Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[esquire]

Originally Posted by megadude

I mentioned this before and I'm sure others have, if you're a national olympic committee and you want to win some more medals, and can get the necessary funding, you can focus on niche sports, build the facilities and try to attract young athletes to that sport.

I was making this observation the other day... Canada has an incredibly inefficient allocation of Winter Olympic athletes. We have two of the largest collections of elite Winter Sports athletes in the world, but they happen to play on the men's and women's ice hockey teams meaning that collectively they can only win two medals between them. Unlike in various ski/skating disciplines where one highly skilled individual can medal in multiple events.

The Chinese have figured this out and according to that list they have a total of 6 indoor long track speed skating venues!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was wondering about Richmond. What is it now?

Basically a recreational facility. There are hockey rinks, a big gym, basketball courts, etc. There is even a cool Olympic museum. It's a nice place to visit, I checked it out a couple of years ago while I had a long layover at YVR.

It's so big that it's hard to capture a photo of it all, but this gives you an idea:

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I was making this observation the other day... Canada has an incredibly inefficient allocation of Winter Olympic athletes. We have two of the largest collections of elite Winter Sports athletes in the world, but they happen to play on the men's and women's ice hockey teams meaning that collectively they can only win two medals between them. Unlike in various ski/skating disciplines where one highly skilled individual can medal in multiple events.

A lot of Canadian NSOs coast along as legacy orgs on the basis that they're used to having sheer numbers and skill planted upon them. Hockey Canada doesn't really need to do much work because good hockey players are just created in Canada naturally. That sort of apathy leads to organizations which are not really strong at having to create athletes when other countries catch up or your own athlete sourcing declines. USA Hockey has the National Team Development Program for this reason. Hockey Canada's Program of Excellence is...thirty years old? I don't think it's been updated much since.

This happened in Beijing already with curling. Canada's mixed curling team was announced just weeks prior to the Games and weren't given a chance to really prepare or practice all that match. COVID's been difficult, but that hasn't prevented other countries from already developing mixed doubles specialists. Canada's solution? Stick two of our most famous curlers on the same team and hope for the best. The result was a non-medal. Curling Canada hasn't innovated itself yet to better prioritize this event.

This sort of perspective from NSOs, assuming we'll get by because we're Canada and wintry, leads to us now arguably underperforming in winter sports and overperforming in summer sports. Our Tennis, Basketball, and Soccer programs are able to churn out athletes because they've been forced to develop strong athletes which didn't exist prior.

As an aside, I don't know why Canada doesn't have better athletes in cross country skiing or biathlon. You'd think Canada would dominate something like that.

Originally Posted by esquire

The Chinese have figured this out and according to that list they have a total of 6 indoor long track speed skating venues!

I can't remember if I was saying this earlier or not but whenever China builds a new arena these days it more than likely has an ice plant and machine available, meaning the facility can host hockey, figure skating, etc. if it needs to. China held a national figure skating event at a new arena in Chongqing a few years ago which, to those who are aware, is not a winter sport city. It's hot and humid all year and not a place where one would think of playing a winter sport, but they're eager to build these facilities everywhere. Beijing 2022 was probably too soon to see these results immediately but they'll be more evident in 2026 and beyond.

According to the IIHF, China now has 537 indoor ice arenas, only behind Canada, the US, and Russia. They had only 48 in 2015.

China's recent interest in sport has to do with diplomacy through sport, which was what initially propelled their table tennis program 60 years ago.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Basically a recreational facility. There are hockey rinks, a big gym, basketball courts, etc. There is even a cool Olympic museum. It's a nice place to visit, I checked it out a couple of years ago while I had a long layover at YVR.

It's so big that it's hard to capture a photo of it all, but this gives you an idea:

Thanks. That's pretty nice.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I was making this observation the other day... Canada has an incredibly inefficient allocation of Winter Olympic athletes. We have two of the largest collections of elite Winter Sports athletes in the world, but they happen to play on the men's and women's ice hockey teams meaning that collectively they can only win two medals between them. Unlike in various ski/skating disciplines where one highly skilled individual can medal in multiple events.

The Chinese have figured this out and according to that list they have a total of 6 indoor long track speed skating venues!

We actually don't do too badly in speed skating and on the slopes, all things considered.

Imagine how great we'd be if things were more strategically structured.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Imagine how great we'd be if things were more strategically structured.

Inasmuch as the Olympics matters, I suppose.

The USSR used to do exceptionally well in the Olympics. China’s rise reminds me of that.

Great for a nationalistic rah-rah-rah for a couple of weeks, but otherwise meh?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Inasmuch as the Olympics matters, I suppose.

The USSR used to do exceptionally well in the Olympics. China’s rise reminds me of that.

Great for a nationalistic rah-rah-rah for a couple of weeks, but otherwise meh?

Well yeah.

I mean, we can argue that nothing matters: the Stanley Cup, the Super Bowl, the Grey Cup, the Oscars, Nobel Prizes, etc.

Ultimately such things do matter to a significant numbers of people. Otherwise they wouldn't exist.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well yeah.

I mean, we can argue that nothing matters: the Stanley Cup, the Super Bowl, the Grey Cup, the Oscars, Nobel Prizes, etc.

Ultimately such things do matter to a significant numbers of people. Otherwise they wouldn't exist.

Sure, my larger point being that a huge state-sponsored ‘sport’ program as a sign of global dominance always seemed kind of unnatural to me.

