Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[esquire]

I just got back from a trip to BC which included a week in downtown Vancouver. I definitely noticed some changes, not all for the better, but the situation was not as bad as this thread led me to believe it would be. My wife was a little apprehensive about going out on her own in the evening, but certainly in the daytime we did not have any issues whatsoever strolling around through much of downtown Vancouver. I was out at night several times and never saw anything truly alarming.

There's no question that the streets are a bit deader than I remember them being pre-covid, but that's probably the case just about everywhere. There are some more vacant storefronts. However, I did not see signs of true unruliness like what I remember seeing in San Francisco even before the pandemic. More homelessness sure, but again, that's the case everywhere.

The only real exception to that is the DTES. It always had an edge to it but now it looks downright scary. When I was younger I'd walk through on my way to Chinatown (this was 20, 25 years ago) but I'm not sure I'd be too keen on doing that now. It's too bad because it looks like it has had a negative impact on Chinatown itself... its proximity to this rough area has taken a real toll on Chinatown. It would be nice to see Chinatown as a growing, thriving area but unlike everywhere else in Vancouver, Chinatown looks like it has barely changed in the last 30+ years.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by esquire

I just got back from a trip to BC which included a week in downtown Vancouver. I definitely noticed some changes, not all for the better, but the situation was not as bad as this thread led me to believe it would be. My wife was a little apprehensive about going out on her own in the evening, but certainly in the daytime we did not have any issues whatsoever strolling around through much of downtown Vancouver. I was out at night several times and never saw anything truly alarming.

There's no question that the streets are a bit deader than I remember them being pre-covid, but that's probably the case just about everywhere. There are some more vacant storefronts. However, I did not see signs of true unruliness like what I remember seeing in San Francisco even before the pandemic. More homelessness sure, but again, that's the case everywhere.

The only real exception to that is the DTES. It always had an edge to it but now it looks downright scary. When I was younger I'd walk through on my way to Chinatown (this was 20, 25 years ago) but I'm not sure I'd be too keen on doing that now. It's too bad because it looks like it has had a negative impact on Chinatown itself... its proximity to this rough area has taken a real toll on Chinatown. It would be nice to see Chinatown as a growing, thriving area but unlike everywhere else in Vancouver, Chinatown looks like it has barely changed in the last 30+ years.

North America, particularly the US, certainly isn't "everywhere". Have you seen London?

Agree with you that DTES and Chinatown are downright scary now.

[esquire]

^ Fair enough. I was thinking of increased homelessness mainly within the Canadian urban context, not literally in every place on the planet.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's too bad because it looks like it has had a negative impact on Chinatown itself... its proximity to this rough area has taken a real toll on Chinatown. It would be nice to see Chinatown as a growing, thriving area but unlike everywhere else in Vancouver, Chinatown looks like it has barely changed in the last 30+ years.

Not to take any sides, but for a variety of reasons Chinatown isn't really allowed to change. At least, not changed by influence outside the DTES.

Honestly, I think at this point white Vancouverites seem to have a stronger cultural attachment to Chinatown than Chinese Vancouverites do.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Same money currently used to increase police patrols, free needles & drugs, subsidized housing maintenance, health care & emergency response for over doses, graffiti removals, etc.

Lol the Americans fought the war on drugs? Don't make me laugh. So many zombies loitering around major cities these days that would be the biggest joke coming from you. They may be targeting drug smuggling but they totally fail on the control of what's actually happening on the ground and the hoods.

Increased patrols are needed to create that hostile environment, subsidized housing is needed to stop people from going homeless in the first place, and removing funding for graffiti and ER teams is a non-starter. That leaves $7.5 million/year that used to be the safe supply budget - not enough for 300 security guards, let alone anything proactive. So more money and twice the effort for zero gain.

Time for you to do some homework - between Nixon and Bush Sr, DC's solution to the hoods was throwing everyone even remotely shady in prison, even for possession of a dime bag. Your plan will basically create a Canadian gangster rap scene and nothing else.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by esquire

The only real exception to that is the DTES. It always had an edge to it but now it looks downright scary. When I was younger I'd walk through on my way to Chinatown (this was 20, 25 years ago) but I'm not sure I'd be too keen on doing that now. It's too bad because it looks like it has had a negative impact on Chinatown itself... its proximity to this rough area has taken a real toll on Chinatown. It would be nice to see Chinatown as a growing, thriving area but unlike everywhere else in Vancouver, Chinatown looks like it has barely changed in the last 30+ years.

