High Speed Rail in Canada

[Nouvellecosse]

Also, upon closer inspection, that France map doesn't even show most of France. It just shows a small section of northern France which doesn't even include Paris. You can see the routes leading down to Paris in the south.

I can't believe I didn't immediately notice that. I knew the shape wasn't very France-like, but what actually tipped me off is that a large part of southern France is bordered by water whereas the territory in the map is landlocked in all but the northwest.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Weird how France tends to invest less per capita than the UK given that France's rail infrastructure tends to be the more impressive of the two. Especially since France has a much larger land area to serve (over double!)

That recent surge is probably from the UK starting work on the expensive HS2.



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk...ttachment_data/file/870647/tsgb-2019.pdf

[Nouvellecosse]

^^ Yes that's probably it. I've heard about how insanely expensive it's become.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Weird how France tends to invest less per capita than the UK given that France's rail infrastructure tends to be the more impressive of the two. Especially since France has a much larger land area to serve (over double!)

France must have had a higher investment rate in the decades prior.

The United Kingdom is much more densely populated than France (280 vs. 120 people per square-km) and its passenger rail investments in recent years focused on digging expensive tunnels underneath London (Crossrail), which is awfully expensive. Conversely, France focused more on building HSR lines far away from Paris - and these are often 3P-projects and thus off the government's books (turning capital funding into operating funding)...

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Track space at Union limits options as well. I think you'd see a plan to either tunnel under everything and make a new sub-level, or create an HSR station not far to the west.

There won't be an alternative terminus near Union, especially not for intercity rail...

I too doubt it would follow the CN corridor along the lake. Cutting across the countryside from Hamilton to Fort Erie would make the most sense for speed, and the track may be able to use the existing Townline Tunnel under the Welland Canal. How the line crosses the escarpment and connects to the Lakeshore West corridor around Hamilton would be big decisions too, as would whether there is a stop in Hamilton-Burlington.

Given that Toronto-Hamilton-Buffalo is only 160 km/h, there is no need for HSR to link the two cities. HFR operating every two hours with a travel time of less than 2 hours would be fully sufficient and should be possible along CP's existing corridor...

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

any upgrades to Maple Leaf service could likely be mostly completed along the existing corridor - it's remarkably straight across most of Niagara and could be upgraded to 300km/h fairly easily, minus the dozens of required grade separations, the Welland Canal crossing, and a few curves in Niagara Falls itself,

NY's planned service connects up to Niagara Falls, and frankly, I think it would be a huge miss for HSR to create a new corridor across the southern Niagara Peninsula and completely miss Niagara Falls which would be a huge ridership generator.

The existence of a double-tracked fully grade-separated and 24/7 available railway crossing with the Townline tunnel makes the draw bridge over the Welland canal a deal breaker for any fast and frequent intercity passenger rail service. And as I said before, Niagara Falls is absolutely irrelevant for any cross-border service: NF/ON can be served appropriately as terminus for GO services and NF/NY as terminus of Amtrak's Empire services. Cross-border passengers will have to change trains anyways at the border and that will be much less disruptive in Buffalo than at Niagara Falls.

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Niagara Falls would be a big miss.

There would likely need to be a new crossing of the Niagara River as well, for either corridor. Both of the existing bridges are old and single-track.

Maybe, but given that this would be true of both routes (CN or CP*), this doesn't change the calculation that the CP route is much preferable for a HFR/HSR TRTO-Buffalo service...

*Actually, the bridge at Fort Erie is also owned by CN, as its freight trains don't cross at Niagara Falls, but here (see RAC map)...

[ivegotaname]

A rail line in Maritimes is desperately needed in New Brunswick I'd love to take day trips in my province by rail if I could. But you can only go from Moncton to Quebec and Halifax

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by ivegotaname

A rail line in Maritimes is desperately needed in New Brunswick I'd love to take day trips in my province by rail if I could. But you can only go from Moncton to Quebec and Halifax

There is no reason why there is no multiple daily frequency between Halifax-Moncton-St John.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

There is no reason why there is no multiple daily frequency between Halifax-Moncton-St John.

There is, and it is simple.... it is not the Corridor. The Corridor is all that matters. The rest are an after thought.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

There is no reason why there is no multiple daily frequency between Halifax-Moncton-St John.

There is, because there is nothing a bus couldn’t achieve at a fraction of the operating subsidy a daily train (let alone: multiple trains per day) can achieve, because VIA‘s per-timetable-km is $25, whereas for Ontario Northland‘s bus services, it’s only $1 (as I‘ve shown on Amtrak Unlimited).

I‘m all for studying daily (or better) non-Corridor passenger train services, but I would insist that we study at the same time what kind of extensive intercity bus network we could fund for the same subsidy, as this should help focusing the debate on what really creates value for communities and taxpayers alike…

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There is, and it is simple.... it is not the Corridor. The Corridor is all that matters. The rest are an after thought.

