HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West


Reply

Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #3601  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2022, 2:41 PM
delts145's Avatar
delts145 delts145 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Downtown Los Angeles
Posts: 20,299
Poodledoodledude, How is the River's Edge coming along?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3602  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2022, 2:56 AM
poodledoodledude's Avatar
poodledoodledude poodledoodledude is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
Poodledoodledude, How is the River's Edge coming along?
So far so good: still piles of dirt but at least it’s moving along.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3603  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2022, 4:11 PM
delts145's Avatar
delts145 delts145 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Downtown Los Angeles
Posts: 20,299
Good to hear. That is probably one of the best development opportunities in the Valley. So much potential! I'm also excited about SALT's project at the Point.

I see where plans to create development islands on Utah Lake is still very much a reality and moving forward. This latest round does paint a different picture for me than what I thought was proposed earlier. I've long been an advocate
for dredging all of that harmful sediment and deepening the Lake. Of course, probably like most, I would want details of exactly what type of development is going to be proposed on those islands.


Plans to build islands in Utah Lake as part of restoration project move forward



By Eleana Sheriff @ https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-...ward?_amp=true

UTAH COUNTY, Utah — Plans to build islands as part of the Utah Lake Restoration Project are moving forward. The US Army Corps of Engineers publicly released the permit application and now starts a lengthy review process.

The president of Lake Restoration Solutions says some people are misunderstanding their purpose.

“This is a beautiful beach, we’ve actually done a lot of work here to remove the invasive phragmites,” said Jon Benson, President, Lake Restoration Solutions.

Benson has been working on this project for the past 4 years.

“It’s my dream job to be a part of restoring Utah lake, this is something we can leave behind for our kids and our grandkids to enjoy,” said Benson.

He says the project aims to fully restore the lake’s ecosystem.

“The crux of the plan is to dredge the lake-bed, which is contaminated with nutrient-loaded sediments that have been there over the course of many decades from neglect and abuse that the lake has suffered,” said Benson.

The dredged material will be placed in newly formed containment areas or islands and there will be about 36 of them.

A map with the permit shows what they envision it will look like. There could be development, and the map shows some roads.

“And then we can use those islands for wildlife refuge, for recreation, which is a great public amenity, and for community islands to pay for the project,” said Benson.

But those community islands don’t float everyone’s boat. Conserve Utah Valley argues dredging the lake and building these islands will alter the chemistry of the lake. It’s one of several examples of why they oppose this project.

“I think people have misunderstood the purpose of this project; they think this is about building islands and communities on the lake, that’s really not our purpose, our purpose is to rebuild the lake and make it a resource again,” said Benson.

It could take some time for the US Army Corps of Engineers to give the thumbs up or thumbs down to the project.

“I wouldn’t say that stands in the way, I’d say that enables the project, if it’s a good project which we believe it is of course, but we need to prove that to the regulators to the public through this process, and so that’s our hurdle
but that’s a good thing,” said Benson.

On Monday, February 7, there will be a rally held by Conserve Utah Lake on the Capitol steps at 5pm. Supporters say this will be to support Utah Lake during the legislative session.





Read - Bills unveiled to deal with Utah Lake restoration and any future islands - https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-...future-islands


.

Last edited by delts145; Feb 5, 2022 at 4:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3604  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2022, 4:21 PM
delts145's Avatar
delts145 delts145 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Downtown Los Angeles
Posts: 20,299
The islands plan for Utah Lake - Deseret News - https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/10...ulation-growth

Quote:
Utah Lake’s periodic algal blooms, its problem with excess nutrients and phragmites, as well as its shallow depth are among the reasons behind an ambitious commercial/conservation proposal to take ownership of the lake bed from the state of Utah and set about on a $2.2 billion dredging effort to deepen the lake on average by 7 feet.

The Utah Lake Restoration project contemplates removing nearly 1 billion cubic yards of material from the bottom of the lake. Such an effort, according to the proposal, would require 60 dredgers working 20 hours a day for six days over eight years.
Vineyard city officials walk on Jake Holdaway’s property on Utah Lake in Vineyard on Thursday, Oct. 7, 2021. Laura Seitz, Deseret News

.

