Rank your city's sports teams by popularity

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't see what youth sports has to do with "spoiling children". It's more an activity/obligation, albeit hopefully an enjoyable one.

It's for the parents. All of the push for girls' sports actually makes some sense since there are college sports scholarships dangling out there thanks to Title IX, but I couldn't help but think that the parents were simply paying for the college education in gas and dues to these traveling teams when their daughters were 5-17 years old.

I knew a few guys that ended up in MLB or the NFL and they weren't on traveling teams back in the 80s because such a thing hardly existed. We hardly even traveled out of the neighborhood. When my baseball team made the city finals in 7th grade we went about 8 miles away and had no idea where we were.

High school teams didn't travel until the playoffs. Now my high school's football team travels 2-3 times during the regular season in its attempt to remain a nationally ranked team and continue to get the best players from around the city.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

If you're kid excels at a sport and can play at that level you are doing your kid a disservice by not letting them participate.

As we've discovered many times before, you and I just have very fundamentally different outlooks on life and how we go about living it. I think I would be doing my entire family a disservice by having one of my kids enrolled in one of those youth sports traveling clubs that would eat up every weekend of our family's life for significant chunks of the year all for the benefit of one member and at the expense of everyone else in the family. I've seen it happen first-hand in other families and all I can say is HARD PASS!

I don't care if my son has the raw talent to be the next MJ (he absolutely does not, btw), our family will never get involved in that universe of nonsense.

If my son wants to play basketball, he can play basketball in our local neighborhood/park district leagues. those are more than good enough for kids.



But I suppose I'm now dooming my son to a life of not ever playing in the NBA. What an awful, awful parent I am.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I've seen it happen first-hand in other families and all I can say is HARD PASS!

Actually a lot of couples who should just go ahead and separate get super-active in this stuff so that they a)physically avoid their hated spouse and b)party with similar sad parents at the Hilton Garden Inn.

Adding to the profound expense is the dog boarding.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

But ultimately, it's a choice to allow your own kids to do whatever activity it is you allow them to do, no?

Of course it's our choice. But we're fortunate to be financially comfortable and have the time and energy to expose him to different stuff.

Originally Posted by sopas ej

"Youth sports industry" is the key phrase; it's an industry.

And I really think parents "having" to wake up early every Saturday morning to take their kids to whatever activity/activities that they themselves chose to enroll their kids into has become a cultural/vanity thing. I feel like kids today are enrolled in all kinds of activities that kids in my generation were not.

I don't disagree, but there's more to it. I played high school varsity soccer and tennis, and there were kids drinking and smoking after practice. No one played on travel teams. There was barely any conditioning. Nowadays, excepting the rare unicorns with LeBron James-level natural talent, you have no hope of playing varsity sports at a high level absent significant youth training. So if you want your kid to participate in high school sports (at least at a large high school, in a metropolitan environment) you have no option.

But yeah, much of this is driven by parental anxiety and vanity. And it's a business, sometimes borderline scam.

My kid's soccer league is nationally known and produces multiple Division 1 soccer players every year, and even has players in major professional leagues. But they have five levels of talent for each age group, and most of these kids are terrible, with the parents paying 10k+ annually for their privledge of their kid playing. Only the top level has any hope of doing anything beyond high school.

And we basically have two years, until he's 7, to decide whether to continue, bc that's when practice gets serious and real travel begins.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

As we've discovered many times before, you and I just have very fundamentally different outlooks on life and how we go about living it. I think I would be doing my entire family a disservice by having one of my kids enrolled in one of those youth sports traveling clubs that would eat up every weekend of our family's life for significant chunks of the year all for the benefit of one member and at the expense of everyone else in the family. I've seen it happen first-hand in other families and all I can say is HARD PASS!

I don't care if my son has the raw talent to be the next MJ (he absolutely does not, btw), our family will never get involved in that universe of nonsense.

If my son wants to play basketball, he can play basketball in our local neighborhood/park district leagues. those are more than good enough for kids.

