The US Census Bureau thread - Page 179

subterranean · #**3561** Posted **Mar 30, 2022, 11:04 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebucket

I've heard the Michigan shoreline area known as the Riviera of the Midwest.

I've never heard of it referred to as that, although I think there are parts of the shoreline that would seriously put people in doubt as to where it is because of the sheer beauty unlike anything else in the Midwest.

Having lived in both states, I liken the TC area to a combo of Bend/Hood River, Oregon. What Northwest Michigan lacks in elevation, it makes up for in water.

They are more local draws that still pull out-of-staters, but not like huge tourist destinations in Colorado or Florida.

What makes places like Bend and Traverse City so attractive is that their nearby recreational opportunities are so many, and the cities are big enough to have a little bit of culture and creature comforts, but if you absolutely need to go someplace larger, you can within an easy day's drive.

A lot of people in Oregon talk about moving to Bend in the same way people in Michigan talk about moving to Traverse City. Both are growing, but the main limiting factor to even greater growth is the lack of jobs. However, many people still move to these places without jobs because they like them so much.

I graduated in downstate Michigan 20 or so years ago, and about half of my primary friend group from home (about a dozen people) have moved to within a 30 minute drive of Traverse City.

Crawford · #**3562** Posted **Mar 30, 2022, 11:43 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterranean

What makes places like Bend and Traverse City so attractive is that their nearby recreational opportunities are so many, and the cities are big enough to have a little bit of culture and creature comforts, but if you absolutely need to go someplace larger, you can within an easy day's drive.

What are the "nearby recreational opportunities" to Traverse City that are so unique?

And Bend is gorgeous. I agree the two cities are talked about in the same manner, but I find it bizarre. Bend is nestled in the PNW mountains. OR has vastly more spectacular scenery than the northern lower peninsula of MI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterranean

I graduated in downstate Michigan 20 or so years ago, and about half of my primary friend group from home (about a dozen people) have moved to within a 30 minute drive of Traverse City.

This is what I don't get. It's almost like the mini-Nashville or Austin of the north. Basically all of MI is in easy proximity to the Great Lakes, so what is it about TC? It isn't particularly hilly, or deep woods or charming. The fringe is all sprawl now.

Marquette is prettier, much more dramatic scenery, better downtown, little sprawl and a university. Better hiking, skiing, watersports. Deep woods within hiking distance of town. There are wolves and moose in Marquette County. Who talks about Marquette?

Steely Dan · #**3563** Posted **Mar 30, 2022, 11:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Marquette is prettier, much more dramatic scenery, better downtown, little sprawl and a university. Better hiking, skiing, watersports. Deep woods within hiking distance of town. There are wolves and moose in Marquette County. Who talks about Marquette?

Marquette is quite nice, but it's about as "middle of nowhere" as places east of the Mississippi can get.

If you're in Marquette and are looking to get to a city, your closest option is Milwaukee, about a 5 hour drive south, and your closest major city option is Chicago, about 6.5 hours away.

If you're in traverse city and are looking to get to a city, your closest option is Grand Rapids, about a 2.5 hour drive south, and your closest major city option is Detroit, about 3.5 hours away.

Those kinds of differences do matter.

Buckeye Native 001 · #**3564** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 12:02 AM**

Joe Pera films his show ("Joe Pera Talks with You" on Adult Swim) in Marquette. Not sure how close to real life it is, though? They did an episode about going to Milwaukee for the weekend.

subterranean · #**3565** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 12:34 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Marquette is nice, but it's about as "middle of nowhere" as places east of the Mississippi get.

If you're in Marquette and are looking to get to a city, your closest option is Milwaukee, about a 5 hour drive south, and your closest major city option is Chicago, about 6.5 hours away.

If you're in traverse city and are looking to get to a city, your closest option is Grand Rapids, about a 2.5 hour drive south, and your closest major city option is Detroit, about 3.5 hours away.

Those kinds of differences do matter.

Yep, it's a lot closer, but not just to major cities. To people's families, too. It's a lot easier to pop down state for a birthday or to check in on aging parents than it is from Marquette.

Plus, TC is a regional center, so it has major medical, state/city/county jobs, a regional airport, etc. And although it does have more than its fair share of sprawl, the downtowns in the area are quaint and vibrant. There's a liberal vibe, which differs from other places in "NOMI", with distilleries/breweries, small businesses, music and entrepreneurialism.

The people I know in the area are pretty recreationally and socially active. One friend owns a sailboat and several others kayak and mountain bike frequently. Another person hikes literally every morning around Interlochen (awesome cultural institution there as well), and cross country skis in the winter. One friend works at a ski resort in the winter and a golf course in the summer. Another friend owns a food production and service related business catering to people near an outdoor recreation hotspots. Another moonlights at a brewery while working for a remote IT department. Several are also musicians and participate in the Earthworks Festival shenanigans.

I think the appeal is not that it's the best place in the world, or that it's super unique, but that it offers a high quality of life close to home.

