Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by Conrad Yablonski

Quite Wrong-that never happened here but in a frozen province far far away.

Thank you.
Either way, the concern for vigilantism is something that should be on the table as incidents of crime increase but reported cases of "we reported it in and gave them solid evidence but nothing came of it" continues to rise. Eventually someone's gonna end up injured and all we'll get from it is a shop closing after the owner is sentenced to 2 years for assault and someone else might be a few fingers short but now he's got a disability cheque AND a happy dealer.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's why I talked about a middle ground.

As soon as someone complains about deteriorating public safety on the streets, people immediately evoke Duterte-style death squads who round up and execute (anyone more or less assumed to be) criminals.

So our binary choice would be only between that and increasing levels of lawlessness, incivility and danger?

Please don't ask me to speculate on what the level of the latter would have to reach for me to start being more sympathetic to the former option. I wouldn't like my answer and neither would a lot of people on here I suspect.

Exactly, and that's no different from Freedom Convoy folks calling Trudeau or Biden a dictator running a red state when obviously they do not know what it is like to be living under the rule of devils such as Putin or Xi.

[Vin]

This City is obviously dysfunctional.

BC government orders City of Vancouver to reverse $5.7 million VPD budget cut
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/vancouver-police-department-budget-cut-provincial-government-appeal


That's what you get for a City that screws up on so many things it touches. I'm still waiting for the viaducts to be demolished or collapse if an earthquake were to strike soon.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Vin

when obviously they do not know what it is like to be living under the rule of devils such as Putin or Xi.

Just like how you obviously have no clue what a third world country is like.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Just like how you obviously have no clue what a third world country is like.

Third World: A place full of people with no hope to better their lives. They are surrounded by unsanitary living conditions and dilapidated homes, and constantly encounter crime and disorderliness where they live. Some are even constantly hungry and need to rely on charitable organizations for survival. Their government leave them to rot and die from all sorts of abuse without enforcing the law. Even the police are afraid to venture into some of these neighbourhoods and criminal activies are tolerated everywhere. Hey, isn't that Vancouver's Downtown Eastside?

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Vin

Third World: A place full of people with no hope to better their lives. They are surrounded by unsanitary living conditions and dilapidated homes, and constantly encounter crime and disorderliness where they live. Some are even constantly hungry and need to rely on charitable organizations for survival. Their government leave them to rot and die from all sorts of abuse without enforcing the law. Even the police are afraid to venture into some of these neighbourhoods and criminal activies are tolerated everywhere. Hey, isn't that Vancouver's Downtown Eastside?

Everything is relative, and the DTES has atrocious living conditions in some buildings, but many of Vancouver's most dilapidated buildings would be considered luxurious in an actual third world country. From CBC's article about the Balmoral:

Among the problems noted in the demolition order are rotting walls, studs and beams; moisture throughout; bad electrical work and poor fire protection.

This quote implies that the building actually has electricity, something 800 million people live without.

As for safety, based on 2011 census data and the VPD's 2021 crime incident statistics, the DTES has a homicide rate of 5.43 per 100,000 people. This is significantly higher than Downtown and West End (2.85) or south-east Van (1.00), but it pales in comparison to actually dangerous countries where the homicide rate may be 6x or 10x higher than the DTES. Homicide is not the be-all and end-all metric for public safety, but I would much more afraid to live in a country, city, or neighbourhood where I have a 1-in-2,000 chance of being murdered as opposed to 1-in-20,000.

All of this is not to say that the DTES doesn't have problems, and that addressing crime, a toxic drug supply, sanitation, poor living conditions, and more, shouldn't be near the top of any mayoral/counsellor candidate's list. But saying the DTES has third world conditions does two things:

1. It scares people from going to the DTES and supporting the businesses that badly need foot traffic and paying customers
2. It minimizes the plight of people in actual third world countries

[jollyburger]

At least they aren't very smart.

Two suspects have been arrested after stealing thousands-of-dollars of merchandise from a Kitsilano store and then trying to flee in a cab.

Vancouver police said a resident who lived near the unnamed Kitsilano store called police at around 4:20 a.m. on Wednesday after being woken up by the sound of glass being smashed. A security alarm could be heard going off near Arbutus and West 4th.

Police said the suspects fled the area and were gone by the time police arrived. An officer, “acting on a hunch,” noticed a cab leaving the area with no lights on and alerted other officers. When the cab was pulled over, police found the two suspects inside with more than $16,000 in stolen goods.

John Erickson, 57, and Scott Robinson, 40, are charged with break-and-enter, as well as theft over $5,000.

Robinson was also wanted on a number of outstanding provincewide warrants.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/kitsilano-store-theft

[Vin]

Vancouver's Chinatown is officially a gone case.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8705839/vancouver-chinatown-graffiti/

[theKB]

In looking at changes that can be made in a short period and maybe because it was spring break with a whack ton more tourists (who knew bringing visitors into downtown core brought life) - visited Seattle again this past weekend and the change was drastic - less disorder on the streets (and again this may have just been a blip) but there was no massive gatherings on third between pike and pine of people clearly with mental health issues/addition problems - the streets were cleaner, more police presence, crews picking up garbage etc.