But I suppose I'm now dooming him to a life of not ever playing in the NBA. What an awful, awful parent I am.

Not a parent (yet), but I coach different ages of youth basketball on Saturdays. We have different types of players. Some are there only because their parents want them there. Some enjoy basketball, but only as something to do and play casually. Others are more advanced and play in other teams & organizations as well.

As the players get older, the lesser & casual players naturally get weeded out for various reason:
- The program director deciding not to put more time into players who aren't committed (harsh but necessary, since we are a volunteer organization with few coaches and limited time)
- The players themselves just lose interest if they don't love the sport and are getting their butts kicked by better players
- Increased other obligations and activities piling up as children get older

Your children's interest in whatever sport they're in depends on (a) whether they enjoy the sport, (b) whether they have an aptitude for a particular sport, and (c) how much they can improve and progress over the years. In many cases, it will be your children and their athletic ability that dictates whether they want to join these advanced leagues, and not your preconceived decision. Be wary of being too rigid with your decision, because if your child is good enough and wants to progress in the sport, they may resent you for not supporting them enough.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

It's for the parents. All of the push for girls' sports actually makes some sense since there are college sports scholarships dangling out there thanks to Title IX, but I couldn't help but think that the parents were simply paying for the college education in gas and dues to these traveling teams when their daughters were 5-17 years old.

This is another part of the equation. It's Affluenza.

I was fortunate to get into half the Ivy League despite being a deeply unserious student with so-so grades. I was saved by near-perfect SATs. I didn't even think much about extracurriculars.

Nowadays, I wouldn't even bother applying to these same schools. Elite school applications have quintupled. 25% of applications aren't even from the U.S. I'd have no chance. Kids today need a glistening resume for competitive college admissions. Sports (and music, and coding, and art) are perceived as vehicles to success. Tuition in elite Manhattan private schools now tops 60k, and admission to the best is <5%. There are parents paying the world's best fencers, or squash players, to fly into NY (or wherever) to personally train their kids. John McEnroe has one-on-one tennis lessons at his new facility.

Of course no one has to ride this train of insanity, and there are probably good reasons to tune all this parental anxiety out. Just let kids be kids. If they have natural talents/interests, they'll let you know. 90% of parents are probably wasting their time and money, and driving their kids crazy.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I have co-workers who "complain" about how they had to take their kids to fill-in-the-blank youth sports thing(s) or whatever, and I wanna say "well you don't HAVE to take them to do these things".

we have neighbors down the street like that who we've actually started socializing less with now because they have both of their kids (ages 6 and 3, mind you) enrolled in multiple sports and other activities that seemingly eat up all of their free-time.

we have seen them a couple times recently at neighborhood gatherings and both times they were complaining (bragging) about all of the activities they have their two kids enrolled in and how difficult it is with the scheduling/logistics of it all. in my head i was just like "you CHOSE to do all of that shit all by yourselves, dumbasses. you've got no one else to blame."


i'm glad my wife and i are on the same page about 1 activity at a time for our kids. my son is in a neighborhood basketball league (1 game/week) and my daughter takes a dance class once a week over at a neighborhood dance studio.

he will likely never play in the NBA and she will likely never dance for the Paris Opera Ballet.

and we're ok with that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

The thing is, you don't go from playing at the local community center to traveling teams overnight, you build up to that. If you're kid excels at a sport and can play at that level you are doing your kid a disservice by not letting them participate. I traveled for sports when I was a kid, but not your typical Baseball/Soccer - I was very involved in Wrestling/Judo/jiu jitsu (when Jiu Jitsu wasn't very popular in the late '90s). We traveled quite a bit, though for wrestling it was mainly South Jersey (which is ground zero for Wrestling). I ended up being a nationally ranked in U17 Judo, all because my parents committed to it with me.

I generally agree.

95% of kids start out ''small" just dinking around at whatever it is they're doing, and then they get better at it and more and more passionate about it.

It slowly creeps up on you.

