Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I might have more mechanically-inclined circles than you...

Out of curiosity:

Pare-chocs ou "bumper"?
Pare-brise ou "windshield"?
Pompe à carburant/pompe de gavage ou "Pompe à gaz"?
"Mettre du gaz" ou de l'essence?
Capot ou "hood"?
Réservoir à essence ou "tinque à gaz"?

I'm pretty sure even your OQLF Circles have their limitations!

OK so an 18-year-old kid of mine just walked by. SSP quiz time!

The verdict:

Bumpeux
Pare-brise
Essence
Capot
Tinque

Also the trunk is "coffre" and not the traditional and colloquial "valise".

EDIT: Another one was just yelled at me from upstairs. It's "clignotant". And not "flasheux".

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also the trunk is "coffre" and not the traditional and colloquial "valise".

EDIT: Another one was just yelled at me from upstairs. It's "clignotant". And not "flasheux".

My diagnosis is that your kids are at least partially Francosnobs!

Les doubles clignotants = "les 4 flash", pronounced of course cat-flash, en Québécois. La valise is pretty much universal here. I have been hanging out with lower-education people for too long, I think. (Construction employees and tenants... and my gf's circles, too.)

My physicist friends would be the sort to know the actual terms IF they ever know what the stuff is. They wouldn't know a caliper or gasket de tête, but they'll know an étrier or a joint de culasse (in other words, if they have any knowledge of mechanics, it's going to be bookish and not "from the field").

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OK so an 18-year-old kid of mine just walked by. SSP quiz time!

The verdict:

Bumpeux
Pare-brise
Essence
Capot
Tinque

The one thing that I find really weird in there is that to me it's really either "mettre de l'essence dans le réservoir" or "met' du gaz da'a tinque", I can't conceive of anyone using a hybrid version there.

(I'm pretty sure they thought of the words individually... that would explain it.)

[begratto]

Originally Posted by lio45

I might have more mechanically-inclined circles than you...

Out of curiosity:

Pare-chocs ou "bumper"?
Pare-brise ou "windshield"?
Pompe à carburant/pompe de gavage ou "Pompe à gaz"?
"Mettre du gaz" ou de l'essence?
Capot ou "hood"?
Réservoir à essence ou "tinque à gaz"?

I'm pretty sure even your OQLF Circles have their limitations!

I must be a not-mechanically inclined francosnob Montrealer , because these are the terms my teens and I would use :
- pare-chocs
- pare-brise
- pompe à essence
- mettre de l’essence
- capot
- réservoir à essence

And
- essuie-glace
- clignotants

If I used your other options, my kids and their friends would look at me strangely, it wouldn’t be natural. Even my parents and in-laws wouldn’t use the English words.

My kids have noticed that teens in Montreal don’t speak the same way as those who live in the far-flung suburbs or in the countryside (this includes their cousins and the cousins’ friends) , so that might explain the difference in mechanical vocabulary as well.

[Dengler Avenue]

Wow you people use the actual French terms for those. My coworker who grew up in Blainville but later on went to school in Orléans only uses the English terms.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Quebec separatism is never extinct; only dormant.

I completely agree.

However, we may be entering an era where political stance matters more in the classic left/right fashion and less in a pro-federalist/sovereigntist one.

Oh, I fully expect any the new parties on the scene will be pro-Quebec, in the fashion of the CAQ. Nationalist, but not with an explicit position on the same old debate until the times require it.

Which makes finding the political pulse all the more interesting. Maybe the CAQ becomes the next Big Blue Machine for a few decades, morphing into whatever the times require. Maybe a new party to challenge it arises. Or maybe we go back to the same old PQ/PLQ at some point.

[MolsonExport]

The CAQ thrives on its ambiguity. Sort of right on the economic front (but again, only when viewed through the traditionally leftward leaning [state interventionism] traditional Quebec model); sort of smack dab in the centre on the social front (again, from the traditionally leftward leaning yet highly nationalistic and secular Quebec model). Not pro-federalist, nor strongly pro or anti-independentiste, but highly nationalist and very much focused on the promoting the dominance of French and the Quebecois mainstream culture.

Reminds me of the Union Nationale under Duplessis.
It could rule forever.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

The CAQ thrives on its ambiguity.

The CAQ thrives on listening to the people. They're not wed to an ideology. They're there to govern. To reuse a recent post:

Originally Posted by lio45

I've grown to like Legault's style of listening to whatever your constituents want you to do at any given time and doing just that (a.k.a. "flip-flopping"). It's peak democracy.