Interestingly enough the new city attorney put for a program to give 118 repeat offenders special treatment as they accounted for 2400 crimes over the past five years including 1019 thefts, 589 tresspasses, 409 assaults and 101 weapons violations

https://www.q13fox.com/news/seattle-crim...tment-in-effort-to-protect-public-safety

It really goes to show that taking the very small element that causes the majority of the problems off the streets can go a long way and this may be an approach for Vancouver/BC. Again this has zero correlation to what I experienced 3 weeks apart but the city did seem better (again it could just be because tourists had started to return). But it was nice seeing the change. At least Seattle is taking action...

[theKB]

Not to keep lamenting on seattle but again another comparison of when action is taken.

In this coverage of clearing out a camp, they showed an area close by with open drug sales and a stolen goods market, similar to what we have here and once a crack down had started how the area made a drastic change over a short period

https://www.q13fox.com/news/recent-shoot...eattle-encampment-that-always-comes-back

Really shows that working with various agencies, a change can be made in the short term.

[Vin]

You can see the tremendous amount of improvement after law enforcers cracked down on lawlessness in Seattle, and that includes the arrests of the squatters.

What is the City of Vancouver doing for its law-abiding residents here?

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by Vin

You can see the tremendous amount of improvement after law enforcers cracked down on lawlessness in Seattle, and that includes the arrests of the squatters.

What is the City of Vancouver doing for its law-abiding residents here?

Most weren't arrested. They were just moved out of Downtown - and now Belltown as well. Presumably they've moved to some other commercial / residential neighbourhood.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Most weren't arrested. They were just moved out of Downtown - and now Belltown as well. Presumably they've moved to some other commercial / residential neighbourhood.

That's how you achieve "crowd control" for an illegal gathering setting. Arrest a few as a warning, and disperse the others. In this case, the former squatters will either have to agree to staying in subsidized housing or shelter. Win win for all.

In Vancouver, it's still a circus on East Hastings and the surroundings. No one does anything.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by Vin

That's how you achieve "crowd control" for an illegal gathering setting. Arrest a few as a warning, and disperse the others. In this case, the former squatters will either have to agree to staying in subsidized housing or shelter. Win win for all.

In Vancouver, it's still a circus on East Hastings and the surroundings. No one does anything.

and when they do it's sort of a "sport policing" situation.... arrest them, take them to court, release them on a promise to appear.

Someone who's had dozens to hundreds of interactions with the law is not going to be phased by this.

Now we clearly don't have the facilities to start locking up everyone under the mental health act but I'm not sure why the police don't utilize it with severe repeat offenders and those who overdose multiple times.

https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/00_96288_01#section22

(ii)requires care, supervision and control in or through a designated facility to prevent the person's or patient's substantial mental or physical deterioration or for the protection of the person or patient or the protection of others, and

(iii)cannot suitably be admitted as a voluntary patient.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by theKB

and when they do it's sort of a "sport policing" situation.... arrest them, take them to court, release them on a promise to appear.

Someone who's had dozens to hundreds of interactions with the law is not going to be phased by this.

Now we clearly don't have the facilities to start locking up everyone under the mental health act but I'm not sure why the police don't utilize it with severe repeat offenders and those who overdose multiple times.

There are almost 20,000 detentions under the Mental Health Act in BC every year. The 26-year old Coquitlam man who carried out a random attack on a teen exchange student at the weekend was also wanted on a B.C.-wide Mental Health Act warrant at the time of the assault, for breaching a court order that he reside at a treatment centre. The university worker who killed a security guard on the UBC Okanagan campus was arrested under the Mental Health Act. Ridge Meadows RCMP officers had decided to arrest Kyaw Din, who had schizophrenia, under the Mental Health Act in 2019. A taser didn't deploy, and Din died after he was shot twice in the face and once in the chest. A woman who stabbed a Surrey police officer three weeks ago was held under the Mental Heath Act, as well as being charged with aggravated assault.

Many cases are tragic - like the man who stabbed his friend to death, while suffering from undiagnosed schizophrenia. (To be clear - he was not a drug user, and had no previous involvement with the authorities). He's now detained at the Forensic Psychiatric Hospital in Coquitlam pending a hearing with the B.C. Review Board.

In June 2020 the government introduced Bill 22, an amendment to the Mental Health Act that would allow for involuntary care for patients under 19 for up to seven days following an overdose. Not everyone agrees with that approach, including B.C.’s chief coroner, the B.C. Civil Liberties Association and the Union of British Columbia Indian Chiefs.

"In a January 2021 report from B.C.’s Representative for Children & Youth, involuntary stabilization or care was described as potentially traumatizing and punitive. Furthermore, without “a robust suite of voluntary substance use services and supports” available afterwards, the report stated this option would be ineffective."