We were there a few years ago to a middling-modest agree. Our travels weren't that far away (within a 1000 km radius of our home) and weren't every weekend, but yes we had practices multiple days a week (5-6) and we did travel out of town with the "crowd" several times a year.

It monopolized a large part of our lives (and money) for 10-12 years.

My kids are all now completely out of all that and aren't even coaching as young adults.

My overall sentiment?

It was extremely demanding but we had a hell of a time. Some of my best dad memories and moments will always be from that era of our lives.
(We were actually just taking about some of them last night, and I admit to sometimes even being a bit nostalgic that it's all over.)

My wife and kids totally agree with me BTW.

So not many regrets even though I realize it's not for everyone.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by dchan

In many cases, it will be your children and their athletic ability that dictates whether they want to join these advanced leagues, and not your preconceived decision. Be wary of being too rigid with your decision, because if your child is good enough and wants to progress in the sport, they may resent you for not supporting them enough.

i'm more than ok living with that.

i'm not spending tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dollars and giving up every weekend for years on end just because my son is really good at baseball and wants to be on a traveling club team.

i simply won't ever make that sacrifice. i've seen what it can do to the other family members. HARD PASS!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dchan

Not a parent (yet), but I coach different ages of youth basketball on Saturdays. We have different types of players. Some are there only because their parents want them there. Some enjoy basketball, but only as something to do and play casually. Others are more advanced and play in other teams & organizations as well.

As the players get older, the lesser & casual players naturally get weeded out for various reason:
- The program director deciding not to put more time into players who aren't committed (harsh but necessary, since we are a volunteer organization with few coaches and limited time)
- The players themselves just lose interest if they don't love the sport and are getting their butts kicked by better players
- Increased other obligations and activities piling up as children get older

Your children's interest in whatever sport they're in depends on (a) whether they enjoy the sport, (b) whether they have an aptitude for a particular sport, and (c) how much they can improve and progress over the years. In many cases, it will be your children and their athletic ability that dictates whether they want to join these advanced leagues, and not your preconceived decision. Be wary of being too rigid with your decision, because if your child is good enough and wants to progress in the sport, they may resent you for not supporting them enough.

You made me think of something.

As kids get older it's more and more difficult for them to continue partaking in something that's only recreational, as there are fewer and fewer kids interested in that (most who partake for a long time eventually want to compete) and it gets less satisfying and motivating.

Not saying there aren't any but recreational sports or activities level off a lot as kids enter their early teens.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

he will likely never play in the NBA and she will likely never dance for the Paris Opera Ballet.

and we're ok with that.

If that is your benchmark for whether your kids should participate in youth sports at a high level, then yes, keep them away, as they'll disappoint you.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Of course it's our choice. But we're fortunate to be financially comfortable and have the time and energy to expose him to different stuff.

I don't disagree, but there's more to it. I played high school varsity soccer and tennis, and there were kids drinking and smoking after practice. No one played on travel teams. There was barely any conditioning. Nowadays, excepting the rare unicorns with LeBron James-level natural talent, you have no hope of playing varsity sports at a high level absent significant youth training. So if you want your kid to participate in high school sports (at least at a large high school, in a metropolitan environment) you have no option.

But yeah, much of this is driven by parental anxiety and vanity. And it's a business, sometimes borderline scam.

My kid's soccer league is nationally known and produces multiple Division 1 soccer players every year, and even has players in major professional leagues. But they have five levels of talent for each age group, and most of these kids are terrible, with the parents paying 10k+ annually for their privledge of their kid playing. Only the top level has any hope of doing anything beyond high school.

And we basically have two years, until he's 7, to decide whether to continue, bc that's when practice gets serious and real travel begins.

We have a bit of a schism with developing child athletes.

On the one hand, there is indeed a whole industry now bent on developing elite athletes, or at least give parents and young athletes the illusory hope that these expensive programs can develop your children into elite athletes with enough $$$.

