakeFive rightly points out. Further, those folks are used to waiting on a slow public transportation system which is often delayed unexpectedly. Further still, they suffer the consequences of 1) having to take public transportation and being late to work through no fault of their own, unable to get to work entirely, and the impacts that has on their overall livelihood, and 2) the loss of time associated with using public transportation for all other things in life besides work - healthcare, child care, school, recreation, etc etc.

To me, Denver is in this weird transition period where we are becoming more dense, but we are not nearly as dense as we need to be to support 15 minute communities. The 15 minute community is one reason I do support clustered development. Clustered development casts a long shadow over immediate/existing communities, but it does have the benefit of creating an immediately walkable community over the longer term.

[Sam Hill]

Originally Posted by laniroj

In case any on this forum need a reminder, folks who are taking public transportation for stuff like groceries and essential errands are typically doing so out of necessity, not choice - yes there are always exceptions but it's prudent to address the rule, not the exception as TakeFive rightly points out. Further, those folks are used to waiting on a slow public transportation system which is often delayed unexpectedly. Further still, they suffer the consequences of 1) having to take public transportation and being late to work through no fault of their own, unable to get to work entirely, and the impacts that has on their overall livelihood, and 2) the loss of time associated with using public transportation for all other things in life besides work - healthcare, child care, school, recreation, etc etc.

To me, Denver is in this weird transition period where we are becoming more dense, but we are not nearly as dense as we need to be to support 15 minute communities. The 15 minute community is one reason I do support clustered development. Clustered development casts a long shadow over immediate/existing communities, but it does have the benefit of creating an immediately walkable community over the longer term.

My family often asks why I insist on living “downtown.” (To them, just about the entire city of Denver is downtown. The Denver Zoo is “downtown.” Cherry Creek North is “downtown.”)

Anyway, they often ask, “Why don’t you just live near a rail line so you can find a cheaper place but still live the downtown lifestyle?” They don’t get it at all. They don’t really understand what I mean when I talk about a walkable neighborhood. They don’t understand what a difficult transition it would be for me to live in a suburban neighborhood, having lived in walkable neighborhoods my entire adult life.

If there were a cluster at a rail stop with a TJ, drug store, liquor store, several authentic restaurants (not, you know, Chipotle), maybe a good neighborhood bar… and I could find a nice place there for cheaper? I’d definitely consider it.

The trains would have to be more frequent and run later though, so I don’t get stuck in situations where I have to spend $100 on a Lyft.

(On a sidenote, I wonder if this whole conversation should be in that new thread. Kinda hard not to keep it out of this thread. The conversation just flows that way.)

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

I’m not a cart user - always use the baskets - but I’m 99.99% sure they all have some mechanism that locks the wheels when the cart reaches the edge of store property so homeless people can’t steal them.

TakeFive, that was one interesting image you put in my head.

Yeah, I was referring to more of a suburban area but...

My son, Jeremy, lives where I would define as an urban-suburban. An older rather basic apartment built in the 1980's so the units are smaller ie a one bedroom is 720 Sq Ft - which in the 1980's was "smaller."

He lives along Bell Rd which would be somewhat similar to Colfax especially for it's length. He lives at 14th St so 14 blocks east of Central Ave. With over 650 units the complex has its own Convenience store right on the property. Kitty-corner across Bell Rd is a newer Fry's/Kroger Marketplace (124,000 Sq Ft) and across 14th St to the east is a brand new Aldi's (more on this later). With 650+ apartments across Bell Rd the temptation to roll their carts home is too great.

If you drive/bus/walk down Bell to 7th St there's a Safeway (Albertsons) on the north side and a Target w/ groceries on the south side. A couple of more blocks west and there's a Sprouts Farmers Market and another four blocks west is a newer WinCo - which is an employee owned store out of Idaho known for its grocery chains.

I'm also a 'basket' guy; the exercise of carrying groceries to my car is good for me.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

...Anyway, they often ask, “Why don’t you just live near a rail line so you can find a cheaper place but still live the downtown lifestyle?” They don’t get it at all. They don’t really understand what I mean when I talk about a walkable neighborhood...

Unless a person has lived in a truly walkable place, they don't inherently understand the benefits (like not really having to workout because you get so damn skinny walking all the time for everything). IMO Denver only has one single complete walkable neighborhood - the area which lies 6 blocks in all directions from Denver Health. Within that area is everything you could possibly need and many things you don't. Nowhere else in the entire metro can you find that kind of access - a reason why Golden Triangle is going to be a focus area for development moving forward (and zoning).

Having had the privilege to live in Europe, I just kind of laugh when we talk about walkable neighborhoods here because they are set up so differently and so not-walkable. Their built environment is micro and radically different than ours - theirs provides for 15 minute access to everything one needs and most things one wants. Everything from healthcare to recreation, food, entertainment and schooling is hyper local in the big cities over there. Granted they have a thousand year head start on Denver, but we're just doing it wrong here.

These huge developments we see in Denver will never create the kind of walkable 15 minute communities we seek that cater to pedestrians - perhaps tiny pockets of them where development is really dense, but not for the center city as a whole). IMO, they create a sterile and impersonal experience for the pedestrian/resident - much how I feel when walking around Union Station. Upper Larimer (I refuse to call it RiNo) has the opportunity to morph into something similar to a European village if it's not overtaken by large development, but it's such a small area. Nonetheless, we can all dream here in Denver - all it takes is one dream at a time to shift the standard.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by Sam Hill

Yes! A requirement for me too!

I’m lucky. I live within six blocks of a Trader Joe’s, natural grocers, Whole Foods, King Soopers, and I’m seven blocks from Safeway. Trader Joe’s is the closest one. I love Trader Joe’s.

My relatives who live in the suburbs drive long distances to get all their groceries from… Walmart. Yikes!

For average Joe's and Juanita's, Walmart does a ton of business. After all, there's only a few grocery suppliers anyway. Whether you say Tomato or To-mah-ta they all slice the same.

Originally Posted by mr1138

It seems that in a LOT of urban neighborhoods or TOD areas, Trader Joe's is the only grocer operating in Colorado that would make sense. Kroger and Safeway seem to want such HUGE stores, and are resistant to planning stores anywhere they can't have a giant surface parking lot (the only exception being Downtown proper).

I recently heard from a trusted source that many national grocery chains have put any expansion on hold because of significant consumer-driven changes since the pandemic. It's too bad because after all the hype, the Denver area still only has 5 Trader Joe's (6 if you count their Boulder location). I expected a lot more locations by now.

Trader Joe's is more of a boutique store with sizes ranging from 8,000 to 15,000 Sq Ft and you're more likely to find them in upscale areas (which is fine).

I kinda like Sprouts Farmers Market which are closer to 30,000 Sq Ft and these stores seem to do well in more middle or even lower-middle class neighborhoods as well an in upscale areas. It seems that wherever mom's live or women in general they're more sensitive to the idea of 'healthy' food.

I'd agree with you about changing times for grocery stores but still a banana is a banana regardless.