The populace is afraid of the new virus and demands lockdowns and curfews? Legault delivers.

The populace wakes up one morning reeeeeally fed up and demand it's time to end all the measures? Legault delivers.

[lio45]

This guy wants to make sure the Quebec Liberal Party ceases to exist as a contender:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-language-debate-could-mean-new-party-1.6404307

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

And the NB Liberal Party is increasingly disconnected from the anglophone majority population - a lot of people within the party itself have taken notice, but as anglophone Liberals are becoming a rare breed in the party, I'm not sure how much the remaining francophone members really care. The only value of having anglophones in the party is that it gives the Liberals a chance to elect enough members to form government. Some consider this a deal with the Devil.......

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I've also been noticing the goings-on in New Brunswick, with the obvious trend being towards one party for anglophones and another for francophones.

Not exactly a recipe for harmonious governance and unity in the future if it pans out that way.

See post above: some people want to do the same in Quebec.

Permanent majority government: the Quebec Francophone party
Permanent opposition: the Quebec Anglo party

We can even abolish provincial elections, the leadership race for the Francophone party will serve as the process to determine who gets to be the next Quebec PM.

[thurmas]

Caq is union nationale 2.0 they will likely govern for a long time with the current shape of the Liberals and PQ

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

See post above: some people want to do the same in Quebec.

Permanent majority government: the Quebec Francophone party
Permanent opposition: the Quebec Anglo party

We can even abolish provincial elections, the leadership race for the Francophone party will serve as the process to determine who gets to be the next Quebec PM.

You think the Anglo Party is actually going to manage to remain relevant in that case? They might occupy a weird little corner of the National Assembly, but some overlap with Francophone Quebec is going to be necessary to even be real Opposition and not just a fringe party. The demographics are way too one-sided for that to happen today, no? It would Quebec's version of the BQ, except at a provincial level and smaller proportionally.

Anyway, that old debate is boring because we know the positions already. I am more curious about the debate within Francophone Quebec. They can't be all hive-mind CAQ voters - the polity is just too large and too varied to not have some diversity in political opinion.

[MolsonExport]

Leadership is sometimes not giving people what they want. Making tough decisions that are in the long run, beneficial, even if not popular in the short run (especially to some mob mentality). Lio, you are describing populism.

And Francophone voters are not monolithic.

[MolsonExport]

The populace wakes up one morning reeeeeally fed up and demand it's time to end all English language provisions? Will Legault deliver? Should he?

.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Leadership is sometimes not giving people what they want. Making tough decisions that are in the long run, beneficial, even if not popular in the short run (especially to some mob mentality). Lio, you are describing populism.

Running a democratically-elected government is the art of balancing populism versus pragmatism.

Certainly, the winds favour populism today. Until they run smack into reality at some point. That will be a fun day.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Anyway, that old debate is boring because we know the positions already. I am more curious about the debate within Francophone Quebec. They can't be all hive-mind CAQ voters - the polity is just too large and too varied to not have some diversity in political opinion.

QS is shaping up to be the CAQ's competitor. You are fully correct that something will inevitably emerge to occupy the "alternate party" position; not everyone wants to vote for the CAQ.

I know this girl personally (article below), and she's a surprisingly high caliber candidate for such a "fringe" party (and Dre Mélissa Généreux running in East Sherbrooke is ALSO a surprisingly high caliber candidate--which all tells me, time to update my standards, QS is slowly but surely ceasing to be fringe.)

https://www.latribune.ca/2022/03/15/lavo...-orford-f211a7744541183055b1f8c497de4673

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

You think the Anglo Party is actually going to manage to remain relevant in that case? They might occupy a weird little corner of the National Assembly, but some overlap with Francophone Quebec is going to be necessary to even be real Opposition and not just a fringe party. The demographics are way too one-sided for that to happen today, no? It would Quebec's version of the BQ, except at a provincial level and smaller proportionally.

Anyway, that old debate is boring because we know the positions already. I am more curious about the debate within Francophone Quebec. They can't be all hive-mind CAQ voters - the polity is just too large and too varied to not have some diversity in political opinion.

I'd agree that the anglo population in Quebec is too small, too geographically concentrated and too "single-issue" dominated, compared to francophones in NB, for an ethno-party representing them to be Quebec's permanent opposition.

