PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

What's negligent about undertaking a renovation of the "podium" without launching a new high-rise development on the roof? Different projects with different considerations. That said, I'm not impressed with PREIT, so I'm sure the residential construction market in the Market East area will come and go before they put much thought into it. Certainly adding residents on top of retail would help the mall, but, unlike their proposals in the 'burbs, it is already in an urban environment and on top of a transit hub.

Negligent in that the Gallery revamp was a $500M endeavor, and it's still mostly mediocre, especially the exterior, and wasted air space is just another example of that.

It is what it is at this point, I was just mentioning it for conversation.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Negligent in that the Gallery revamp was a $500M endeavor, and it's still mostly mediocre, especially the exterior, and wasted air space is just another example of that.

It is what it is at this point, I was just mentioning it for conversation.

I can only imagine the milquetoast in the PREIT boardroom.

Old men sitting around in a big stuffy poorly renovated boardroom retiring to their gilded homes in Gladwyne truly confused as to why their properties haven't succeeded. No connection with any urbanity other than their properties. Completely out of touch.

I knew the whole thing was toast the minute they proclaimed it would be an outlet center on par with Woodbury Commons.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Negligent in that the Gallery revamp was a $500M endeavor, and it's still mostly mediocre, especially the exterior, and wasted air space is just another example of that.

It is what it is at this point, I was just mentioning it for conversation.

Would it be wrong of me to say I feel like the new Gallery is on par with the WTC Mall?

And I like the fact that it actually brings Market St to a a higher standard as well as bringing new stores and pushing for the revival of the whole area?

[Raja]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I can only imagine the milquetoast in the PREIT boardroom.

Old men sitting around in a big stuffy poorly renovated boardroom retiring to their gilded homes in Gladwyne truly confused as to why their properties haven't succeeded. No connection with any urbanity other than their properties. Completely out of touch.

I knew the whole thing was toast the minute they proclaimed it would be an outlet center on par with Woodbury Commons.

LOL milquetoast. This made me laugh. I'm with Allovertown -- jut the rail park upward onto the convention center roof. After that, continue the path onto the Gallery roof. Cut a hole through the center from market to Filbert. Mural on one side, rock climbing wall up onto the new rooftop park on the other. A waterfall somewhere. If they're going to keep it as a mall, good lord at least make it interesting.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Here we go again.

We have the highest gas tax in the nation. We can afford to sweep a highway shoulder more than once every 5 years.

apparently we cannot. Toll roads are the best maitained- its a fact, its not an opinion, in fact its common sense. Highest gas tax in the nation tells you one part of a story- that doesn't mean PenDOT is best funded in the nation- it could just mean support from the general fund is lower. And other states with lower gas taxes still get funds from other sources in government- gas tax is not the only source of funding in PA or in other states. Again, these are facts, not conjecture.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

WHERE?!?!

With an actual sweeper? Or just big debris?

If the roads were cleaned once per 5 years as you said the amount of debris would be overwhelming. I would like to see more, but I have seen clean up crews on I76 and I saw street sweeping on I95 a couple months ago in south philly. They do clean, but it's not weekly or anything. We all get your point but if you honestly believe the shoulders are NEVER cleaned you are delusional.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

2 trucks & 2 Men walking along the shoulder picking up the big stuff & throwing it in the dump trucks. No street sweepers atleast yet.

Also I was just in the areas around Lehigh & Kensington & they do have the street sweepers out in full force.

Its actually pretty nice to see some cleaning going on around the city again. Quality of life improvements are surly underway.

You didnt really see any street sweepers- stop the lies! Next thing I know you will be saying Streets Dept workers pick up trash without dropping half the load outside of the truck. Per what I see from outraged people on social media who do nothing but complain these workers create more litter than citizens because they dont put the trash in the truck.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by cardeza

If the roads were cleaned once per 5 years as you said the amount of debris would be overwhelming. I would like to see more, but I have seen clean up crews on I76 and I saw street sweeping on I95 a couple months ago in south philly. They do clean, but it's not weekly or anything. We all get your point but if you honestly believe the shoulders are NEVER cleaned you are delusional.

It’s not enough for one of the 3 or 4 largest Megalopolisis in the country. It’s not just Philadelphians who use our highways.

I’ve actually documented a piece of debris off the 676W to 76E curly-cue ramp (a pair of pink underwear) that’s been their for 6 months. Lots of photos, like a timelapse of sad neglect.

