PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Bring back Nutter! God I miss those days

Yes! We need to draft him out of retirement! - or I think he’s teaching up at Columbia? Theoretically, he could run again as it wouldn’t be a consecutive third term. I kind of got the feeling from his op-Ed a few months ago that it may have at least crossed his mind at this point.

[skyhigh07]

So a bit of good news about the wealth tax proposal. Latest article in the Inquirer said it’d be a long shot getting it passed with the current City Council. Nonetheless, always a good idea to write to your City Councilperson if you feel strongly about it.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-wealth-tax-sen-elizabeth-warren-20220329.html

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Yes! We need to draft him out of retirement! - or I think he’s teaching up at Columbia? Theoretically, he could run again as it wouldn’t be a consecutive third term. I kind of got the feeling from his op-Ed a few months ago that it may have at least crossed his mind at this point.

If he is able to run again, I hope he does. A lot of what we have in Philly today is thanks to Nutter.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

So a bit of good news about the wealth tax proposal. Latest article in the Inquirer said it’d be a long shot getting it passed with the current City Council. Nonetheless, always a good idea to write to your City Councilperson if you feel strongly about it.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-wealth-tax-sen-elizabeth-warren-20220329.html

I don't think it will pass... I hope not... still, this a COMPLETE waste of time, energy and resources by one of our council members. Imagine how much time she spent on this..... imagine if she spent this amount of time, energy and resources on reworking our tax structure, and proposing a bill that would change the broken tax structure in Philly into one that would actually ATTRACT jobs and businesses and residents.

Or imagine if she spent this amount of time, energy and resources on honing in on solutions to Philly's gun violence problem.

...God these city councilmembers are completely incompetent.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I don't think it will pass... I hope not... still, this a COMPLETE waste of time, energy and resources by one of our council members. Imagine how much time she spent on this..... imagine if she spent this amount of time, energy and resources on reworking our tax structure, and proposing a bill that would change the broken tax structure in Philly into one that would actually ATTRACT jobs and businesses and residents.

Or imagine if she spent this amount of time, energy and resources on honing in on solutions to Philly's gun violence problem.

...God these city councilmembers are completely incompetent.

^ Viewpoint: Wealth Tax would make Philadelphia's population decline even worse

Can we print this and mail it to the homes of Brooks, Gauthier, and Gym?

And to your point, Brooks actually has the sway to focus her efforts on reducing gun violence, addressing economic issues in low-income communities, pushing for local startup growth, etc., but her logic is that taxes (for the wealthier) solve problems. It is an extremist and backward approach to basic economics of a big city. Quite disappointing... and confuses me why some on Council go out of their way to disincentivize economic growth in this city...
And this bill may not go anywhere this time, but things could change (for better or worse) in the coming election cycles. Lets hope for better!

[700 Level]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

^ Viewpoint: Wealth Tax would make Philadelphia's population decline even worse
. Quite disappointing...

It probably would only lead to a slight one or two percent decline in population, at least initially. But you might lose 10% plus of your tax revenue stream. And then the real rush for the exits would begin.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Really dumb honestly. While I support something like this overall, this really should be done at the federal level to ensure equal playing field for all cities and municipalities in the country.

Philadelphia cannot be a leader on something like this. Philadelphia has already taxed itself into being one of the poorest cities in the nation with one of the weakest job markets. The city should be working NOW to reduce wage tax to 2% or below, and get rid of ridiculous business taxes like BIRT and Use & Occupancy taxes, among others.

We're going the OPPOSITE direction that we should be heading in city council. It's really amazing how shortsighted some of these people are. Do they know how easy it is for a wealthy resident to "move." Most of these people own multiple properties. They could easily "move" their primary residence out of the city to another property and there goes the entire tax base of that individual for the city. Period.

Until more cities pass taxes like this (NYC, Boston, San Fran, LA, Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, Dallas).... Philadelphia should NOT be the first to do it.

Generally agree. I am incredibly supportive of a wealth tax in general, but doing it city by city is not the way to do it. Would rather Council members who support such a tax, use their platform to push for it at a national level.

Or maybe pass a resolution that states that once X% of the nation's largest cities pass a similar resolution they all start a wealth tax together. Sort of like how a bunch of states have passed resolutions pledging to base electoral college delegates sent by their state on national popular vote once states representing 270 electoral college votes agree to the pledge, effectively eliminating the electoral college through state action. It's a way to make progress toward a national goal at a local level without unilaterally disarming, if you will.