On the other hand, information has never been more readily available. As a high schooler trying to learn how to play low-post basketball, I had a few inexpensive resources. One was my older brother, who played up to JV HS basketball and didn't play a big man position. Another was the local library and dial-up internet (with no video). So I had to learn how to seal and drop-step using step-by-step (non-pictorial) instructions that mostly confused me.

So with high-speed internet, videos, and training apps available now, it has never been easier to train by yourself or with a group of other players at low or no cost. It all comes down to how dedicated the players and their parents are, since it will be up to them to use these resources to train. It takes time and commitment to do the training yourself.

However, individual training only does so much for team sports. The athletes need to play with teammates and in serious games to improve. For myself, the training is a way to practice moves and work on my skills. The games are a lab to put my training into practice. But more importantly, it allows me to play in a setting that cannot be replicated by mere individual skills and moves training.

Therefore, young athletes also need to join teams in order to develop their in-game skills and their minds.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Youth soccer in the U.S. is overwhelmingly a middle class and upper class activity. Poor kids don't play it, despite its cheapness. Poor Americans don't follow the MLS or even know soccer exists overseas. It's a yuppie hobby.

What's more, today's U.S. yuppie soccer fans like to pretend they're working class English. This started around 2005 when suddenly a soccer field became a pitch. I remember back in the 80s and 90s when there were a handful of wannabe English-style mods and skinheads and punks in every U.S. city who hovered around local all-ages music clubs. They liked to act poor despite being from okay backgrounds. They read books on the English working class and were ready to tell a willing ear all about it, like a vegan.

My observation is that poor kids are playing less and less sports in general, be they organized or pick-up games near where they live.

Even "poor" kids typically have access to electronic devices, video games, etc. these days, and that's what occupies most of their leisure time.

Only a minority of them are probably going out into their neighbourhood to shoot some hoops or kick a ball around any more.

(Obviously this at least partly explains the spike in obesity rates.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

If that is your benchmark for whether your kids should participate in youth sports at a high level, then yes, keep them away, as they'll disappoint you.

I agree, it's a dumb decision to benchmark off of whether your child will become the top 0.0001% of athletes. If a child athlete becomes too good for the local YMCA youth programs, he/she will naturally want to see exactly how good he/she is. Intentionally pre-restricting your child from even joining a more advanced team or program won't work in the long run if he/she is truly interested in that sport.

I'm not saying that you should have your child join every single advanced program out there. Pick and choose what's available and make smart decisions. Also, remember that your child's lifelong friends may be his/her teammates or program-mates from these advanced programs.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My observation is that poor kids are playing less and less sports in general, be they organized or pick-up games near where they live.

I've also noticed more of a recent demographic/socioeconomic sports sorting.

White upper middle class Americans still love football, but their kids no longer play it (besides no contact flag football). I don't know one parent who has their kids playing tackle football.

I've seen the youth tackle football camps, and travel teams, and they're entirely African American kids. Black parents still participate, apparently. There will probably be almost no white NFL players in 20 years.

Growing up, in the 1990's, football was still the elite boys sport, and the best athletes, regardless of race or socioeconomics, played football. Never heard of a kid who wasn't allowed to play football, and I grew up in a very white, upper income area.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My observation is that poor kids are playing less and less sports in general, be they organized or pick-up games near where they live.

one of the things that made me instantly fall in love with our neighborhood when we were house hunting several years ago - we took a little walk around the area after looking at a property on a lovely fall saturday afternoon and we stumbled across a group of 15 or so 10 year old boys playing a pick-up game of touch football on the school field and there wasn't a single adult around!!! they were doing it ALL by themselves. no coaches. no officials. no screaming idiot parents. no one setting up a table of gatorade and orange slices. none of it. just kids being kids and having fun all by themselves!

it really warmed my heart to see that, and i said to myself at the time, "YES! this is EXACTLY where i want to raise my family". that's the true essence of youth sports in my mind: having fun with your friends without stupid adults fucking it all up. it reminded me of my own childhood and all of those saturday afternoons of playing pick-up basketball with my friends at our neighborhood playground without any adults ruining it.


so we ended up buying that home.

largely because of a group of kids playing a pick-up game of touch football.

one of the best decisions i've ever made!