I’ve tweeted at the city and PENNDOT about these things and the city reminds me that PENNDOT is in charge of this sweeping and PENNDOT reminds me that they (shockingly) sweep around Philly more than anyplace else in the state.

[iheartphilly]

^
They definitely need to increase the frequency of cleaning on I-95, preferably at night and off peak hours. I've been on I-95 around the stadium complex all the way to the Girard Point Bridge when they cleaned during the morning rush hour and it almost slows traffic to a standstill. On a related matter it looks like they also stopped vegetation control on the highway median as well near the airport.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

For sure the hybrid model is here to stay but for people to act like nobody is going back to the office ever again are completely offbase.

I've been commuting to the WTC in NY 2X a week for my job and every day my Amtrak train is oversold. Anyone who gets on in Trenton is standing. This has been the case every week since the beginning of March. I transfer at Newark Penn to the PATH and yesterday the PATH trains were shoulder to shoulder.

I feel like I've been one of the most vocal critics here of what I believe is a completely misguided effort to push people back into the office full time and even I totally agree that of course people will still go into the office.

I never go into the office, but I also currently have a 4 year old and a newborn. In general, I'd honestly be in the office most days. I enjoy walking to work, I enjoy getting out of my house, I enjoy having a separate place distinct from my residence where I work.

When I say to forget it, no one is ever going back to how it was before, I definitely don't mean to say no one is ever going back into work. Philadelphia should be proactive in trying to think of what the future of white collar work looks like. Maybe everyone has smaller offices in center city, but that can also create opportunities. Maybe with people coming into the office less, having an office downtown matters less? Maybe this opens the door to more offices and jobs headquartered in other neighborhoods? Maybe zoning needs to be loosened so smaller flexible office spaces can be built in residential neighborhoods.

My point is simply, it's not a bad thing that companies in Philly more than most places don't foresee a return to 40 hour workweeks in an office. Regardless of how hard a city pushes for something like that, it ain't happening and it's best not to waste effort on a pipe dream. Rather than trying to get back to 2019, we need to be thinking about what 2025 will look like.

I agree the hybrid model is here to stay, and with Philadelphia's highly populous downtown, we're already in a position to be hurt by this change less than nearly every city in America. If we play this right, this could be very advantageous for this city.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I can only imagine the milquetoast in the PREIT boardroom.

Old men sitting around in a big stuffy poorly renovated boardroom retiring to their gilded homes in Gladwyne truly confused as to why their properties haven't succeeded. No connection with any urbanity other than their properties. Completely out of touch.

I knew the whole thing was toast the minute they proclaimed it would be an outlet center on par with Woodbury Commons.

Haha, agreed. The gilded mansions made me think of the Gilded Age show on HBO.

I too knew it would be a miss when the plan was to add high-end outlets and leave the structure largely intact.

If PREIT gave this forum $500M to revamp the Gallery, I guarantee we could do a better job, it's not rocket science as to what works in a big urban city, see National Real Estates development across the street.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Haha, agreed. The gilded mansions made me think of the Gilded Age show on HBO.

I too knew it would be a miss when the plan was to add high-end outlets and leave the structure largely intact.

If PREIT gave this forum $500M to revamp the Gallery, I guarantee we could do a better job, it's not rocket science as to what works in a big urban city, see National Real Estates development across the street.

Wait... you're telling me that the Gal--Fashion District still has terrible street-level interaction, despite the renovations? And that the East Market Development across the street is a far better example of holistically healthy urbanism, specifically in Philly?
But PREIT tried so hard! They made the interior look like KOP and then half-assed a facade replacement at ground level! It still totally doesn't suffer from most of the same problems that the original structure faced!

Literally the only improvements that have come as a result of the reconstruction are the AMC/Round 1. Every time I have visited the Fashion Gallery I have only gone to those two locations.
If you gave me $500M, I would use it to raze the building and build something new in its place. This should be a gateway to Chinatown from East Market.

[Vince_]

Building a new Sixers arena at the Disney hole lot at 8th and Market is what the Gallery/area needs. (or maybe they should have blown up the Gallery and put the Sixers arena there haha)

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Vince_

Building a new Sixers arena at the Disney hole lot at 8th and Market is what the Gallery/area needs. (or maybe they should have blown up the Gallery and put the Sixers arena there haha)

While I see the reasoning for this, I don't think it would work. Even if you demolished the historical building on site (which I don't think should be done), the block is a bit too small for a basketball stadium. The area also needs more solid ground-floor retail tenants; something that probably wouldn't be considered for the site.

