Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The thing is there isn't a single, magic bullet that will get to net zero. It will need a combination of many actions. Increased use of transit certainly needs to be a major component, but for those who can't (or won't) use transit, I would rather see them using an EV than a ICEV. The subsidies aren't there to encourage people to buy cars, but to make it easier to buy an EV instead of an ICEV.

Agreed. It's why I mentioned car sharing above. Just feels like we are trying to keep everything the same except for how cars are powered, and I'm not sure that this will be enough for the future.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by silvergate

Agreed. It's why I mentioned car sharing above. Just feels like we are trying to keep everything the same except for how cars are powered, and I'm not sure that this will be enough for the future.

Not Tesla for example, they are pushing hard towards Full Self Driving and "Robo-Taxi". This will make car ownership optional in the (near?) future. Every Tesla sold since 2017 has this ability with just a software upgrade (or v3 hardware upgrade for early Model 3's)

Obviously regulators need to come in line and accept there is will be accidents and potential loss of life, but as long as they are statistically much lower than human operated vehicles, and every incident is investigated and "learn" from it, then we could move forward. Just like every airline incident is investigated and implement changes to further enhance safety. 2000 Canadians die in car crashes every year, 100,000+ have severe injuries

The reality is that China and other markets will have Robo-taxis soon, and we in North America will be left behind due to lack of leadership

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Not Tesla for example, they are pushing hard towards Full Self Driving and "Robo-Taxi". This will make car ownership optional in the (near?) future. Every Tesla sold since 2017 has this ability with just a software upgrade (or v3 hardware upgrade for early Model 3's)

I can't believe people still fall for the line that level 5 autonomy is "Just around the corner." Clickbait title aside, this supercut of all the times Musk claimed that should help make it clear that this is SOP for Elon. He's trying to sell cars. This is what a car salesman has to say.

• Video Link

Also, building the tech and legalizing it are two very different things. There's virtually zero chance that society will accept random collateral casualties, especially from pedestrians and bystanders, just so software can be tested out.

We don't allow software that has a one in a billion chance of killing you on airplanes (I'm familiar with this as an aero eng). Hence, why Boeing took a beating for two crashes among hundreds of thousands of safe flights with the Max. And there's mostly no pedestrians and bystanders in the air (though some risk of casualties on the ground).

I'm broadly a fan of BEVs and even mostly optimistic on AI. I just think the fans are way too unrealistic on the timeline. And Musk plays on that.

[Tesladom]

Hence why I said it would exist in other arts of the World like China where regulations will be more permissible,

Please are dying every day in Canada in car crashes and we shrug our shoulders because "People" are driving and we accept that.

Look at FSD Beta tester videos on Youtube to see how good it is, tight now they are down to the 9's, this will need to be reliable into Five-six 9's

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Hence why I said it would exist in other arts of the World like China where regulations will be more permissible,

Please are dying every day in Canada in car crashes and we shrug our shoulders because "People" are driving and we accept that.

Look at FSD Beta tester videos on Youtube to see how good it is, tight now they are down to the 9's, this will need to be reliable into Five-six 9's

LOL @ anybody who believes the Chinese will approve this ahead of others. You must not be aware of what happened with the Boeing saga and the standards the Chinese insisted on.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

Hence why I said it would exist in other arts of the World like China where regulations will be more permissible,

Please are dying every day in Canada in car crashes and we shrug our shoulders because "People" are driving and we accept that.

Look at FSD Beta tester videos on Youtube to see how good it is, tight now they are down to the 9's, this will need to be reliable into Five-six 9's

Every video I've seen FSD looks... Not great. But yeah, it will be a safer alternative once operational. However, before that happens we can hopefully reduce driving deaths through other methods.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by silvergate

Every video I've seen FSD looks... Not great. But yeah, it will be a safer alternative once operational. However, before that happens we can hopefully reduce driving deaths through other methods.

Moreover, FSD to robotaxis is still a huge jump. FSD still has a human behind the wheel, monitoring in real time. It's more akin to an auto-pilot on an airplane.