One thing I have to disagree with though is your idea that "Philadelphia has taxed itself into being one of the poorest cities in the nation." I mean this is just truly ahistorical nonsense, completely untethered from reality. There are many people living in poverty in Philadelphia, there are many reasons why, but local tax burden, has virtually nothing to do with it. This whole line of thinking is completely backwards. Philadelphia has one of the highest individual tax burdens BECAUSE we're one of the poorest cities in America, not vice versa.

[ScreamShatter]

^ When people say “Philly has taxed itself into poverty” I’ve never taken that to mean directly overtaxing the poor. What I think is meant is the taxes contributed to middle class people leaving or choosing not to live in Philly, and the same is true for companies that left the city or chose locations outside the city bc of taxes. These two situations contributed to fewer quality jobs and opportunities for locals and lower tax base in the city.

That’s just my take. I’m sure others have differing thoughts.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

^ When people say “Philly has taxed itself into poverty” I’ve never taken that to mean directly overtaxing the poor. What I think is meant is the taxes contributed to middle class people leaving or choosing not to live in Philly, and the same is true for companies that left the city or chose locations outside the city bc of taxes. These two situations contributed to fewer quality jobs and opportunities for locals and lower tax base in the city.

That’s just my take. I’m sure others have differing thoughts.

Fair. That's definitely a less outlandish statement. But that's also not what happened. It's not like Philly had a healthy middle class and business environment and then decided to tax like crazy. Post WWII subsidized suburbia, subsidized highways, white flight, redlining, etc. is what carved apart this city and destroyed the middle class. Regardless of who you're claiming the high taxes effected, it's still looking at it backwards. The tax increases FOLLOWED the mass exodus of jobs and middle class households out of the city, as the city attempted to hold things together as tax revenue plummeted.

For the people and businesses who left the city toward the end of that wave, the increased taxes may have been a factor that contributed to them leaving. But again, by the time we get to that point, the city was losing tens of thousands of residents every single year largely due to circumstances outside of their control. The tax problem in Philadelphia was created in RESPONSE to population and job loss and rising poverty levels. It's inaccurate to try and pin Philly's taxes as the CAUSE of these issues.

Now, you can certainly quibble with that response. Insane growth of the wage tax was a terrible response, there were a million other better ways to increase taxes/increase tax revenue. But still, the fact remains, the job and population loss led to the tax problems, not vice versa.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by allovertown

The tax increases FOLLOWED the mass exodus of jobs and middle class households out of the city, as the city attempted to hold things together as tax revenue plummeted.

But the City's response to the wave of depopulation was continual tax increases. Fair to say that strategy didn't work and there's some 50 years of data showing that correlation.

[mja]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Fair. That's definitely a less outlandish statement. But that's also not what happened. It's not like Philly had a healthy middle class and business environment and then decided to tax like crazy. Post WWII subsidized suburbia, subsidized highways, white flight, redlining, etc. is what carved apart this city and destroyed the middle class. Regardless of who you're claiming the high taxes effected, it's still looking at it backwards. The tax increases FOLLOWED the mass exodus of jobs and middle class households out of the city, as the city attempted to hold things together as tax revenue plummeted.

For the people and businesses who left the city toward the end of that wave, the increased taxes may have been a factor that contributed to them leaving. But again, by the time we get to that point, the city was losing tens of thousands of residents every single year largely due to circumstances outside of their control. The tax problem in Philadelphia was created in RESPONSE to population and job loss and rising poverty levels. It's inaccurate to try and pin Philly's taxes as the CAUSE of these issues.

Now, you can certainly quibble with that response. Insane growth of the wage tax was a terrible response, there were a million other better ways to increase taxes/increase tax revenue. But still, the fact remains, the job and population loss led to the tax problems, not vice versa.

First of all, this is exactly what anyone means when they say Philadelphia taxed itself into poverty, not that taxes made anyone poor. It seems rather self-evident to me, so your apparent misunderstanding of the claim seems disingenuous.

Also, you can't separate these two events out the way you'd like, as they're part of a reinforcing loop.

The city HAS to have a tax base, and it has to increase it. That's the only way forward and it needs to be the focus, and needn't pit the needs of the one group over another. Trying to ameliorate social ills via increased taxation is generally not a path the city should go down. That sort of thing needs to happen at the national level.

[chimpskibot]

The wealth tax is a terrible idea, but I dont see how it will affect the middle class or make them leave. Where would they go? Theyve bought or rented in this city because its cheap and has a ton of amenities, services, cultural institutions, walkability, etc. The truly wealthy may leave, but they dont make a city or its finances nor do many of them have their primary residencies here. This is all to say that we already have a really high wage tax, but middle/upper-middle class individuals and their families are still moving here to the point developments are being sold out before being built out.