The North One · #**3566** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 1:18 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by edale

Northwest Michigan, generally, is a very beautiful place. But Traverse City isn't an especially beautiful town-- in fact, I'd say it's one of the uglier towns in that region. Petoskey, Harbor Springs, Charlevoix, etc. are all much prettier.

Uh I guess in a sense. Like among a group of Victoria's Secret models Traverse City would be the somewhat less beautiful one. lol Still fully gorgeous though.

Steely Dan · #**3567** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 1:20 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterranean

Yep, it's a lot closer, but not just to major cities. To people's families, too. It's a lot easier to pop down state for a birthday or to check in on aging parents than it is from Marquette.

A major point.

But you shouldn't expect people like Crawford to fully grasp it.

He made the decision to move far enough away from his family of origin to require plane tickets to physically be with them.

And that's totally fine, it's 100% within an individual's prerogative to do so. And absolutely every major decision in life comes with its own pro/con list.

However, for a lot of other people not named "Crawford", especially those with more limited financial resources, the capability to just hop in the car at a moment's notice and be able to jet down the interstate for several hours to see mom or dad or brother or sister or aunt or uncle or niece or nephew or cousin or whoever the 🞵🞵🞵🞵 is a GIGANTIC selling point.

Not everyone wants to plan ahead several months and book plane tickets just to be with mom on her birthday.

Crawford · #**3568** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 1:26 AM**

I still don't think that's an adequate explanation. It may play a minor role but "TC is the Austin of the North bc it's 2.5 hours from Grand Rapids" sounds pretty contrived.

Muskegon is 30 minutes from Grand Rapids, right on Lake MI, beautiful nearby beaches, and dirt cheap. Why isn't Muskegon hotter than TC? Kalamazoo, also near GR, has two universities, a great downtown, high paying pharma jobs, and is pretty cheap and stagnant. There are shithole towns within commuting distance of NY, SF, LA, Boston, DC and others. Yet GR is this gigantic lodestar for TC?

Steely Dan · #**3569** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 1:33 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

"TC is the Austin of the North bc it's 2.5 hours from Grand Rapids" sounds pretty contrived.

It's contrived because there's essentially no truth to it.

TC and Austin are RADICALLY different places.

If there's any place in Michigan that's anywhere remotely like Austin, it's Grand Rapids, certainly not TC.

You're over-hyping the hype.

Next topic: why are a small number of people moving to Sioux Falls? It's not at all like Charlotte; I don't get it.

subterranean · #**3570** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 2:08 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

It's contrived because there's almost no truth to it.

TC and Austin are RADICALLY different places.

Next topic: why are a small number of people moving to Sioux Falls? It's not at all like Charlotte; I don't get it.

Yeah, I guess I missed it where someone compared the two. I wouldn't compare them at all. And maybe it takes living there to know the appeal. IYKYK.

https://goo.gl/maps/tjW7vd16JmQJyu9A7

https://goo.gl/maps/iwiLVqAZQNTUQcv99

https://goo.gl/maps/efxSnHmua3u5G6ep7

https://goo.gl/maps/Gamz6T2oZXnV8nPi7

https://goo.gl/maps/xv5qvUuNck5ZEhxh9

https://goo.gl/maps/uo7xPeBHndxQ4For5

The North One · #**3571** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 3:38 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterranean

I know, right? Dude takes every opportunity he can to take pot shots at anything and everything Michigan. It’s like an obsession. Hell, I live in a very beautiful place and I frequently find myself missing summers in northwest Michigan. I go back any chance I get.

lol yeah, he's definitely one of those embarrassing Michigan hater types. It's their whole personality almost, like grow up already. I think he just likes the attention here honestly.

But he doesn't get anything that isn't some rent burdened part of New York City, bless his heart. Oh okay I guess also Orange County and Malibu, but other than that North America is a total wasteland.

Bonsai Tree · #**3572** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 5:42 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by subterranean

Yeah, I guess I missed it where someone compared the two. I wouldn't compare them at all. And maybe it takes living there to know the appeal. IYKYK.

https://goo.gl/maps/tjW7vd16JmQJyu9A7

https://goo.gl/maps/iwiLVqAZQNTUQcv99

https://goo.gl/maps/efxSnHmua3u5G6ep7

https://goo.gl/maps/Gamz6T2oZXnV8nPi7

https://goo.gl/maps/xv5qvUuNck5ZEhxh9

https://goo.gl/maps/uo7xPeBHndxQ4For5

^^Never thought I'd see Frankfurt on here. God I love that town.

Crawford · #**3573** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 12:15 PM**

The point isn't that TC = Austin, obviously. TC is extremely expensive, fast growing, and hot for Great Lake standards. Massive sprawl everywhere, huge affordability crisis, etc. The underlying issues are analogous, on a much smaller scale. If you want to compare it to Boulder, Bend or Bozeman, fine. Meanwhile, nearby, generally more scenic areas have none of those characteristics.

Yuri · #**3574** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 2:38 PM**

Random post.