Last edited by delts145; Feb 5, 2022 at 5:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3605  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2022, 8:27 AM
Paniolo Man's Avatar
Paniolo Man Paniolo Man is online now
Lahaina Strong
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Murray, Utah.
Posts: 819
I honestly believe that this is a terrible plan that will cause untold ecological harm. DNR FFSL has been working on multiple projects to restore habitat in and around the lake with great success. I'm a senior in Natural Resources at USU and have yet to hear a single one of my ecology/watersheds professors say this is a good idea, most have said it's an awful idea.

There are better development opportunities in Utah Valley. I hate NIMBY's as much as anyone but this plan is pure lunacy. Restoring the lake will take a lot of work, but this project takes it in the wrong direction.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3606  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2022, 3:46 PM
delts145's Avatar
delts145 delts145 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Downtown Los Angeles
Posts: 20,299
I'm not saying you're wrong. Seriously, not at all. However, if the island development is multi-use parks/recreational, geared toward the community, it provides a means for the State to recoup the billions that it's going to cost to dredge/manage the nutrient toxic sediment that has accumulated over the past 150-plus years and now compromises all efforts to rid it of the serious algae and other problems that plague the Lake. Not to mention the recreational opportunities the islands would provide the community as a whole if developed correctly. Getting rid of the Carp and controlling the noxious weeds is but a fraction of what needs to be done. Sure, we can mandate strong controls moving forward on Agri wastes, but the damage of the past is already done. Whether caused by Agriculture or Geneva etc. there must be a cleanup. Please, give us a sound scientifically proven reason on how the Lake's shallow and toxic condition can be remedied without dredging and remediating its toxic bottom, and at the same time come up with the billions that it's going to cost.

There are a few who claim that the Lake doesn't need to be dredged. I am definitely on the side of those who would like to see the Lake dredged and deepened back to its original pristine beauty. If it can be accomplished and paid for without island development great! Otherwise, I first want to see what shared opportunities those islands would afford the CSA Metro population. Of course, we don't want to see islands of paved over mid-rise apartments. If indeed this is just another land grab by greedy developers, then a resounding NO to the islands. Again, first, we need to see what is proposed as development on those islands.

Last edited by delts145; Feb 6, 2022 at 4:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3607  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2022, 5:04 PM
mattreedah mattreedah is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 251
I’m torn on this. On the one hand, the argument from the BYU professor and others that Utah lake is a treasure and we just need to continue on our current reclamation path is a certifiably insane position, but on the other hand I have zero confidence that this new plan is going to work and believe it will likely be a generational disaster.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3608  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2022, 3:31 PM
Reeder113's Avatar
Reeder113 Reeder113 is offline
Eschew Obfuscation
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 493
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattreedah View Post
I’m torn on this. On the one hand, the argument from the BYU professor and others that Utah lake is a treasure and we just need to continue on our current reclamation path is a certifiably insane position, but on the other hand I have zero confidence that this new plan is going to work and believe it will likely be a generational disaster.
As someone who lives very near Utah Lake, I'm of the opinion that SOMETHING has to be done. I don't know what that "thing" is, but the lake and many of it's shores are pretty disgusting. It would be nice to have it be NOT that way.

A very informed opinion.....I know.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3609  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2022, 7:07 PM
bob rulz bob rulz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SL,UT
Posts: 1,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
Of course, we don't want to see islands of paved over mid-rise apartments. If indeed this is just another land grab by greedy developers, then a resounding NO to the islands. Again, first, we need to see what is proposed as development on those islands.
Let's be honest, does anybody realistically expect it will be anything other than that?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3610  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2022, 11:14 PM
i-215's Avatar
i-215 i-215 is offline
Exit 298
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Inland Empire (CA)
Posts: 3,482
All I know is, when I lived in Provo (from '06 until '18), I really tried to enjoy the waterfront. And it's horrible. The worst lake I've ever been to (including Salton Sea!)

I'd love to see the state spend $3+ billion dollars to make the lake better for everyone (ecology, wildlife, tourism, etc.) It's like seeing a trillion-dollar asset in the heart of a beautiful region totally go to waste.

But yeah, this particular plan looks stupid. I don't want a bunch of muddy islands in the middle of the lake. I'm okay with one bridge across it (maybe, if it's done correctly; but certainly not a freaking network!)

