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  #301  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 5:49 PM
s211 s211 is offline
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
Vancouver did bid for Amazon's HQ2. It's here. It's easy to see what taxes the cities are responsible for. The City of Vancouver commercial tax levy is $4.91 per $1,000 of assessed value, and the total tax payable with all the other taxes added - Provincial schools tax, Translink, Metro Vancouver etc is $9.97 per $1,000 of assessed value. In Toronto it's $12.30 per $1,000. Calgary is $20.61 per $1,000 of assessed value, and has risen for businesses more than in most cities over the past several years.
Again, these mill rates are only half the story. Assessed values are the other half, and without the latter, the former can easily be used to spin falsehoods.
     
     
  #302  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 7:10 PM
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Globe & Mail article reports Adrienne Carr is "seriously considering" a run at mayor.

Vancouver mayoral race becoming even more crowded
FRANCES BULA
VANCOUVER
PUBLISHED 7 HOURS AGO

After the already-crowded field of candidates in Vancouver’s mayoral election grew even larger earlier this week, Adriane Carr, a popular Green Party councillor, is saying she is seriously considering a run because she thinks Mayor Kennedy Stewart is unreliable on climate-change issues.

Ms. Carr said her entry into the mayoral race might be the only way to get the needed six votes on Vancouver’s 11-person council to lower carbon emissions in the city, though she is aware her presence on the ballot could mean vote-splitting on the left between her and Mr. Stewart.

“We’ve been talking to a variety of people about how to make sure we could get six votes,” Ms. Carr said. “We are the strongest party right now, but we can’t move things forward without the necessary votes.”

If she runs, she will join an existing group of five declared mayoral candidates. The latest to join the race was Colleen Hardwick, an independent city councillor, who was acclaimed Sunday as the nominee for a new civic party, TEAM for a Livable Vancouver.

The other candidates are the incumbent mayor, Mr. Stewart; park-board commissioner John Coupar, for the Non-Partisan Association; businessman Ken Sim, with the newly created A Better City; and political consultant Mark Marissen, with the newly created Progress Vancouver....


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/b...mayoral-race-becoming-even-more-crowded/

I would welcome the opportunity not to vote for her.
     
     
  #303  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 7:42 PM
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Originally Posted by s211 View Post
Again, these mill rates are only half the story. Assessed values are the other half, and without the latter, the former can easily be used to spin falsehoods.
Care to share any comparisons of the relative assessed values of office buildings in Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary? I would assume Toronto's values would be close to, or perhaps a little higher than Vancouver's, but I don't know a source to confirm that, and individual market transactions are too random, with too many variables to make direct comparisons. I would expect Calgary's to be quite a bit lower - given a 30%+ vacancy rate - but even if they're half the value of Vancouver, the taxes would be the same, and it would be hard to argue that a market with such depressed values and such high vacancy is somehow a 'strong' market.
     
     
  #304  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2022, 8:00 PM
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Care to share any comparisons of the relative assessed values of office buildings in Vancouver, Toronto and Calgary? I would assume Toronto's values would be close to, or perhaps a little higher than Vancouver's, but I don't know a source to confirm that, and individual market transactions are too random, with too many variables to make direct comparisons. I would expect Calgary's to be quite a bit lower - given a 30%+ vacancy rate - but even if they're half the value of Vancouver, the taxes would be the same, and it would be hard to argue that a market with such depressed values and such high vacancy is somehow a 'strong' market.
I've been out of the assessment game for several years in Canada, but will comment on concepts. Regimes are all quite different, but on the presumption that assessed values are at least near the ballpark of leased fee values, if one region's assessed value is half of another (and let's use simple values psf as the comparison), but has 2x the tax rate, then on an overall basis the tax bills psf for the two regimes would be similar.

That's what I'm trying to get at. The low tax rate regime could thump their chests about how business friendly they are, but when that low rate is applied to 2x the value psf, then all of a sudden the mirage of a tax friendly regime disappears.
     
     
  #305  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2022, 3:40 AM
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Honest question: are there any examples of a city (that isn't either Alpha++ or decaying) which charges $3 per $1,000 mill rates or less? If so, it's worth a shot.
     
     
  #306  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2022, 4:59 AM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
If that's your benchmark, it's ridiculous.
Thanks for the well thought out reply. Lot of meat on the bone on that one
     
     
  #307  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2022, 5:43 AM
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Every time you post there's another example of something you believe, that isn't true. This exchange has so little to do with the Civic Election that I'm not posting another response here, for the sake of all the posters that want to debate the thread topic.

Vancouver City Council can't directly 'make' the development industry respond by building new office space in a timely manner when vacancy rates start falling to historic low percentages, unless they're refusing to allow proposals to be approved, or they're restricting where offices can be built. Neither is true. For the past decade, since the Metro Core study, zoning has changed to increase the amount of space allowed to be built, expanded the places where it can be built, and encouraged rezonings where it's deemed appropriate (in terms of transit connections) to allow higher densities. That has led to more being built, in a range of sized units that cover the potential demand from small to larger floorplate. The economy has been growing too, and the new companies coming in are often locating in those spaces. Even some established businesses are even choosing to move from a suburban location to the Metro Core (like Best Buy moving their Canadian HQ to W 6th).