I think there's a difference between the density of people loitering along Hastings versus the actual risk of getting robbed or stabbed. With all the random shootings and stabbings in the city, it's just as likely to happen in the West End or somewhere along Broadway.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

As for what they were trying to do to make things better wasn't much but people were happy, everyday a cleaning crew cleans up the mess and business owners felt like people were caring about the neighbourhood and gave them a little more faith that things could get better.

Somehow I suspect whatever special this was, having been very selective about who they interviewed, as I don't believe anything in San Francisco having improved and people or businesses at large being positive about some turn for the better.

Last time I was there the homeless and druggies were so visible around the Union Square area I stayed at that it was incredible. I remember coming out of my 4-star hotel just to see someone take a dump on the street right next to the building. I was also crazy enough to visit the City Hall area in Tenderloin and man, does it look run down and dead. The small park in front of the City Hall was full if needles and I felt safer when visiting downtown Oakland.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

I think there's a difference between the density of people loitering along Hastings versus the actual risk of getting robbed or stabbed. With all the random shootings and stabbings in the city, it's just as likely to happen in the West End or somewhere along Broadway.

Fair enough. But I will say, the threat perception is much lower in those other parts of central Vancouver. Based on reading this thread before my trip, I was expecting to be on edge at all times, but really, to me it felt like business as usual for the most part in Vancouver except for there being, let's say, only about two thirds as many people on the street as there would normally be. I certainly felt comfortable out there, although notably my wife did not feel comfortable enough to venture out on her own after dark. I had no issue with doing that, personally.

DTES looks like it has become a more menacing place over the years. The situation looks more in-your-face than it used to. For instance, I wanted to visit the Dr. Sun Yat Sen Garden in Chinatown as I hadn't been there in years, and while it happened without incident, it really felt like you had to keep your wits about you. As compared to the rest of central Vancouver, where you can move about more or less carefree, at least during the daytime, DTES/Chinatown feels like the only place where it felt like you really had to watch out as there was a certain unpredictability.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Increased patrols are needed to create that hostile environment, subsidized housing is needed to stop people from going homeless in the first place, and removing funding for graffiti and ER teams is a non-starter. That leaves $7.5 million/year that used to be the safe supply budget - not enough for 300 security guards, let alone anything proactive. So more money and twice the effort for zero gain.

Time for you to do some homework - between Nixon and Bush Sr, DC's solution to the hoods was throwing everyone even remotely shady in prison, even for possession of a dime bag. Your plan will basically create a Canadian gangster rap scene and nothing else.

How New York Became Safe: The Full Story
https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-full-story-13197.html

Basically Vancouver is a lazy town full of folks with lame excuses for the city's failure. Bad things do not magically go away. Authorities need to crack down hard on those who break the law. Full stop.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

How New York Became Safe: The Full Story
https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-full-story-13197.html

Basically Vancouver is a lazy town full of folks with lame excuses for the city's failure. Bad things do not magically go away. Authorities need to crack down hard on those who break the law. Full stop.

This New York?

New York City crime wave continues into 2022 as city rolls out safety plan

Major crimes in New York City spiked nearly 60% in February compared to the same month in 2021 -- a large majority occurring in a small swath of the metropolis -- as Mayor Eric Adams rolled out his plan to combat — violence and crime in the city.

The New York Police Department tracked increases across every major crime category. The city recorded a 41% increase in overall major crime through the first months of 2022 compared to the same period last year, including a nearly 54% increase in robberies, a 56% increase in grand larceny incidents and a 22% increase in — reports, the data shows.

"We've got to get it right," Adams said Friday. "Two months in, we're executing our plan and we're going to defeat crime. I'm clear on that."

Murders increased by 10%, while citywide shooting incidents decreased by 1.3%, with 77 incidents in February 2021 and 76 incidents last month, NYPD data shows.

At last check, we don't have 76 shootings a month. I suppose they should've kept stop-and-frisking minorities?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

This New York?


At last check, we don't have 76 shootings a month. I suppose they should've kept stop-and-frisking minorities?

That's only because almost no one reports crimes anymore!

To be fair we don't have the population of NYC either - a really basic adjustment for that would be for the entire Metro region to have 19 shootings a month. I'm pretty sure we don't have that.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Vin

How New York Became Safe: The Full Story
https://www.city-journal.org/html/how-new-york-became-safe-full-story-13197.html

Basically Vancouver is a lazy town full of folks with lame excuses for the city's failure. Bad things do not magically go away. Authorities need to crack down hard on those who break the law. Full stop.