If such a party gets off the ground, they'll probably end up like the Equality Party of the late 80s, maybe getting less than a half-dozen members elected in the most heavily anglo ridings of central-western Montreal and the West Island. (Out of 125 members in our legislature.) The Equality Party was never really able to score points with allophone voters that much and not sure a party that would be so focused on English rights would resonate with today's allophones, who are also a lot more oriented towards French and francophone Quebec than they used to be. (If not seamlessly so.)

I am also not sure that a "minorities party" bringing together anglos and allophones would be able to find enough common ground to make a go of it.

As Lio said, Québec solidaire could be the CAQ's most effective opposition in the future, but while I agree they are getting good candidates, they're also not really making progress in the polls and are stuck pretty much where they were in the 2018 election.

Since 2018 they've also moved quite a bit in the direction of the "woke" trend that has captured much of the left in North America, and this is a big turn-off for a lot of Quebec voters. Or at least will prevent them from rising much above the 15% level and making gains outside inner(most) urban districts with lots of students and activist types.

An image:

https://c.tenor.com/k3FfitS2UDgAAAAM/triggered-angry.gif

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As Lio said, Québec solidaire could be the CAQ's most effective opposition in the future, but while I agree they are getting good candidates, they're also not really making progress in the polls and are stuck pretty much where they were in the 2018 election.

Right now, there are five "main" parties, four of which have really limited appeal nowadays (the fifth one being the CAQ).

PLQ
PQ
(the two "old" parties, both having lost a lot of steam and the trend isn't stopping...)

QS (stuck in voting intentions)
(new) PCQ

... each may get ~15%-20% of the vote, but none of the four can hope to challenge the CAQ to form government.

For the CAQ to potentially get unseated in our FPTP system, some of those parties would have to merge.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd agree that the anglo population in Quebec is too small, too geographically concentrated and too "single-issue" dominated, compared to francophones in NB, for an ethno-party representing them to be Quebec's permanent opposition.

If such a party gets off the ground, they'll probably end up like the Equality Party of the late 80s, maybe getting less than a half-dozen members elected in the most heavily anglo ridings of central-western Montreal and the West Island. (Out of 125 members in our legislature.) The Equality Party was never really able to score points with allophone voters that much and not sure a party that would be so focused on English rights would resonate with today's allophones, who are also a lot more oriented towards French and francophone Quebec than they used to be. (If not seamlessly so.)

I am also not sure that a "minorities party" bringing together anglos and allophones would be able to find enough common ground to make a go of it.

As Lio said, Québec solidaire could be the CAQ's most effective opposition in the future, but while I agree they are getting good candidates, they're also not really making progress in the polls and are stuck pretty much where they were in the 2018 election.

Since 2018 they've also moved quite a bit in the direction of the "woke" trend that has captured much of the left in North America, and this is a big turn-off for a lot of Quebec voters. Or at least will prevent them from rising much above the 15% level and making gains outside inner(most) urban districts with lots of students and activist types.

An image:

https://c.tenor.com/k3FfitS2UDgAAAAM/triggered-angry.gif

From those I know and have met in the neighbouring region and especially in Rouyn-Noranda, QS is definitely the alternative to CAQ. In fact, the MNA for Rouyn-Noranda-Témiscamingue is QS.

QS is very popular among younger people and those who are very artistic and not pro-capitalism. They have a coolness vibe that the PQ used to have. And the party definitely does have a woke element which is surprising because as Acajack mentioned really hurts them gaining new support. But they really push environmentalism and anti-poverty initiatives which is quite attractive to a good segment of Quebecers but definitely not everyone. While the party is pro-sovereignty, they aren't obsessed about it like the PQ. And they don't really bash Ottawa much at all from my observations. QS is very similar to the NDP in Ontario in many ways but not identical.

The PQ is now seen as a party for older people who want to relive the strong sovereignty movement years between the 1970s and 1990s. A lot of younger Quebecers don't prioritize sovereignty the same way and are more focused on international issued, globalism and of course participate with people from all over the world on social media. They are more accepting of differences compared to the past. There isn't the cultural isolation that there used to be.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by lio45

Right now, there are five "main" parties, four of which have really limited appeal nowadays (the fifth one being the CAQ).

PLQ
PQ
(the two "old" parties, both having lost a lot of steam and the trend isn't stopping...)

QS (stuck in voting intentions)
(new) PCQ

... each may get ~15%-20% of the vote, but none of the four can hope to challenge the CAQ to form government.

For the CAQ to potentially get unseated in our FPTP system, some of those parties would have to merge.

I wouldn't at all be surprised to see an QS/PQ merger. Probably more likely that the PQ just folds and most party members join QS.