Vancouver did bid for Amazon's HQ2. It's here. It's easy to see what taxes the cities are responsible for. The City of Vancouver commercial tax levy is $4.91 per $1,000 of assessed value, and the total tax payable with all the other taxes added - Provincial schools tax, Translink, Metro Vancouver etc is $9.97 per $1,000 of assessed value. In Toronto it's $12.30 per $1,000. Calgary is $20.61 per $1,000 of assessed value, and has risen for businesses more than in most cities over the past several years.
Not directly no, but they can provide a favourable climate. And puh-lease, it takes 9 months to get a permit to build a single family house here. But for an office tower; they’re lightning quick? Ya right. talk to any builder of residential homes what it’s like to build a house here as opposed to other municipalities within Metro Vancouver. Ours is the longest. Look it up there’s articles that speak to just that. And yes, it had gotten better in terms of zoning, but if you look back historically, the moves in recent history only brought us back to a point near where we were before some of the questionable moves from previous councils that saw our commercial office district shrink considerably. We’re only now dipping our toe in allowing for SOME larger floor plates, and we’re seeing the success (so far) in terms of projects. Now let’s take another baby step and remove the arbitrary view ones at least around our major transit hubs, and greatly reduce or outright remove the UDP, and let’s see what happens. Then we can truly say that nothing the Cory does affects the pace of development until that day though, I’m sorry, but the city does indeed play a role.

Regarding a bid for H2 my apologies, I meant a REAL bid. Not that weak effort (if one could even call that one). Ottawa also got people to cheer during a hockey game. Should we count that as a “bid” also? Calgary tried an even worse school yard stunt to get Amazon’s attention and was roasted over the coals by local media there. Only 1 serious bidder came from Canada.

Here is a recent article that identifies some of the issues when looking at property taxes. The city looks good in one measure; not so much in others. The provincial government put a freeze on the school tax which drove Vancouver’s rate down, only to have it pop back up when they recently lifted it.
https://www.globenewswire.com/news-relea...d-Assessments-and-Rising-Tax-Burden.html

On a perhaps more relevant front, was pleasantly surprised to see the city actually step up and pledge financial support for the 2026 World Cup bid. Mayor Stewart was openly supportive of the move. Items like try is and his recognition for at least some form or representational voting system in the ENTIRE city makes a couple good moves on his pet as of late. Would be interesting to see where other candidates stand in the issue
     
     
  #308  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2022, 6:09 AM
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I am on my knees PRAYING that Adrienne Carr gives it a run. LOL! please lord please!!!
     
     
  #309  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2022, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by EastVanMark View Post
Thanks for the well thought out reply. Lot of meat on the bone on that one
Why on earth would you compare Vancouver to Toronto or New York and complain that it's not at that level? I have a newsflash for you: it will never be. It's a terrible benchmark of success.

Vancouver might be compared to a similar sized city in North America, or, itself. Use Minneapolis?
     
     
  #310  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2022, 9:08 PM
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Why on earth would you compare Vancouver to Toronto or New York and complain that it's not at that level? I have a newsflash for you: it will never be. It's a terrible benchmark of success.

Vancouver might be compared to a similar sized city in North America, or, itself. Use Minneapolis?
I could swear that back in the 90s when I visited, Toronto was ghastly and bleak when compared to Vancouver: downtown was pretty much a ghost town after work hours, and the lakefront was an industrial/railway yard wasteland. Today it is a different story. They copied our success, like bringing residents back into the city cores as per the very old days, and then add a lot more to its infrastructure, working and play spaces, as well as the protection and enhancement of certain heritage neighbourhoods. My recent visit saw at least 6 free public ice skating rinks in the downtown district alone, versus one in downtown Vancouver. With all these improvements, even more corporate head offices and businesses relocate to Toronto, and is reflected in the healthy take-up rates of Toronto's very well-supplied office market.

Vancouver's lousy policies fail to attract the various kinds of big or even medium-sized businesses into our city, as this town is constantly filled with short-sighted individuals who always think we are "good enough" and "can never be more".

Hence EastVanMArk has every right to compare us vs them (T.O.). Comparing ourselves to places like Minneapolis is what hicks do.

Last edited by Vin; Mar 16, 2022 at 9:21 PM.
     
     
  #311  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2022, 9:25 PM
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Vancouver's lousy policies fail to attract the various kinds of big or even medium-sized businesses into our city, as this town is constantly filled with short-sighted individuals who always think we are "good enough" and "can never be more".

Hence EastVanMArk has every right to compare us vs them (T.O.). Comparing ourselves to places like Minneapolis is what hicks do.
It's apples and oranges. Do you think City Hall is responsible for where RBC has their corporate headquarters?