Most countries let the grassroots push upwards until a critical mass is reached. There might be a surge of interest whenever the Olympics came around, but huge amateur development programs driven by state ideology just feels off.

[jamincan]

Is China building 600-something ice rinks state-sponsored sport programs, or is it simply a very large country with a growing middle class building recreational facilities for its people?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Is China building 600-something ice rinks state-sponsored sport programs, or is it simply a very large country with a growing middle class building recreational facilities for its people?

Mostly the first, although sports and recreational programs are becoming more appealing now that the vast majority of the country no longer lives in abject poverty. What wasn't really feasible a generation ago as a hobby or profession is much more attainable now, although the public service is still the preferred profession for many, IIRC.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by jamincan

Is China building 600-something ice rinks state-sponsored sport programs, or is it simply a very large country with a growing middle class building recreational facilities for its people?

Based on the fact that there are apparently only four indoor long track speed skating rinks in all of North America, I get the impression that you don't build these things just to give junior something to do on a Sunday afternoon.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by esquire

Basically a recreational facility. There are hockey rinks, a big gym, basketball courts, etc. There is even a cool Olympic museum. It's a nice place to visit, I checked it out a couple of years ago while I had a long layover at YVR.

It's so big that it's hard to capture a photo of it all, but this gives you an idea:

All that wood on the ceiling came from Castlegar! All cut at our Kalesnikoff's lumber mill and then laminated in the Okanagan.

[WhipperSnapper]

Canada has now one medal in every winter sport except Nordic Combined after the freak bronze in ski jumping. I doubt the list of nations with medals in as many or all the sports is very long. Canada has medals in 14 sports. Norway has medals in ten sports.

The Netherlands has medals in 4 sports; 127 in long speed skating; 6 in short track; 2 in figure skating; one in snowboarding.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Canada has now one medal in every winter sport except Nordic Combined after the freak bronze in ski jumping. I doubt the list of nations with medals in as many or all the sports is very long.

Going from memory here, since the Great Canadian sport reset going into Vancouver 2010, I don't think any country has had so many varied sport medals in any Winter Olympics since then. At each games, Canada medals in more different sports than most teams. Again, going from a faulty memory only Germany might be the exception. When I was a kid you could forget cross country, biathlon, luge and bob (save Vic Emery much earlier), forget hockey. Anyone old enough to remember the conehead helmets in the luge, I'll have to see if I can find a picture.

Every time I think of hockey, in my day, I think of how that 1980 American medal woulda/coulda/shoulda been ours. Very much a buried story, we had the Soviets on the ropes and couldn't finish them off with our college kids who had a better record head to head against the Americans. Mike Eruzione saw the game and said to himself, if we ever get them in that position we won't let them off the hook. The Soviets were ripe for the pickin' in that tournament, they had a hard time against Finland as well IIRC.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by elly63

Anyone old enough to remember the conehead helmets in the luge, I'll have to see if I can find a picture.

These were from 1976, wow, that's the only picture i could find. I'm going to check for video

[elly63]

Ya gotta love the 70s, getting a former Formula One driver (Jackie Stewart) to commentate on luge. They look at the new equipment at 1.44. Actually stick with the video and you can see a Canadian choking (as we were wont to do in those days) and a look at the East German luge program

• Video Link

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by esquire

I presume that the facility in Richmond could be converted back from its current use to a long-track speed skating facility if Vancouver mounts a successful bid for the 2030 Olympics?

I was reading an article a few days ago, I think it was the mayor of Richmond, talking about it. He said they intentionally left the mechanicals in place to convert it back to a skating oval if necessary. He said at the point of the interview several weeks or months ago, that nothing has been talked about in regards to Richmond being a part of a potential bid and how it would work. He mentioned that it would cost many millions of dollars to convert it back to skating, and then back to the community use it is now, plus the inconvenience to the community by removing the facility from use for an unspecified period of time (I can only guess it would be out of use for more than year). On the other hand, it will be a 20 year old building by then, so perhaps an Olympic refresh might be good for the place, and save local taxpayers footing the bill for that.

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by elly63

These were from 1976, wow, that's the only picture i could find. I'm going to check for video

Sure glad those weren’t around when my brother was sliding! 2 time Olympian in doubles luge.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I was reading an article a few days ago, I think it was the mayor of Richmond, talking about it. He said they intentionally left the mechanicals in place to convert it back to a skating oval if necessary. He said at the point of the interview several weeks or months ago, that nothing has been talked about in regards to Richmond being a part of a potential bid and how it would work. He mentioned that it would cost many millions of dollars to convert it back to skating, and then back to the community use it is now, plus the inconvenience to the community by removing the facility from use for an unspecified period of time (I can only guess it would be out of use for more than year). On the other hand, it will be a 20 year old building by then, so perhaps an Olympic refresh might be good for the place, and save local taxpayers footing the bill for that.

Interesting. Even if it costs millions to temporarily retrofit the place for long-track skating for a year or so (I assume they'd have to have it in that mode long enough to work the bugs out and host some events before the Olympics themselves), it would still probably be a lot cheaper than building new considering the sheer size and huge cost of the place. It cost $178 million to build the oval which opened in 2008... for context, Canada Life Centre in Winnipeg cost $133.5 million and it opened in 2004.

And as you point out, it might be a timely renovation considering the facility's age by 2030.

[WhipperSnapper]

Taking away a valued community centre for a year or two will not go well in garnering support for another circus. Calgary's oval isn't getting younger either although I have no clue what if any impact that has on the facility. There are 100 year old arenas in operation.