DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[TakeFive]

Wait a minute... wait a minute... Wait just a minute

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Ehhhh..... it's Central Park (Stapleton) only smaller and without a choo-choo. Or it's Painted Prairie.


It was visionary 25 years ago, not so much now. It's hardly missing middle asides from the duplexes and townhomes, everything else such as triplexes, quads, three-stacks, multiplex's, live-work (not to mention in-neighborhood retail) is still absent.

Central Park and Painted Prairie were easy peasy compared the the NIMBY resistance that Uplands received. Obviously a lot of planning went into Central Park and there's always those that question this or that but in comparison to Uplands it was a Walk-in-Central-Park.

Lack of retail was one of the Big selling points for Uplands, given the retail on Federal badly needs more customers. So far as 'missing middle' goes how many different ways can you slice a tomato? And if you're really curious, Here Ya Go.

[TakeFive]

Quick; somebody tell bulldurhamer that Whittier has sidewalks


Joanne and Gary Goble stand in front of their home in Whittier, built by architect David W. Dryden. March 26, 2022. Kevin J. Beaty/Denverite


GOOD READ:

There *is* a plan to save George Morrison’s home in Whittier
Apr. 09, 2022 By Kevin Beaty/Denverite

[comoneymaker]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Here are a couple of the photos. Apparently, they'll select their buyer on 7.2.21



.

Hey all. Obviously haven't been on in for ever. Any news on this project? And how tall is that supposed to be?

[TakeFive]

A slow developing but interesting story

I happen to see BusinessDen's recent post about developing an RTD Park n Ride lot near 38th and Blake St. I recalled seeing something previously so decided to update myself. KDVR carried the original story (by BusinessDen) back on Aug 20th, 2020 so this one has been stewing for awhile.

RTD received an unsolicited offer from Portman Holdings of Atlanta. Previously, with few good sites remaining in DUS, Portman secured one of them for their first ever Denver development named Union Tower West. Portman Holdings was the brain child of John C Portman, Jr who died in 2017. They are best known for developing "the New York Marriott Marquis Times Square, San Francisco’s Embarcadero Center, and Shanghai Centre."

December of 2015
The RTD Board approved the Unsolicited Proposal Policy for Real Property. It's quite the ordeal to have to go through.

In any case, RTD is now obligated to solicit bids from other interested developers. The original proposal from Portman was for a 16-story office building with two 7-story residential projects.

On April 1, 2022
RTD put out what they call a "Request for Qualifications" to prospective developers for the site at 3800 Wynkoop Street. After reading all the hoops that prospective developers need to jump through it's hard to say the level of interest from others plus the fact that RTD has apparently decided they want to use a Ground Lease.

[bulldurhamer]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Quick; somebody tell bulldurhamer that Whittier has sidewalks


Joanne and Gary Goble stand in front of their home in Whittier, built by architect David W. Dryden. March 26, 2022. Kevin J. Beaty/Denverite


GOOD READ:

There *is* a plan to save George Morrison’s home in Whittier
Apr. 09, 2022 By Kevin Beaty/Denverite

whittier does have some nice sidewalks, some in better condition than others, but try walking around clayton sometime. look at 37th and steele on google maps, for example. directly across the street from a school no less and sidewalks simply don't exist. this is the case all up and down clayton, not to mention the half the normal width sidewalk on busy steele, the same sidewalk style you see around monaco and other places throughout the city that are almost useless they're so tight while hanging the would be pedestrian out over the street. look at monaco and 13th on google maps or pretty much everywhere in those neighborhoods surrounding. all with the fake half sidewalks.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Originally Posted by comoneymaker

Hey all. Obviously haven't been on in for ever. Any news on this project? And how tall is that supposed to be?