Anyone remember the time another developer tried to build a bridge — only to find out his "investors" were scamming him?

The private sector isn't going to fix Utah Lake's problems. The legislature (or federal government) is going to have to write a big check.
__________________
I've stopped caring. Good luck, America
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3611  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2022, 4:53 PM
Wasatch Wasteland's Avatar
Wasatch Wasteland Wasatch Wasteland is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 312
Link to the letter with credentials: https://conserveutahvalley.org/more-...for-utah-lake/
Link to the project proposal, very much reads like propaganda haha... https://ffsl.utah.gov/wp-content/upl...d-011718-1.pdf

Here is the letter that a few hundred local experts, scientists, and natural resource managers recently submitted to the State Legislature in regards to the lake development.

"December 22, 2021

To whom it may concern,

As independent scientists, engineers, natural resource managers, recreation managers, and environmental lawyers, we feel compelled to raise a voice of warning about a proposal that could severely damage Utah Lake.

Utah Lake is the largest freshwater lake in Utah and a keystone ecosystem in western North America. The lake creates billions of dollars of value by providing world-class recreational opportunities, water rights, enhanced property values, pollution removal, local precipitation, and habitat for 50 million birds, fish, and other wildlife. Utah Lake has great historical and cultural significance as the homeland of the Timpanogos Nation and the source of food that saved the Mormon Pioneers during crop failures in 1854 and 1855. Decades of local, state, and federal restoration efforts within and around Utah Lake have resulted in ecological recovery, including declining algal blooms, removal of invasive species, recovery of the endangered June Sucker fish (downlisted in 2021), healthy sediments, and establishment of senior water rights protecting the lake level despite the ongoing megadrought.

In 2018, the Utah Lake Amendments (HB 272) weakened constitutional protection for Utah Lake, opening the lakebed to possible development. Since then, a company called Lake Restoration Solutions (LRS) has been seeking support for a proposal to build 20,000 acres of artificial islands on Utah Lake (1/5th of the lake’s surface). Here is the project website and proposal. LRS claims their project will provide “comprehensive restoration” of the lake ecosystem at no cost to the people of Utah, referencing $6.4 billion in undisclosed investments and connections with artificial islands built in Dubai. In 2021, LRS requested and received $10 million in loan guarantees from the Utah Legislature. In August of 2021, they requested $893 million in federal loans through the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Water Infrastructure Finance and Innovation Act (WIFIA) program, but they were not invited to submit a proposal.

As a group of experts, we have serious concerns about the viability of the LRS proposal, including:

Intentional disregard of available science about the lake’s history, status, and trajectory: LRS falsely claims that Utah Lake used to be deep and clear, that waves and evaporation are damaging, that sediment is heavily polluted, that algal blooms are worsening, and that the lake is deteriorating. These claims contradict virtually all scientific evidence, including the state’s ongoing Utah Lake Water Quality Study, which has been presented at events attended by LRS.
Departure from the principles and methods of ecological restoration: LRS proposes to dredge the entire lakebed, create artificial islands to house 500,000 people, split the lake into dozens of small and deep impoundments, kill all 10 million fish with rotenone, and then use mechanical water circulators to prevent thermal stratification and dead zones. These efforts do not align with restoration best practices and are likely to reverse the lake’s recovery.
Unprecedented size and scope: LRS claims that similar projects have been successfully completed elsewhere. In fact, the proposed islands would be 8-times larger than the world’s biggest dredged island (Kansai Airport), and the dredging would be 370-times larger than the largest freshwater dredging project ever completed (Hudson River Cleanup).
Inadequate expertise: Large restoration projects in sensitive ecological areas typically involve teams of researchers, engineers, legal experts, local stakeholders, and government oversight. On the ecological side, LRS has no Ph.D. scientists on their team. On the engineering and legal sides, no project of this scope has been completed anywhere in the world.
False claims of endorsement and permitting: To reassure local and state leaders, LRS has claimed to have endorsement, permitting, or financing from the EPA, Army Corps of Engineers, FFSL, Utah Governor’s Office, Utah Legislature, and the Utah Lake Commission. We have heard from most of these entities, none of which have endorsed the project.
Flawed model: LRS’ chief design director Robert Scott designed the failed “Palm Deira” in Dubai, which appears to be the inspiration for this project. Even with nearly unlimited money from the Sheikh of Dubai, the island developer Nakheel incurred tens of billions of dollars in debt, only completing 1 of 4 planned archipelagos. Even the partial construction of those islands created massive ecological damage including creation of algal blooms, degradation of water quality, erosion of coastlines, and asphyxiation of sea life. The proposed Utah Lake islands would be 14-times larger than the only completed island project in Dubai (Palm Jumeirah).
Legal and permitting barriers: The LRS proposal depends on the largest privatization of sovereign state land in Utah history. While the 2018 Utah Lake Amendments make this theoretically possible, the transfer would likely result in judicial challenges based on the public trust doctrine. Utah courts have policed this doctrine strictly, including a 2019 clarification by the Utah Supreme Court (USAC v. VR Acquisitions). At the federal level, this project would be the largest destruction of lake and wetland habitat in modern U.S. history. The islands would cover 1/5th of the lake area, and the dredging to build them would impact the entire lake and surrounding shoreline (at least 150 square miles). The Environmental Impact Statement would likely take more than a decade before being rejected given the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act, Clean Water Act, and the Rivers and Harbors Appropriation Act.
Shifting liability: The LRS proposal imposes enormous economic and environmental risk on the citizens of Utah while providing no opportunity for reward. Project failure during design or permitting would leave the state with loan guarantees and reduced credibility regarding management of sovereign state lands. Project failure during construction or development would leave the people of Utah with a multi-billion-dollar cleanup and decades of lost restoration and recreation potential. Even the unlikely prospect of project completion would create a permanently diminished lake stripped of the natural characteristics that have sustained its ongoing recovery.
We urge local, state, and federal leaders to oppose this project and make whatever changes are necessary to prevent similar projects in the future. The 2018 Utah Lake Amendments and continued state support of this project damage Utah’s credibility and amplify LRS’ efforts to spread misinformation about the status and recovery of Utah Lake. Their claims have influenced public perception and shaped the political debate over Utah Lake, undermining legitimate restoration and education efforts.

In this time of dramatic change, we need evidence-based management and legislation to protect this unique, beautiful, and dynamic lake. Utah Lake has sustained our predecessors and ancestors for thousands of years. It is now our opportunity and responsibility to sustain Utah Lake for future generations.

Sincerely,
The Undersigned"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3612  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2022, 5:12 PM
delts145's Avatar
delts145 delts145 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Downtown Los Angeles
Posts: 20,299
Thanks Wasatch for that post. That clears up a lot of questions I had. It would appear that the State should stay far away from anything to do with this group.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3613  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2022, 5:13 PM
Wasatch Wasteland's Avatar
Wasatch Wasteland Wasatch Wasteland is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
There are a few who claim that the Lake doesn't need to be dredged. I am definitely on the side of those who would like to see the Lake dredged and deepened back to its original pristine beauty.
This is a fundamentally wrong, and common, misconception of Utah lake. It never was a deep, clear, lake.

Side note: this project is 370 times larger than the larges freshwater dredging project in human history, (hudson river project) and 8 times larger than any saltwater dredging project in human history. (kansai Osaka international airport).

It is also being designed and funded by the same group the created the failed Palm Jumeirah and other island dredging projects off the coast of Dubai.

This project is riddled with false information, incredibly shady funding, and is creating a false narrative of what is actually going on with the lake.

This project, if it were to go through, would be an unmitigated generational ecological disaster on an unprecedented scale.

"Lake Restoration Solutions" my ass. Pure propaganda.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3614  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2022, 5:15 PM
Wasatch Wasteland's Avatar
Wasatch Wasteland Wasatch Wasteland is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by delts145 View Post
Thanks Wasatch for that post. That clears up a lot of questions I had. It would appear that the State should stay far away from anything to do with this group.
I just hope the State can see through their charade!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3615  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2022, 8:05 PM
Orlando's Avatar
Orlando Orlando is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Salt Lake City, UT
Posts: 4,122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland View Post
This is a fundamentally wrong, and common, misconception of Utah lake. It never was a deep, clear, lake.