^^^ Only if you think {like VIA does} that the Corridor ends at Toronto. SWO are getting squat from VIA despite having the lowest per-capita subsidy per km travelled in the entire system.

HFR & potential HSR is completely political because if it wasn't then from a financial and economic point of view, Toronto-London would be the FIRST to get such service. VIA is a political apparatus of the party in power and it's small wonder that SWO was completed ignored............Trudeau didn't give a single cabinet post to the entire region while the GTAH got 14.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

There is no reason why there is no multiple daily frequency between Halifax-Moncton-St John.

There are lots of reasons. Money and questionable demand being chief among them. It is less than 3 hours by car from Halifax to Moncton and nearly 5 hours by train. So you are either spending billions on infrastructure to try to induce demand or creating a route that would have limited demand.

[MolsonExport]

VIA service to London has declined by at least half since I moved here in 2005. I used to have several options that could get me to Montreal at various times. Now there is one and only one option. Frequencies of trips to Toronto have dropped.

it makes little sense. London is about 530K, with Windsor nearly 400K, KW at nearly 600K, and Guelph (150K)....yes, I know there are north and south routes, but SW Ontario is densely populated and we could support triple the service if only it were more swift and reliable (and maybe a little cheaper).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

^^^ Only if you think {like VIA does} that the Corridor ends at Toronto. SWO are getting squat from VIA despite having the lowest per-capita subsidy per km travelled in the entire system.

HFR & potential HSR is completely political because if it wasn't then from a financial and economic point of view, Toronto-London would be the FIRST to get such service. VIA is a political apparatus of the party in power and it's small wonder that SWO was completed ignored............Trudeau didn't give a single cabinet post to the entire region while the GTAH got 14.

The Corridor really is between Toronto and Montreal. Outside of that, it is an after thought.

Originally Posted by acottawa

There are lots of reasons. Money and questionable demand being chief among them. It is less than 3 hours by car from Halifax to Moncton and nearly 5 hours by train. So you are either spending billions on infrastructure to try to induce demand or creating a route that would have limited demand.

Run a Saint Johns-Halifax train opposite the Ocean. Problem solved.
But, Via has other concerns.

[O-tacular]

Re-posted from the proposals thread as I didn't know this one existed:

Pretty big news for Alberta, though I still can't get that monorail song from the Simpson's out of my head.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8718640/alberta-ultra-high-speed-hyperloop-edmonton-calgary-funding/

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Re-posted from the proposals thread as I didn't know this one existed:

If it gets built, I will believe that Elon isn't really bald.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

VIA service to London has declined by at least half since I moved here in 2005. I used to have several options that could get me to Montreal at various times. Now there is one and only one option. Frequencies of trips to Toronto have dropped.

it makes little sense. London is about 530K, with Windsor nearly 400K, KW at nearly 600K, and Guelph (150K)....yes, I know there are north and south routes, but SW Ontario is densely populated and we could support triple the service if only it were more swift and reliable (and maybe a little cheaper).

Much of the cutback to VIA in Southwestern Ontario occurred in 2012, when Harper was in power. Aside from Windsor, SW Ontario was solidly Conservative at that time.

I remember when there were multiple trains per day from London to Stratford and Kitchener. You could go up in the morning, spend the day there and see a play, and then walk to the station to come back to London after the play. Can’t do that anymore.

[ivegotaname]

There used to be service from Saint John to Boston for several decades before they tore the train station and put up a hockey rink 93. Rail will never return

[Proof Sheet]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

I think both networks are equally impressive. I'm going to assume France has more highway networks then the U.K so the money needs to be more spread around.

The UK National Rail Service Map

pop (England Scotland Wales) 61,500,000

Vs Frances

pop 65,300,000

I believe that the UK map only shows the main stations on the lines while the France map shows every station.

[hipster duck]

^also, the “France” map isn’t all of France, but the Hauts-de-France region (pop 6 million) north of Paris.

EDIT: Nouvellecosse figured that out first.

[Nouvellecosse]

That map comparison is easily one of the funniest things I've ever seen in all my what, 17 years? on here. Attempting to prove the UK rail network is as impressive as France's by showing how a small part of France's network is so impressive he didn't even notice it wasn't the whole country.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Much of the cutback to VIA in Southwestern Ontario occurred in 2012, when Harper was in power. Aside from Windsor, SW Ontario was solidly Conservative at that time.

I remember when there were multiple trains per day from London to Stratford and Kitchener. You could go up in the morning, spend the day there and see a play, and then walk to the station to come back to London after the play. Can’t do that anymore.

Via cut back service a lot when GO was extended to Kitchener.