For someone who complains that 2020 statistics are out of date for 2022 discussions, a 2009 article about Giuliani's 1990s mayoral term is a bit of a reach.

[whatnext]

Wow, just keeps getting nastier:

Vancouver police seek suspect who punched blind man in unprovoked attack
A visually impaired man, was crossing the street and using a cane when the attack took place on March 31 around 11 a.m.
Author of the article: Stephanie Ip
Publishing date: Apr 08, 2022

...Vancouver police said the victim, a visually impaired 69-year-old man, was crossing the street at Thurlow and Alberni while wearing a bright yellow high-visibility jacket and using a cane when the attack took place on March 31 around 11 a.m.

In the middle of the crosswalk, an unknown assailant walked up to the man and punched him in the stomach before fleeing....

https://vancouversun.com/news/crime/vancouver-blind-man-punched-assault

[Klazu]

What a sick, sick justice system we have. I will continue to stay faraway from Chinatown, as there are truly batshit crazy people looking to murder random people in there.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/1-day-jail-sentenc...stabbed-2-people-in-16-minutes-1.5854782

[Klazu]

Additionally, also police officers are now getting jumped by random crazies. They should tazers with a lot lower threshold.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8745020/vpd-gun-grab-arrest/

[MIPS]

Okay, that's a bit much. I can see someone wanting into a place, failing and coming back later with other tools, but pulling out a — and trying again...

Vancouver business posts sign to 'loser and his girlfriend' who fired — at store window



..."At five o'clock in the morning, when it was pitch black out, two individuals came up to the store window and tried to break it. They were hooded [and had] very recognizable jackets and backpacks," Floyd tells Vancouver Is Awesome over the phone.

She adds that the duo came back two hours later. "It was a man and a woman and it looked like he was trying to get back through the window, and when that didn't work, he reached into her purse, pulled out a — and fired it at the window."...

...Floyd says it's not uncommon for her to call for help, but it is uncommon for her to get a response. "It would be great if there was a bigger police presence. I constantly have shoplifters. I had an incident not that long ago with a shoplifter. I ran after him, got into an altercation on the street with him and called 911 and it took them two and a half hours to respond even though I was physically assaulted," she says. ...

- https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local...nd-who-fired-—-at-store-window-5248687

What I'm interpreting from the full article is that the problems are making their way down into Kitsilano, but even then the response is about what you expect anywhere, until someone pulls a —, then the VPD have absolutely no choice but escalate the call.

[MIPS]

‘My lungs hurt:' Vancouver SkyTrain car pepper sprayed

Dozens of people were stuck riding a SkyTrain car April 9 after someone let off bear spray at a station and jumped off the carriage before doors closed.

“As they got off the train, they sprayed pepper spray on the train,” said passenger Melanie H. of Surrey.

“All of us were coughing . . . trying to get air,” she said. “My lungs hurt.”

The train was at the Main Street-Science World station when the incident happened. Passengers were stuck inside the older carriage for the ride to Commercial-Broadway station where the train was taken out of service.


https://www.vancouverisawesome.com/local...uver-skytrain-car-pepper-sprayed-5250779

That is evil. That is straight-up the most evil thing you could do. Calling it domestic terrorism is a stretch but that could of been way more dangerous than it ended up.
From my knowledge, once the doors close on ANY train it's not like blasting a can off on a bus, there is no way to stop it without bursting the doors out and forcing an E-brake. There is nothing control can do either once the train has left without shutting down the line. They can't stop a train and open the doors on the guideway. They were trapped in that cloud for nearly two minutes.

Edited: I wanted to see if something like this has happened before and yes, back in 2012 someone set off smoke grenades in the Montreal Metro and they threw the book at them.

[Metro-One]

I was thinking that is borderline terrorism.

Who ever did that better be caught and not let off on a warning or other typical light —.

If you did that here in Japan let’s just say you wouldn’t be among the general public again for many years.

[Klazu]

What's wrong with people? Imagine having a small baby on that car. There must be footage of the fucker to post online to put him behind bars.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

If you did that here in Japan let’s just say you wouldn’t be among the general public again for many years.

I do seem to recall you have a really nasty history regarding gas attacks in your metro so I can totally see why even an incident like this would be taken absolutely seriously.
Interestingly if this happened last week, the news feeds I gloss over on my coffee breaks aren't talking about it. It's only ViA.