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by dchan

I agree, it's a dumb decision to benchmark off of whether your child will become the top 0.0001% of athletes. If a child athlete becomes too good for the local YMCA youth programs, he/she will naturally want to see exactly how good he/she is. Intentionally pre-restricting your child from even joining a more advanced team or program won't work in the long run if he/she is truly interested in that sport.

I'm not saying that you should have your child join every single advanced program out there. Pick and choose what's available and make smart decisions. Also, remember that your child's lifelong friends may be his/her teammates or program-mates from these advanced programs.

I agree. My kids (Boy ~4yo and Girl 1yo) are too young for any sort of organized sports, but when they are old enough, the plan is see what they enjoy. Let them participate where they want to, and if they don't show interest in sports, that's fine too. Find out what they enjoy.

As you stated, many of my friends in adulthood are from youth sports / HS sports - while you may not attend the same school, you know the other kids from playing on team sports with them. It's a great circle.

Here in Minnesota, Hockey is king, and my nephew plays at a fairly high level, and almost every lake in the area has kids playing pond hockey every night. It's great, the parents are great, and the coaches are great from the exposure i've had in my short time living here.

[dchan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You made me think of something.

As kids get older it's more and more difficult for them to continue partaking in something that's only recreational, as there are fewer and fewer kids interested in that (most who partake for a long time eventually want to compete) and it gets less satisfying and motivating.

Not saying there aren't any but recreational sports or activities level off a lot as kids enter their early teens.

The way I see it, if you're truly interested in sports, you're not interested in playing it purely in a "for fun only" recreational level. You're either into a sport or you're not.

For example, I was working on my basketball skills last spring at a local park. I saw a few high school kids go to the basket after school and proceed to just lie down on the ground and text on their phones. As their friends showed up, that's when they finally decided to shoot around. And by shoot around, I mean just mostly f*cking around and joking with each other while occasionally putting up a shot. Then they played pickup games which were mostly pretty sad. I saw that these kids mostly used basketball as an activity to hang around, and they could have easily hung out doing essentially the same thing in any other outdoor setting or at the local mall or bubble tea shop.

They happened to choose basketball as their hang-outactivity because they kinda liked it, and it was readily available for them to play (just need a ball and a local bball court).

[RowanGrad]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Yeah, I agree with that. I think the prominence of MLB has declined because the fan base skews older. But I think it's still number one because of its crossover appeal, especially in markets with older baseball franchises. It also has far more games which gives more people a chance to attend games. In cities with younger teams and a strong football franchise I could see the NFL team being worth more (Miami, for example).

Honestly, if you had a vote about whether to keep the baseball or football team, I think baseball would win easily:

• New York
• Detroit
• Boston
• Chicago
• Los Angeles
• Atlanta
• Cincinnati
• Cleveland
• Houston

I think the football team would win the vote in these cities:

• Seattle
• Minneapolis
• Milwaukee/Green Bay
• Denver
• Dallas
• Washington
• Pittsburgh
• KC

These seem like they'd be too close to call:

• Tampa Bay
• San Francisco
• Baltimore
  
• Philadelphia

I've lived in the Philly metro my whole life. The Eagles beat the Phillies and it's not even a competition. Eagles are pretty equally popular among all ages and the major race demos in the area (Black & White). Phillies lag behind significantly with the younger generations and black people.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by dchan

The way I see it, if you're truly interested in sports, you're not interested in playing it purely in a "for fun only" recreational level. You're either into a sport or you're not.

This is my personal experience as well, especially as a teenager. I took Wrestling/Judo/Jiu Jitsu VERY seriously, but didn't really have any interest in playing other sports. Of course i'd dick around at practice and warm up playing basketball or whatever.

It's the same as a 38 year old, I don't play many sports, but the sports I play, I take seriously and want to be the best version of myself that I can be.