Yep. Exciting stuff happening there. Check this out
https://denverinfill.com/2022/03/650-17th-street-is-back.html

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by bulldurhamer

whittier does have some nice sidewalks, some in better condition than others, but try walking around clayton sometime. look at 37th and steele on google maps, for example. directly across the street from a school no less and sidewalks simply don't exist. this is the case all up and down clayton, not to mention the half the normal width sidewalk on busy steele, the same sidewalk style you see around monaco and other places throughout the city that are almost useless they're so tight while hanging the would be pedestrian out over the street. look at monaco and 13th on google maps or pretty much everywhere in those neighborhoods surrounding. all with the fake half sidewalks.

Yeah, I've never understood those "sidewalks". Are they just wide curbs? Totally useless, and they're all over the metro area in other cities too. I've never seen such odd "sidewalks" anywhere else in the country.

[TakeFive]

Nice sidewalks would be nice

Originally Posted by COtoOC

Yeah, I've never understood those "sidewalks". Are they just wide curbs? Totally useless, and they're all over the metro area in other cities too. I've never seen such odd "sidewalks" anywhere else in the country.

Those 'Hollywood' sidewalks are useless. About the only thing they do is provide a nice edge for lawns. They were used a lot in the suburbs. I assume they were some kind of 'compromise' between builders and city interests.

Interestingly, when I think back to the 1980's when a lot of multifamily - whether condos/townhomes or apartments - were built (in the suburbs) they were required to include a more 'standard' size sidewalk. My guess is that multifamily dwellers were seen as more likely to include residents that could benefit from sidewalks.

I also see that Denver started thinking/planning for better sidewalks going back to the early 2000's with a Pedestrian Master Plan adopted in 2004.

The challenge is getting buy-in from the voters.

[TakeFive]

What to think; what to do?

Thinking of the broader electorate I can see many (like me) who don't give two chits about sidewalks. And for those who already have sidewalks why should they care?

There's many obstacles that come to mind but the primary issue is getting voters to buy into a 'basic need and good idea.' Keep the goal to a pragmatic vision.

Pragmatic
- dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Personally, I don't care for the ideological arguments made by the likes of Locantore et al and I assume I'm not alone in not wanting to be lectured to what I should think (that's why I'm a registered independent). The goal should be to win a majority of the vote, not an ideological debate.

It should be easy peasy to sell the idea that "sidewalks are a good idea" for many practical reasons. A $100 per average household is no more than one person's trip to McDonalds. If it were me I'd ask for something closer to $15 per month or $180 per year. You only get one bite at the apple and if people accept the "good idea" of sidewalks the amount is typically not an obstacle.

I still like the idea of a (maybe) 20-year window; I just think it's much easier to sell. Besides, 20 years from now that amount will need to be doubled.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Looks like the west side of the Broadway Station development sold to some developer in Boston.

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/04/13/br...ign=socialflow&utm_content=fb-denverpost

[DenverInfill]

I didn’t realize that stating that pedestrians deserve to be able to walk safely and comfortably anywhere in a city was an “ideological argument.“

[TakeFive]

Nice Find

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

Looks like the west side of the Broadway Station development sold to some developer in Boston.

https://www.denverpost.com/2022/04/13/br...ign=socialflow&utm_content=fb-denverpost

I've heard of them. It looks like they 'start' as a Private Equity Advisor with their HQ in Boston. However, their corporate real estate offices are in Atlanta. They've been mostly a coastal city investor but they do have an office in Dallas. Given that CRE can be a small world it wouldn't be a surprise that they heard of this available site from Austin-based Endeavor Real Estate which owns the eastern parcel.


Image courtesy of (Broadway Station Partners

According to the story GID bought two parcels totaling 4.8 acres of the more than 13 acres available. Endeavor bought the 7.5 acres on the east side.

Here's the article from Denverite on Endeavor's purchase.

Okay, this is interesting; it looks like others developer/investors they started in the suburbs before buying into the city center. GID uses the "Windsor" brand for apartments. They have one complex in Meridian/Lone Tree. They have another complex in Broomfield called Retreat at the Flatirons (and not Windsor).

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I didn’t realize that stating that pedestrians deserve to be able to walk safely and comfortably anywhere in a city was an “ideological argument.“

I didn't realize that either until about three days ago. Now I realize that advocating for sidewalks is the "leftiest" thing I have ever done.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I didn't realize that either until about three days ago. Now I realize that advocating for sidewalks is the "leftiest" thing I have ever done.