We are building and filling more office space than ever before.
     
     
  #312  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2022, 3:45 AM
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It's apples and oranges. Do you think City Hall is responsible for where RBC has their corporate headquarters?

We are building and filling more office space than ever before.
Vin is kind of out of touch with reality. Does it matter if that office space is filled by a bunch of small companies, a few medium companies, or one large company?
     
     
  #313  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2022, 8:07 AM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Why on earth would you compare Vancouver to Toronto or New York and complain that it's not at that level? I have a newsflash for you: it will never be. It's a terrible benchmark of success.

Vancouver might be compared to a similar sized city in North America, or, itself. Use Minneapolis?
Newsflash: Toronto dwells within Canada and the statement spoke to the strongest office market in the country; so in other words very much relevant. Also, For the purposes I described, the size of the city is irrelevant Would a more appropriate measure? Seattle perhaps? Because their numbers compare to New York & Toronto favourably.

Last edited by EastVanMark; Mar 17, 2022 at 8:25 AM.
     
     
  #314  
Old Posted Mar 17, 2022, 4:03 PM
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Newsflash: Toronto dwells within Canada and the statement spoke to the strongest office market in the country; so in other words very much relevant. Also, For the purposes I described, the size of the city is irrelevant Would a more appropriate measure? Seattle perhaps? Because their numbers compare to New York & Toronto favourably.
Seattle has twice the population of Vancouver. No doubt they have first class tech innovation with Microsoft and Amazon. Even massive government spending with Boeing. We will never compete with them.

Again, what is your measure of success, and how would it ever be attainable?
     
     
  #315  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2022, 12:09 AM
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Frances Bula @fabulavancouver
COPE park-board commissioner switches over to Vision Vancouver
11:20 AM · Mar 17, 2022·Twitter Web App
https://twitter.com/fabulavancouver/status/1504523078340014081?s=20&t=1daXeM426yP3cdPXkAjN0w
     
     
  #316  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2022, 4:10 PM
EastVanMark EastVanMark is offline
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Seattle has twice the population of Vancouver. No doubt they have first class tech innovation with Microsoft and Amazon. Even massive government spending with Boeing. We will never compete with them.

Again, what is your measure of success, and how would it ever be attainable?
Seattle does not have twice the population of Vancouver. Not even close.
And yes, they do have those things but has anyone really looked at how they got there (especially in the early years) but more importantly; why they stayed and continue to do so today.

I’ve already outlined what success looks like in specific detail. How it is attained? Again as already mentioned; slash the red tape and silly restrictions that hold us back. Now to be fair; we have removed some obstacles but we need more and quickly. The provincial government has actually done a decent job on this front historically, but the city needs to hold up its end of the bargain. Hopefully this election will bring in some new blood or better yet people that have actually owned a business in their lives, who appreciate the need for these initiatives.
     
     
  #317  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2022, 4:29 PM
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Seattle does not have twice the population of Vancouver. Not even close.
And yes, they do have those things but has anyone really looked at how they got there (especially in the early years) but more importantly; why they stayed and continue to do so today.

I’ve already outlined what success looks like in specific detail. How it is attained? Again as already mentioned; slash the red tape and silly restrictions that hold us back. Now to be fair; we have removed some obstacles but we need more and quickly. The provincial government has actually done a decent job on this front historically, but the city needs to hold up its end of the bargain. Hopefully this election will bring in some new blood or better yet people that have actually owned a business in their lives, who appreciate the need for these initiatives.
Metro Van is 2.4M, Metro Seattle is 4M. No sense comparing the cities specifically.

Cut red tape... classic talking point that doesn't mean much in reality.

Yes, we need faster approvals and development. That's mostly a residential issue though. Commercial/Office development doesn't seem to get held up nearly as long.
     
     
  #318  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2022, 5:02 PM
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Housing and Engineering depts are a lot of work through permitting for sure. I feel it's not really the "tape" but the unsynchronized process and over burdened staff.
     
     
  #319  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2022, 5:29 PM
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Metro Van is 2.4M, Metro Seattle is 4M. No sense comparing the cities specifically.
Metro Vancouver is over 2.6M according to the 2021 census. The land area covered in Metro Seattle is also significantly larger than Metro Vancouver (15.2k sq km vs. 2.8k sq km). A better comparison is the lower mainland (i.e MV + FVRD) = 15k sq km (which includes a lot of mountains) and approx. 3.0M people according to the 2021 census. Still not as much as 4M, but not half. Should also point out that King County is nearly twice the size of Metro Vancouver alone, and 2.2M vs 2.6M.
     
     
  #320  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2022, 6:25 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Metro Van is 2.4M, Metro Seattle is 4M. No sense comparing the cities specifically.

Cut red tape... classic talking point that doesn't mean much in reality.

Yes, we need faster approvals and development. That's mostly a residential issue though. Commercial/Office development doesn't seem to get held up nearly as long.
The US tends to do very large statistical areas when they talk about a metro area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_metropolitan_area
     
     
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