Robotaxis would have to be more like elevators. Nobody needs to monitor an elevator. There's no controls for an elevator other than a destination selector. And nobody ever wonders about the safety of an elevator. Get in and push a button.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That 2 minutes only applies if you have a gas pump in your driveway. To do an apples to apples comparison, you need to include all of the time spent driving to the gas station. Sometimes you might decide to pop in while you are driving by it anyway, but other times you need to make a larger detour (or even a special trip).

Unlike the $$ savings being paid up front with the cost of an EV so eventually, you may save money if you own the car long enough, I feel the time savings in not having to 'gas-up' will never accrue to the point of making my EV refueling more time efficient than an ICE. The issue is road trips.

We never took our ICE out specifically to gas up so I'd say to top up our Prius (small tank) took less than 10 minutes a fill up. Given our mileage (efficiency and use), we'd fill up every 2 weeks.

So, that's 26 fill-ups or 260 minutes of time at the gas pump.

Wow!!!! Owning an EV saves me 4.3 hours a year!!!!

Not so fast. During my vacations, I'd gas up much more frequently, usually 2x per day, not per month. But on a road trip, I found, despite leaving home on day 1 with 100% charge, every 250km or so I had to stop for 20+ minutes to charge.

That was 3 or 4 stops a day, 60 - 80 minutes each day, as opposed to no more than 20 if I had to get off a highway and fill up after every 400 - 500km.

In other words, on a 4 day road trip, I'd break even on time saved refueling. Anything longer, and the scales tip to ICE being more time efficient.

Not only that, with an ICE, I had the choice of filling up at the end of the day or at the beginning. In an EV, my last charge had to be at the end of the day to get the quickest recharging (thus saving time and money).

Since I was never leaving with 100% range in the morning (unlike with an ICE), my first stop of the day always came much sooner than it would have had I been in an ICE and I was limited in my choices of where I could stop.

At my holiday destination, I was also limited in what I could do because I chose to go to a province with 1 supercharger. With just a 400km practical range, I couldn't travel more than 200km away from that supercharger which eliminated a large portion of the province.

Once CCS is available for my Tesla, I'll have more choices (and had I borrowed a CHaDeMo adapter, I would have have more choices) but my fill up time will have increased as well. Dramatically.

I agree, I don't have to stand out in -20 weather to fill up my car. Even if I have to plug in at that temperature, I get to sit (much longer than 20 minutes) in the comfort of my car. As well, I was able to use some of the 20 minutes charging time to pee or stretch my legs, since I wasn't literally tethered to the car while refueling. But I also had to be back to remove my car from the SC quickly at one of the stops due to demand.

It is important to note, I was traveling at the end of Sept. not in the height of the summer demand. I have no idea what time that will add to my road trip next summer.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue

Unlike the $$ savings being paid up front with the cost of an EV so eventually, you may save money if you own the car long enough, I feel the time savings in not having to 'gas-up' will never accrue to the point of making my EV refueling more time efficient than an ICE. The issue is road trips.

We never took our ICE out specifically to gas up so I'd say to top up our Prius (small tank) took less than 10 minutes a fill up. Given our mileage (efficiency and use), we'd fill up every 2 weeks.

So, that's 26 fill-ups or 260 minutes of time at the gas pump.

Wow!!!! Owning an EV saves me 4.3 hours a year!!!!

Not so fast. During my vacations, I'd gas up much more frequently, usually 2x per day, not per month. But on a road trip, I found, despite leaving home on day 1 with 100% charge, every 250km or so I had to stop for 20+ minutes to charge.

That was 3 or 4 stops a day, 60 - 80 minutes each day, as opposed to no more than 20 if I had to get off a highway and fill up after every 400 - 500km.

In other words, on a 4 day road trip, I'd break even on time saved refueling. Anything longer, and the scales tip to ICE being more time efficient.

Not only that, with an ICE, I had the choice of filling up at the end of the day or at the beginning. In an EV, my last charge had to be at the end of the day to get the quickest recharging (thus saving time and money).

Since I was never leaving with 100% range in the morning (unlike with an ICE), my first stop of the day always came much sooner than it would have had I been in an ICE and I was limited in my choices of where I could stop.

At my holiday destination, I was also limited in what I could do because I chose to go to a province with 1 supercharger. With just a 400km practical range, I couldn't travel more than 200km away from that supercharger which eliminated a large portion of the province.