As a European, I am just completely lost in this whole conversation to be honest. I mean, I am already a right wing voter in Europe who is somehow left of the Dems on most issues here, but I never thought that sidewalks would be labeled as left, right, or a centrist issue. It's sidewalks.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by DenverInfill

I didn’t realize that stating that pedestrians deserve to be able to walk safely and comfortably anywhere in a city was an “ideological argument.“

That question does kind of sound like a "basic need and good idea" or "sidewalks are a good idea" that I suggested.

So let me reframe and refine what my point was.

While you can 'shame' some people into voting a certain way, generally it is considered much smarter to take a different tack. It's believed that most voters like to make a positive contribution to life as apposed to be shamed into something. Ofc, in national elections "fear" is often a big motivator but not sure that applies here.

Sort of like the difference between:

"Wouldn't it be nice if pedestrians could walk safely and comfortably" as apposed to "if you don't understand what pedestrians deserve then you're a lousy person" (exaggerated to reflect what might be insinuated). The other potential problem is if most people don't feel they have any problem walking 'safely and comfortable.'

It's one thing to preach to the like-minded (choir) who already are agreeable versus soliciting votes from the wider electorate which might have wholly different priorities in life (as to how they spend their money).

Other than as a passing explanation, to obsess over what didn't happen and why decades ago is likely counter-productive. To wit:

Locantore... said that, ultimately, we’re in need of a citywide change in mindset as it pertains to infrastructure. Unlike cities in the east that have funded sidewalk maintenance since horses were a dominant form of transportation. Urban centers on the new frontier largely pushed that responsibility on property owners.

Cars were taking over society and the mindset, said Locantore, was: “We’re never going to walk again!”

Not sure how many people care about the 'horse and buggy' days. And I have known lots and lots of people that liked to walk or jog for exercise and/or relaxation. Many (like me) preferred to jog in the streets b/c asphalt was more 'forgiving' than concrete. Many (like me) went to a neighborhood park to get their exercise. I know, different objective, but:

I also made a couple of assumptions

1. That City Councilors are NOT getting a lot of feedback for needing sidewalks. Chances are the feedback they're getting is about the homeless and crime or other 'wants'
2. That in fact, for most people sidewalks is not at or near the top of their priority list. They may even be more concerned with traffic than sidewalks.

Still, I think the idea can be sold if done in a positive, modest and contributory attitude and manner.

[TakeFive]

Hah; that's funny as well as interesting

Originally Posted by mishko27

As a European, I am just completely lost in this whole conversation to be honest. I mean, I am already a right wing voter in Europe who is somehow left of the Dems on most issues here, but I never thought that sidewalks would be labeled as left, right, or a centrist issue. It's sidewalks.

I would guess that nobody is AGAINST sidewalks; the question is whether it's a priority.

Consider the many reasons that people have given for moving away from Denver. Has anyone said it was the "lack of sidewalks?" I don't think so.

If a random poll was done soliciting people's priorities for the city, among many choices I suspect sidewalks wouldn't fare so well.

One could argue, I suppose, that raising the issue to a 'moral crusade' would better get people's attention. It wouldn't by my strategy but I could be wrong.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Hah; that's funny as well as interesting


I would guess that nobody is AGAINST sidewalks; the question is whether it's a priority.

Consider the many reasons that people have given for moving away from Denver. Has anyone said it was the "lack of sidewalks?" I don't think so.

If a random poll was done soliciting people's priorities for the city, among many choices I suspect sidewalks wouldn't fare so well.

One could argue, I suppose, that raising the issue to a 'moral crusade' would better get people's attention. It wouldn't by my strategy but I could be wrong.

No offense, but this is a pretty simplistic way of thinking about this. There are lots of ways to set priorities, and the top 10 you'd get if you polled people is not the way we do it, and not the way many people (if polled) would say we should do it.