It's by no means clear that the existing Mental Health Act is legal - there's currently a complex legal case that started in 2016 which winding its way through (and up) the system, sponsored by the Council of Canadians with Disabilities based on the experience of two individuals who experienced forced psychiatric treatment. They filed a claim in BC Supreme Court alleging that the 'deemed consent' aspects of the current laws (that allow involuntary treatment) violate human rights under the Charter.

In the meantime in the City of Vancouver alone "Between 2014 and 2020, Vancouver police arrested an average of 2,900 people per year under the Mental Health Act." There's a new program for people with severe mental health and substance use challenges that has operated in Vancouver for the past year and it has led to fewer hospital visits, police calls and drug dependence among participants. Vancouver Coastal Health has embedded services in two undisclosed city-owned buildings that include psychiatrists, psychologists and medical doctors. So that seems to be positive, but it's expensive, and clearly isn't enough. Police are hoping to add a third mental health response team - Car 87 and Car 88 that currently operate the service can't keep up with the level of demand currently being experienced.

It's reasonable to assume that the impact of Covid 19 on the population who have mental health issues (not habitual or casual drug users, but people with bi-polar or schizophrenic episodes, for example) has in some cases had a negative impact on their behaviour. The world is a more difficult place to negotiate, and services to help them have been disrupted.

If you're interested in why marginalized and drug users are displaying much more violent or irrational behaviour, I recommend 'The Least Of Us' by Sam Quinones, which explains the impact of new easily-manufactured artificial opioids (like fentanyl), methamphetamine and more recently benzodiazepine. Currently the death rate / 100,000 is highest in the Northern Health Region - where meth and benzodiazepine are more commonly found, and where naloxone is usually ineffective to reverse an overdose.

[Migrant_Coconut]

The article says that a grand total of two people were arrested, and both are activists. The homeless are free to go and set up another tent slum somewhere else, just like the ones here.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by theKB

and when they do it's sort of a "sport policing" situation.... arrest them, take them to court, release them on a promise to appear.

Someone who's had dozens to hundreds of interactions with the law is not going to be phased by this.

Now we clearly don't have the facilities to start locking up everyone under the mental health act but I'm not sure why the police don't utilize it with severe repeat offenders and those who overdose multiple times.

https://www.bclaws.gov.bc.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/00_96288_01#section22

It looks like we are trying to appease those with lots of brushes with the law than anyone else. Well, how about:
1. Not releasing those arrested before their next court date
2. Make addicts who get arrested go cold turkey
3. Build more facilities (clean, simple and small modular housing) to lock up more criminals instead of giving free housing/drugs

That would surely sober up lots of street yahoos and criminals in a jiffy.

Originally Posted by Changing City

Most weren't arrested. They were just moved out of Downtown - and now Belltown as well. Presumably they've moved to some other commercial / residential neighbourhood.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The article says that a grand total of two people were arrested, and both are activists. The homeless are free to go and set up another tent slum somewhere else, just like the ones here.

Make it harder and harder for squatters to set up camps and they will eventually stop. People have comfort zones that they refuse to get out of, even though these can be detrimental to their own well-being. Force them out with a constant hostile environment, and they will try to seek out something better. That's how societies with good law and order, as well as follow-up enforcements, can achieve. Not so much here: some folks are allowed to rot and society does not give a dam*.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Make it harder and harder for squatters to set up camps and they will eventually stop. People have comfort zones that they refuse to get out of, even though these can be detrimental to their own well-being. Force them out with a constant hostile environment, and they will try to seek out something better. That's how societies with good law and order, as well as follow-up enforcements, can achieve. Not so much here: some folks are allowed to rot and society does not give a dam*.

Who's paying for that hostile environment? And for how long? The Americans already fought the War on Drugs - the end result was billions thrown down a hole for no effect.

[SpongeG]

I was watching a TV special out of San Francisco, its on youtube but I lost track of it, anyway it was about how bad things have gotten there and what they are trying to do to make it better, but one part of it was this couple who used to be users but still hang out in the tenderloin area were shocked about how back in their day when they were using they had to go and hide out in an alleyway and shoot up otherwise they would get harassed by the police but they said nowadays people just shoot up wherever they want to, right here on the street with everyone around they just do it and they thought that was crazy that they allow it to happen so openly these days.

As for what they were trying to do to make things better wasn't much but people were happy, everyday a cleaning crew cleans up the mess and business owners felt like people were caring about the neighbourhood and gave them a little more faith that things could get better.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Who's paying for that hostile environment? And for how long? The Americans already fought the War on Drugs - the end result was billions thrown down a hole for no effect.

Same money currently used to increase police patrols, free needles & drugs, subsidized housing maintenance, health care & emergency response for over doses, graffiti removals, etc.

Lol the Americans fought the war on drugs? Don't make me laugh. So many zombies loitering around major cities these days that would be the biggest joke coming from you. They may be targeting drug smuggling but they totally fail on the control of what's actually happening on the ground and the hoods.