The Atlantic City thread made me think about the sprawl between New York and Philadelphia and how they could eventually merge.

-------------------------------- 2020 -------- 2010 -------- 2000 ----------- Area -------- Growth %

Code:

NEW YORK --------- 22,692,839 --- 21,358,372 --- 20,675,403 ---- 21,770 km² ---- 6.2% ---- 3.3%
PHILADELPHIA ------ 6,245,051 ---- 5,965,353 ---- 5,687,147 ---- 11,922 km² ---- 4.7% ---- 4.9%

NY-PHL Corridor* -- 2,242,401 ---- 2,125,064 ---- 1,996,048 ----- 3,729 km² ---- 5.5% ---- 6.5%

UNITED STATES --- 331,449,281 -- 308,745,538 -- 281,421,906 - 9,149,429 km² ---- 7.3% ---- 9.7%

* Mercer, Middlesex, Somerset and Bucks

The link between them decelerated on the past decade as part of the "back to urban living trend" and now its growth is on the average. I guess future growth there will depend more on the large US demographic trends that points to an overall slower growth.

In short, not much to see there.

Steely Dan · #**3575** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 2:54 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

TC is extremely expensive, fast growing, and hot for Great Lake standards. Massive sprawl everywhere, huge affordability crisis, etc. The underlying issues are analogous, on a much smaller scale. If you want to compare it to Boulder, Bend or Bozeman, fine. Meanwhile, nearby, generally more scenic areas have none of those characteristics.

once the ball gets rolling on these kinds of trendy places for people with money to "escape the city", it becomes its own self-fulfilling prophecy.

why do people with money wanna check-out to a place like TC? because that's where people with money check-out to.

iheartthed · #**3576** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 3:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

A major point.

But you shouldn't expect people like Crawford to fully grasp it.

He made the decision to move far enough away from his family of origin to require plane tickets to physically be with them.

And that's totally fine, it's 100% within an individual's prerogative to do so. And absolutely every major decision in life comes with its own pro/con list.

However, for a lot of other people not named "Crawford", especially those with more limited financial resources, the capability to just hop in the car at a moment's notice and be able to jet down the interstate for several hours to see mom or dad or brother or sister or aunt or uncle or niece or nephew or cousin or whoever the 🞵🞵🞵🞵 is a GIGANTIC selling point.

Not everyone wants to plan ahead several months and book plane tickets just to be with mom on her birthday.

Do we really know that the people filing into Traverse City are predominantly coming from within a 300 mile radius? I think I'm a little skeptical that there are a bunch of folks coming from downstate clamoring to move there. It seems more believable that it's an Austin effect -- people from other parts of the country have "discovered" it.

iheartthed · #**3577** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 3:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuri

Random post.

The Atlantic City thread made me think about the sprawl between New York and Philadelphia and how they could eventually merge.

-------------------------------- 2020 -------- 2010 -------- 2000 ----------- Area -------- Growth %

Code:

NEW YORK --------- 22,692,839 --- 21,358,372 --- 20,675,403 ---- 21,770 km² ---- 6.2% ---- 3.3%
PHILADELPHIA ------ 6,245,051 ---- 5,965,353 ---- 5,687,147 ---- 11,922 km² ---- 4.7% ---- 4.9%

NY-PHL Corridor* -- 2,242,401 ---- 2,125,064 ---- 1,996,048 ----- 3,729 km² ---- 5.5% ---- 6.5%

UNITED STATES --- 331,449,281 -- 308,745,538 -- 281,421,906 - 9,149,429 km² ---- 7.3% ---- 9.7%

* Mercer, Middlesex, Somerset and Bucks

The link between them decelerated on the past decade as part of the "back to urban living trend" and now its growth is on the average. I guess future growth there will depend more on the large US demographic trends that points to an overall slower growth.

In short, not much to see there.

I think what we see now is as merged as they'll get for the foreseeable future. The anti-sprawl policies won't allow them to merge more.

Steely Dan · #**3578** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 3:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Do we really know that the people filing into Traverse City are predominantly coming from within a 300 mile radius?

i have no clue about the in-region/out-of-region breakdown of newcomers to TC, i was just going off of what subterranean said about half of his former friend group from growing up in southern michigan now living up in the TC area.

for those folks, i can imagine that the 3 hour drive "home" to see family is seen as a fairly big advantage vs. fully bugging-out to someplace in another region of the country that requires plane travel to go back "home".

mhays · #**3579** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 3:27 PM**

This is the first I've heard of Traverse City other than seeing it on maps.

Steely Dan · #**3580** Posted **Mar 31, 2022, 3:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhays

This is the first I've heard of Traverse City other than seeing it on maps.

it's a fairly small place, relatively speaking.

and it is growing, but starting from a small base, so overall numbers are still pretty small.

place: census 2020 | census 2010 | growth

traverse city: 15,678 | 14,674 | +1,004 (+6.8%)

traverse city μSA: 153,448 | 143,372 | +10,076 (+7.0%)