You know what else doesn't make anybody's top 10, but probably qualifies as "basic infrastructure" we accept, and really, wouldn't want to live without? Storm sewers. The fire department. Animal control. Street sweeping. Wastewater treatment. Building inspectors.

If I was in a wheelchair, I would probably care about sidewalks more than any of those things. And in fact, I could probably live my whole life happily with none of them, and be less inconvenienced than I am nearly every day by the condition of our sidewalks. (I suppose an Uber driver in Phoenix is a few decades removed from having to push a stroller around town.)

But you are correct, I have never called a City Council person to express that any one of those things are a priority. Because I take them for granted. It's downright weird that sidewalks do not fall on the list of things we can take for granted.

But your framing it as a "this isn't a top 10 priority" is just... sorry, kind of stupid to me. Let's flip it around and come up with 10 things we'd cut before sidewalks - no less arbitrary, and I bet we could all do it, easily.

EDIT: And yes, lots of people are against sidewalks. Reason #1 is because they've planted their gardens in the public right of way and claimed it as their own. Because in Denver, especially the more suburban areas with the attached sidewalks, the public property line is frequently 7-feet in behind the back of sidewalk.

[TakeFive]

You make very good points

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No offense, but this is a pretty simplistic way of thinking about this. There are lots of ways to set priorities, and the top 10 you'd get if you polled people is not the way we do it, and not the way many people (if polled) would say we should do it.

You know what else doesn't make anybody's top 10, but probably qualifies as "basic infrastructure" we accept, and really, wouldn't want to live without? Storm sewers. The fire department. Animal control. Street sweeping. Wastewater treatment. Building inspectors.

With my well-cultivated thick skin I rarely ever take offense to anything; just leave my dog out of it.

Despite your good arguments it seems that the city's priorities have not included sidewalks - or it wouldn't be an issue.

I am aware of the flooding vulnerabilities and that flood control and storm drains were able to in recent years spend more money towards fixing these issues and it's ongoing. Flooding while not frequent can cause a lot of damage. They obviously deemed it more important than sidewalks.

Most people put the fire department right up there with police - in most cities. It comes under the banner of Public Safety and is always the biggest budget item. Wastewater is critical for several reasons etc.

BTW, I never said anything about being a "Top10 priority;" I was only speaking generally about how people may think of things that concern them.

Perhaps I'm overthinking the issue. If I had a vote, I'd vote in favor but I've almost always voted in favor of a 'good cause.'

EDIT: I almost forgot about this fun, snarky comment.

Originally Posted by bunt_q

(I suppose an Uber driver in Phoenix is a few decades removed from having to push a stroller around town.)

Just to expose myself, my late-in-life son is now 28 years old. But we never got married and he lived with his mom and grandparents on their 'horse' property (although they had no horse) in a rural setting with paved main roads but streets were mostly not paved and no, there were no sidewalks. My daughter was born while I was still attending CU and we lived in Nederland until I graduated; we lived on a gravel street with no sidewalks. IIRC the 'downtown' had wooden sidewalks. Somehow we managed.

Speaking of Uber I'm going to get back out there starting Friday and it occurred to me to check out the sidewalk conditions. In March I worked 24 out of 27 days before taking the last four days off since it was new Uber month. I made bank b/c in Phoenix March only comes once a year (and they offer big bonuses for working) so I've been getting domestic things done in April.

[wong21fr]

Couple of development updates:

-New concept plan was filed for the proposed grocery store at 36th and Downing: Five stories w/ 200-250 apartments, 300 parking spaces and 46K of retail. Looks like it's starting to move forward again. Gensler appears to be the architect of record.

-WTC is starting to move forward through the permitting process again with a bunch of subsystem permits filed in March. Design appears unchanged. Also, they have subdivided the fencing on the site to allow for parking of construction crews that have been working on One River North while also fencing off the portion of the site that is for the office tower.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Nice! I also saw a couple days ago that RTD is trying to find a developer to build on their parking lot at 38th and Blake. The WTC and RTD lots are really prime spots. Hope to see those developed soon