Once CCS is available for my Tesla, I'll have more choices (and had I borrowed a CHaDeMo adapter, I would have have more choices) but my fill up time will have increased as well. Dramatically.

I agree, I don't have to stand out in -20 weather to fill up my car. Even if I have to plug in at that temperature, I get to sit (much longer than 20 minutes) in the comfort of my car. As well, I was able to use some of the 20 minutes charging time to pee or stretch my legs, since I wasn't literally tethered to the car while refueling. But I also had to be back to remove my car from the SC quickly at one of the stops due to demand.

It is important to note, I was traveling at the end of Sept. not in the height of the summer demand. I have no idea what time that will add to my road trip next summer.

Thanks for your perspective. It certainly is a case of YMMV as it depends on how much you need to drive in your daily life and how many (and type of) road trips you do in a year. If do don't drive much and most of your mileage is on road trips, where you can't charge at home, then the cost savings will be harder to come by.

For me, I would have to fill my Yaris (which gets very similar mileage to a Prius) at least once a week (at the time, I was supporting a customer that was near the airport and didn't have good bus service). With my EV, I can charge while I sleep and have enough range to last me the day.

As for road trips, when we do take one, we are taking the family, so the van is more comfortable for everyone (the kids have inherited our tall genes). I am looking forward to being able to replace it with a long range EV, but there aren't any minivan BEVs yet. I am hoping to drive this vehicle into the ground, so that should give another 5 or 6 years for something to become available.

If you are taking an EV on a road trip, one key is finding lodging that has level 2 charging (more and more hotels and Airbnbs are adding them). That will reduce the number of times you need to DCFC and will ensure you are back up to 100% while you sleep.

[Truenorth00]

Question to those of you living in Ottawa. What's your winter range degradation like? What kind of range so you get say driving from Ottawa to Toronto?

We're due for a replacement and starting to do research. I'm curious to know what the minimum range is. I'm not too fussed with 1000 km roadtrips. Family for us is mostly Montreal, Toronto and London.

[waterloowarrior]

Model 3 LR stealth performance: In the summer I can make it to Toronto with one stop (usually go to Kingston, grab lunch at Pita Pit, use washroom, and stop by the LCBO). It may require two stops if it's very cold or driving against the wind. Probably ±400 KM in the summer, ±240 km in January.

[Truenorth00]

Disappointing to see a Model 3 LR that low in January. Was thinking it might be closer to 300 km.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Model 3 LR stealth performance: In the summer I can make it to Toronto with one stop (usually go to Kingston, grab lunch at Pita Pit, use washroom, and stop by the LCBO). It may require two stops if it's very cold or driving against the wind. Probably ±400 KM in the summer, ±240 km in January.

Do you have the newer version with the heat pump or the older one without? Those with a heat pump, at what temperature does the resistive heater kick in (I know Hyundai and KIAs it is about -20C and the LEAF is about 0C)?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Model 3 LR stealth performance: In the summer I can make it to Toronto with one stop (usually go to Kingston, grab lunch at Pita Pit, use washroom, and stop by the LCBO). It may require two stops if it's very cold or driving against the wind. Probably ±400 KM in the summer, ±240 km in January.

As some posters above pointed out for daily commuting the charging at home saves time and money but if you use your vehicle regularly for road trips even short ones to Toronto why put yourself through that? It is like going back 100 years having to stop twice on the way to Toronto. Whenever I am at one of those Enroute stations I imagine what it will be like if and when we get real penetration. Even at 20 minutes it takes 10 times as long to charge as to fill up which means we would need 10 times as much space.

[waterloowarrior]

I have the older version without the heat pump... I also drive 130 on the highway, which affects the range. https://teslike.com/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

I have the older version without the heat pump... I also drive 130 on the highway, which affects the range. https://teslike.com/

So would 270 km be a good guess for 2022 models with your driving style?

I am wondering what the non-Tesla models will be like now. Wish we had better data and calculators to analyze this stuff.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So would 270 km be a good guess for 2022 models with your driving style?

I am wondering what the non-Tesla models will be like now. Wish we had better data and calculators to analyze this stuff.