The block that the old Roundhouse sits on, however...

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

While I see the reasoning for this, I don't think it would work. Even if you demolished the historical building on site (which I don't think should be done), the block is a bit too small for a basketball stadium. The area also needs more solid ground-floor retail tenants; something that probably wouldn't be considered for the site.

The block that the old Roundhouse sits on, however...

That would be a decent spot as well and probably more realistic but less rail connections. The Barclay's Center in Brooklyn is on slightly smaller lot than the 8th and Market lot. It would be such a game changer for Market East area to have 20,000 people out and about on a Tuesday for a game or concert. It would be a huge deal for Septa as well.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Vince_

That would be a decent spot as well and probably more realistic but less rail connections. The Barclay's Center in Brooklyn is on slightly smaller lot than the 8th and Market lot. It would be such a game changer for Market East area to have 20,000 people out and about on a Tuesday for a game or concert. It would be a huge deal for Septa as well.

I suppose it's certainly a better use of the site than what's currently there, but I would still prefer to see a higher use of the site. Something mixed use, that preserves the historic building. But I can't deny it would be a game changer.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by William Van Alen

I think PREIT has a pretty small stake in FD at this point. This is a good piece by one of the only analysts who seems to care about PREIT anymore that gives some idea of the FD situation: https://seekingalpha.com/article/4499638-can-preit-save-itself-before-too-late

According to that piece, PREIT's equity stake is only $16.3 million. As he points out, there's a possibility they just sell their stake to Macerich, but that's probably also dependent on them getting some of these apartment approvals on their other core properties.

I fear that they're 3-5 years late to the "convert your malls to mixed use communities" game.

My question is whether they can keep the mall operating while they construct 15 floors above it. Seems to me that they would HAVE to close the mall for at least a few months to get this done. That could be the deal breaker, at least until they decide what to do with the block across the street - the stretch with the Robinson building.

I remember them teasing an announcement for that block while they were finishing up the Gallery. I guess when the gallery sh$t the bed out of the gate, they backed off on it. It remains one of the only BS stretches on E. Market right now.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Londonee

It’s not enough for one of the 3 or 4 largest Megalopolisis in the country. It’s not just Philadelphians who use our highways.

I’ve actually documented a piece of debris off the 676W to 76E curly-cue ramp (a pair of pink underwear) that’s been their for 6 months. Lots of photos, like a timelapse of sad neglect.

I’ve tweeted at the city and PENNDOT about these things and the city reminds me that PENNDOT is in charge of this sweeping and PENNDOT reminds me that they (shockingly) sweep around Philly more than anyplace else in the state.

The off ramp from 676 onto 76 E (toward University City) is perhaps the most disgusting 100 yards of highway anywhere I've ever seen. You can't with a straight face say the highways get cleaned periodically and look at the mounds of years of road salt and sand built up along the cement barriers of that exit and say anything other than it hasn't been cleaned in 5 years.

At this point you couldn't sweep it. You need a backhoe to come remove the debris.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I can only imagine the milquetoast in the PREIT boardroom.

Old men sitting around in a big stuffy poorly renovated boardroom retiring to their gilded homes in Gladwyne truly confused as to why their properties haven't succeeded. No connection with any urbanity other than their properties. Completely out of touch.

I knew the whole thing was toast the minute they proclaimed it would be an outlet center on par with Woodbury Commons.

I know you're talking facetiously, but I know a bunch of people who knew PREIT's former CEO and co-owner (or part-owner, or whatever), Ron Rubin. He hadn't worked there after 2012, but from everything I've heard, he was a genuinely great guy. Here's his obituary from last year, if you're curious: https://www.inquirer.com/business/ronald-rubin-obit-death-philadelphia-philly-20210413.html

His brother George is still a part-owner of PREIT and from what I've heard is trying to take back majority control of the company, or something like that. I think there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes. But yes, from what I've heard, the current CEO (Joe Coradino) is nothing special one way or the other.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

The off ramp from 676 onto 76 E (toward University City) is perhaps the most disgusting 100 yards of highway anywhere I've ever seen. You can't with a straight face say the highways get cleaned periodically and look at the mounds of years of road salt and sand built up along the cement barriers of that exit and say anything other than it hasn't been cleaned in 5 years.

At this point you couldn't sweep it. You need a backhoe to come remove the debris.

Are you talking about this stretch? Yea, it's awful.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9617863,...6e8rKA9l3a9G77o0iNEMw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9594248,...7e7AoPPTazTm8L7xlFoEg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192