[McBane]

^ That's because 50 years of high taxes and poor schools have hallowed out stable middle class families from the neighborhoods. Now, the City's coffers are more heavily dependent on the ultra rich who have been steadily increasing their presence in Center City over the past 20 years. Will this new tax spur an exodus and further erode the City's tax base?

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I don't think it will pass... I hope not... still, this a COMPLETE waste of time, energy and resources by one of our council members. Imagine how much time she spent on this..... imagine if she spent this amount of time, energy and resources on reworking our tax structure, and proposing a bill that would change the broken tax structure in Philly into one that would actually ATTRACT jobs and businesses and residents.

Or imagine if she spent this amount of time, energy and resources on honing in on solutions to Philly's gun violence problem.

...God these city councilmembers are completely incompetent.

Again, you need to understand what incompetent means- this is not incompetence, its a legislative proposal that you don't agree with. If she got it this far and everyone is talking about it and she has Elizabeth Warren lobbying for it I would argue she is hardly incompetent.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by McBane

But the City's response to the wave of depopulation was continual tax increases. Fair to say that strategy didn't work and there's some 50 years of data showing that correlation.

Taxes have not gone up for 50 years. Just not true. The wage tax was at its highest rate like 30 years ago. Other taxes have also been slowly reduced or eliminated in recent years. Many of the cities that have boomed in the last 20-30 years are major centers for regulation and taxation- not saying that is a recipe for success but I am saying the notion that population loss is driven by tax policy in urban centers is questionable. I'd argue that working and middle class people are much more likely to be affected by tax policy than the wealthy who can afford to the pay the taxes or afford to find ways to dodge the taxes.

[3rd&Brown]

Hopefully y'all are emailing everyone on city council instead of talking about it here.

I emailed Squilla (my district representative) and Domb the minute I read this here yesterday. Squilla actually replied virtually right away and said that he hadn't even heard of the proposal yet but would review as soon as he could, Domb emailed back last night and said it was a terrible idea and he would never support it.

Just put the pressure on quickly.

There are aspects of Gauthier and Gym that I respect. I wouldn't in a million years vote for Brooks. But after this, I will never vote for Gym again, even though I think she has been a good advocate for the schools.

[ok-ez]

it appears the good news is this won't pass but biden's billionaire tax should https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2022/03/26/billionaire-tax-budget-biden/
and the international minimum tax should keep most of them from leaving
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance...m-tax-deal-what-will-it-mean-2021-10-08/

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Taxes have not gone up for 50 years. Just not true. The wage tax was at its highest rate like 30 years ago. Other taxes have also been slowly reduced or eliminated in recent years. Many of the cities that have boomed in the last 20-30 years are major centers for regulation and taxation- not saying that is a recipe for success but I am saying the notion that population loss is driven by tax policy in urban centers is questionable. I'd argue that working and middle class people are much more likely to be affected by tax policy than the wealthy who can afford to the pay the taxes or afford to find ways to dodge the taxes.

The sad truth is that COL, even with the wage tax, is still lower in Philadelphia than most of the surrounding counties. Reason is simple: property taxes are generally lower.


Why is that a major issue? Well Pennsylvania school funding relies on local property tax collection for most of it's funding. Lower property tax = lower per pupil funding. That's why the Levy-Sweeney constitutional amendment was so genius. According to the Lincoln Land Institute, out of the 50 largest cities, Philadelphia has easily one of the lowest commercial tax rates.


One might wonder why again? It certainly hasn't drawn more business into the city vs. neighboring municipalities with higher rates. The sole reason is the "uniformity clause" in the PA constitution only allows a single real estate tax rate on every property, no matter the usage. The amendment would have broke the clause allowing Philly to charge a higher commercial property tax on certain properties, while keeping the residential rate the same. The added new revenue could be used to reduce the wage tax and the BIRT. I will just end with some excerpts I remember reading






Sadly, once Darrell Clarke and co. opposed it, it was dead. Nothing ever came to pass. The pandemic has once again brought these issues to a point, imo, they cannot be ignored.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Really stupid. The 1500 block and 1600 blocks of Sansom should be converted into pedestrian only plazas. There are officially no more garages or loading docks on these two blocks of Sansom, so there's no reason for traffic to drive down them. They should be converted to pedestrian only strips with more outdoor seating.

I agree with the premise, but 1620 is going to have a garage entrance on Sansom.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Justin7

I agree with the premise, but 1620 is going to have a garage entrance on Sansom.

Yep. Good point. I completely forgot 1620 Sansom will have a garage entrance in Sansom. Soooo… the 1500 block should be a pedestrian plaza then haha