Not sure as some people have been having issues with the heat pumps in extreme cold... I had a hybrid before and would never switch back from electric. I drive a lot during the week and the savings in both time and convenience from never needing to go to a gas station outweigh an extra stop on an occasional -20c road trip.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

As some posters above pointed out for daily commuting the charging at home saves time and money but if you use your vehicle regularly for road trips even short ones to Toronto why put yourself through that? It is like going back 100 years having to stop twice on the way to Toronto. Whenever I am at one of those Enroute stations I imagine what it will be like if and when we get real penetration. Even at 20 minutes it takes 10 times as long to charge as to fill up which means we would need 10 times as much space.

As to your first point, I agree 2 stops to Toronto is too much (and I would have to do that in the winter to make sure I have enough range should something untoward happen.)

One stop on the way was what we did with the ICE as well. I'm old, and I get too stiff and sore if I don't get out to walk around every 2 hours or so.

In fact, on our EV road trip, our first stop came almost at the 3 hour point which I would have preferred earlier but that would have introduced an extra charging into the trip.

I have a cousin that still, at my age, will drive from Ottawa to NS without an overnight stay. There is no way any EV on the market would work for them because charging time would be too much to add to the 17 hours of driving time.

On the other hand, for us, we break at the 8.5 hour mark (unless I'm working on our departure day so we don't leave until after noon and then our stops are Quebec City and Moncton.) In either case, it isn't more stops than we had before, just longer ones and not always when we would have chosen if we were in an ICE.

Your point about numbers of chargers is reasonable if exaggerated. My guess is it will be 3 - 4x as long, not 10x. With the ICE, we never managed to fill in under 5 minutes from arrive at the pump, get out, credit card shit, pump, and then move the car. Our stop was always at least 10 because one person was filling while the other peeing. Then the other is cleaning windshield and tossing garbage while the person who pumped gas went to the bathroom.

But even with 3 - 4x as long, you are right we're going to need at least 3 - 4x as many charging stations along highly traveled routes (and that 20 min is with a Supercharger, not CCS, so only applies to Teslas.)

We often arrived after someone using a CCS and left before them at the Irving stations (which had a mix of brands.)

And, in R. de Loup, we got the last available charger and it took almost at least 1.5x as long since all the chargers were shared. That was our longest charge of the trip. On the way home we managed to skip it because we had charged to 85% on the way to the hotel and then picked up enough to take us to 90% from the block heater outlet (with permission.) Thankfully there were no problems or wait at Levis (a not uncommon occurrence.)

Next year we do the trip in August and I suspect it will be much more challenging because Tesla has added so many cars to the roads and I'll be traveling in high season.

[SidetrackedSue]

Originally Posted by roger1818

If you are taking an EV on a road trip, one key is finding lodging that has level 2 charging (more and more hotels and Airbnbs are adding them). That will reduce the number of times you need to DCFC and will ensure you are back up to 100% while you sleep.

In an ideal world.

For both dates we hit our preferred stopping point (and only place within 150km with hotels with L2 chargers IIRC) the two hotels were full. Plus they were 45 and $70 more per night. For that kind of money, I'll pay the extra $15 at a Supercharger.

To complicate matters further, when traveling at any time, as EVs get more popular, what are the odds that there will be another EV or 2 or 3 at the hotel so you will have to leave without any additional charge?

Again, we were traveling at the end of September. Our hotel in Halifax was in an retail park as opposed to either of our favourite waterfront hotels solely because it had the L2 charger and we weren't about to drive the 25 minutes out of town to the SC.

We were there for 5 nights and there was another Tesla staying there after the first night so we coordinated between us so that his big driving around day we stayed in town and the night before we left, he unplugged at 10 and we plugged in so were ready to go in the morning.

He was very nice and was used to working things out with other EVs since he was a long-time owner so it wasn't a bad experience. But it could have been. The hotel's policy is first come, first served.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Not sure as some people have been having issues with the heat pumps in extreme cold... I had a hybrid before and would never switch back from electric. I drive a lot during the week and the savings in both time and convenience from never needing to go to a gas station outweigh an extra stop on an occasional -20c road trip.

The wife really like to take Hwy 7 going to TO. So I am mostly concerned about that Peterborough-Perth stretch.