Side note: this project is 370 times larger than the larges freshwater dredging project in human history, (hudson river project) and 8 times larger than any saltwater dredging project in human history. (kansai Osaka international airport).

It is also being designed and funded by the same group the created the failed Palm Jumeirah and other island dredging projects off the coast of Dubai.

This project is riddled with false information, incredibly shady funding, and is creating a false narrative of what is actually going on with the lake.

This project, if it were to go through, would be an unmitigated generational ecological disaster on an unprecedented scale.

"Lake Restoration Solutions" my ass. Pure propaganda.
Have these projects failed?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3616  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2022, 8:27 PM
Wasatch Wasteland's Avatar
Wasatch Wasteland Wasatch Wasteland is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
Have these projects failed?
Only 1 of 4 palms built out, 1 palm partially built/abandoned, hundreds of smaller islands built but never developed. Incurred tens of billions of dollars in debt (even with unlimited funding from the Sheikh of Dubai), massive ecological degradation/destruction of the Dubai coastal ecosystem, and the artificial islands are sinking half an inch a year.

Also, a fraction of the size of what is being proposed on Utah Lake.

If Dubai of all places can't make it successful, I can't imagine Utah County can...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3617  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 12:07 AM
EPdesign EPdesign is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 864
This sounds like the “Monorail,” scheme in the Simpson’s Show. They see an opportunity and they are going for it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3618  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 12:27 AM
Deek1978's Avatar
Deek1978 Deek1978 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Spanish Fork, UT
Posts: 183
A quick Google search and browse of Google Earth shows that there were only 3 palms to be built, two of them were. The 3rd was started but abandoned because of slow development on the second palm. The slowing came because of a world wide recession. The Earth Islands were also finished, and they are currently under development. This has not gone as fast as Dubai had hoped, but they are not abandoned.

I couldn't find any information about the islands sinking. I did find that they are studying the ecological impact, but claims that it has destroyed the eco system are are claims only at this point.

I'm not arguing in favor or against creating the islands. Much more information is needed. It just seems like people are letting their preconceived bias make their minds up before studying the issue. Let's use this proposal as a starting point to have a much deeper conversation.
__________________
Why is everybody always picking on me?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3619  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 4:33 AM
Ironweed Ironweed is offline
Ironweed
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deek1978 View Post
A quick Google search and browse of Google Earth shows that there were only 3 palms to be built, two of them were. The 3rd was started but abandoned because of slow development on the second palm. The slowing came because of a world wide recession. The Earth Islands were also finished, and they are currently under development. This has not gone as fast as Dubai had hoped, but they are not abandoned.

I couldn't find any information about the islands sinking. I did find that they are studying the ecological impact, but claims that it has destroyed the eco system are are claims only at this point.

I'm not arguing in favor or against creating the islands. Much more information is needed. It just seems like people are letting their preconceived bias make their minds up before studying the issue. Let's use this proposal as a starting point to have a much deeper conversation.
I am certainly not a proponent of building islands and development in the middle of Utah Lake, either. From a common sense point, it could be a geological time bomb. A major earthquake in the area could cause severe liquefaction causing all kinds of destruction. This can be said of any development in the valley as well.

The lake has been a dumping ground, neglected for far too long. It received raw sewage up until 1960. Those who have said it was never a clear lake are incorrect. Several accounts of early settlers and frontiersmen say otherwise.

The lake continues to be severely neglected. Phragmites introduction was a numb brained failure. Continuation of partially treated sewage being poured into the lake has lead to high levels of phosphorous leading to poisonous algae blooms.

The introduction of carp by the starving pioneers was another stupid decision which destroyed natural habitat in the lake.

My point is that the lake does deserve to rehabilitated. Proper shoreline development would enhance the lakes desirability. My hope is the discussion among stakeholders will be an impetus for actual restoration.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3620  
Old Posted Feb 12, 2022, 6:19 AM
bob rulz bob rulz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: SL,UT
Posts: 1,609
Utah Lake definitely needs help, but the connections with Palm Jumeirah and the sheer unprecedented size and scope of the development are some of the biggest and most obvious red flags I can imagine.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Mountain West
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:52 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.