NEW YORK | 200 Greenwich - 2 WTC | 1,226 FT | 55 FLOORS

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I'm more distracted by what a freaking mess West St is in that view. Why isn't that an underground highway again? In theory could the highway be submerged and still clear the passageways to the WFC? Anyone know?

There is a mall below it and probably various subway tunnels, so you cannot submerge it.
Here is how it looks underground:

[JMKeynes]

I really hope that the Visual House renderings are the final version and not that — shown in the model a few month ago.

One caveat is that VH's renderings aren't always what's built. It really — D..k Cheney that the old HBO building was simply reclad and that this gem was not built in its place.



https://visualhouse.com/stories/west-42nd-street

[TonyNYC]

You reference architectural standards. If those existed, would 740 8th Ave be a serious proposal? I think not. It's just a matter of volume. NY has some of the best architecture and some of the worst. It has a lot of everything. This particular tower is derivative of many others. It's nice, but it's not iconic.[/QUOTE]

Agree with you, this tower does nothing for me.. it's ok and all but not Iconic and it doesn't connect visually with 1 WTC at all.

Whole build out looks uninspiring.. never coming close to capturing the impact of the Original Twins!

— at this point 20 years later.. just build it and be done with it.

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

You reference architectural standards. If those existed, would 740 8th Ave be a serious proposal? I think not. It's just a matter of volume. NY has some of the best architecture and some of the worst. It has a lot of everything. This particular tower is derivative of many others. It's nice, but it's not iconic.

Agree with you, this tower does nothing for me.. it's ok and all but not Iconic and it doesn't connect visually with 1 WTC at all.

Whole build out looks uninspiring.. never coming close to capturing the impact of the Original Twins!

— at this point 20 years later.. just build it and be done with it.[/QUOTE]

Nothing about ground zero connects visually with 1 WTC, nothing.
What impact? Literal size? Because the Twins were not good looking buildings.

[worldtrade2021]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

NY has some of the best architecture and some of the worst. It has a lot of everything. This particular tower is derivative of many others. It's nice, but it's not iconic.

That doesn't seem too out of place with the kind of cost cutting that goes on in construction of buildings in New York, specifically at the WTC site. Apparently the old WTC plaza was supposed to have much more shops and less open space but because of cost cutting they left it pretty much barren until renovations in 1999.

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

Whole build out looks uninspiring.. never coming close to capturing the impact of the Original Twins!

Agreed but if a more seamless pedestrian experience can be created when the eventual construction is complete, that could in part make up for this, just as renovations at street level helped increase the appeal of the old WTC site during its final years.

Faster opening of the area around the Performing Arts Center and the east plaza of 1 WTC (which is said to become the main entrance for 1 WTC) might in the mean time help with this goal.

Also if at least from some angles a "twin" apperance can be seen between 1 WTC and 2 WTC (specifically when viewed from the west or the southeast), that could also restore some of the impact the original twins had.

Right now 1 WTC barely has the impact of a single one of the original twin towers. There definitely needs to be another comparably tall building nearby on the WTC site to fill the gap that is present.

Since there appears to be a flat roof forming the highest level of 2 World Trade Center on the newest render and the render doesn't show radio antennas or satellite dishes at that highest level, it would also be a good idea to put an outdoor observation deck at the highest roof portion of the 2 World Trade Center that will be open to visitors.

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

— at this point 20 years later.. just build it and be done with it.

For whatever reason developers and prospective anchor tenants seem to be taking their time and are in no rush to start, which is strange considering how important this building is for completing this site (moreso arguably than 5 WTC, and there's been more recent news about that building than this one). The longer they wait, the more chance that the building will probably be value engineered and/or shortened in height, so it doesn't make much sense for them to keep waiting before they announce and start construction after new renders are made available imo.

At the very least they should only officially release renders when they are sure construction will begin in at most a few weeks, not predictions of "at the end of the year", "the beginning of/by next year" (which was done in 2015 and September 2017 only to be followed with disappointing news that construction will remain at a standstill). The amount of false starts so far has a demoralizing effect on people waiting to see this building built (both prospective tenants and the general public).

[The North One]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Nice>meh>yuck

(three versions, in sequence, starting with Foster's diamonds)

Yeah pretty much. This design is a big yikes, ugly.

I didn't think I'd ever miss that BIG design but here we are. Even that looked more modern and appropriate.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by The North One

Yeah pretty much. This design is a big yikes, ugly.

I didn't think I'd ever miss that BIG design but here we are. Even that looked more modern and appropriate.

The 2 WTC with diamonds was my favorite of the complex along with 3 WTC with the extensive braces and spires. I was trying to search for a pic of the 3 WTC with spires and found this s article on the reason the spires were removed-

https://inhabitat.com/redesigned-3-wtc-axes-rooftop-spires-to-fit-in-with-new-neighbors/

[worldtrade2021]

Originally Posted by DCReid

The 2 WTC with diamonds was my favorite of the complex along with 3 WTC with the extensive braces and spires. I was trying to search for a pic of the 3 WTC with spires and found this s article on the reason the spires were removed-

https://inhabitat.com/redesigned-3-wtc-axes-rooftop-spires-to-fit-in-with-new-neighbors/

That's unfortunate if the spires atop 3 WTC were removed in favor of it fitting in with BIG's design of 2 WTC.

However, most likely it was also because of cost cutting and value engineering, much like how the X-bracing at the base of 3 WTC was removed. So regardless of what the design of 2 WTC would be, the longer time went on before 3 WTC was completed, the more likely the design would be stripped down like it has. 3 WTC also hit roadblocks in construction after the podium at built up in 2014-2015 before construction resumed in earnest above the podium in 2016.

Which is why it's very important imo that a tower on the WTC site be constructed as soon as possible after renders are officially released and the construction be continuous after that point. Even without the start of active construction and no worries about empty rental space in a building, the past has shown that the design of the tower can still be changed significantly the longer time it takes for an anchor tenant to be found and formal plans of resuming construction to be put into motion.

The encouraging thing is that unlike with previous renderings of 2 WTC, this render of 2 WTC comes accompanied with an identity (2 WTC logo, designs and themes attached to the 2 WTC brand) that the previous renders didn't have and this has been seen showing up two times (https://www.chloeyae.design/work/2wtc and more recently https://maria-farah.com/2WTC).

Both projects that were delayed and had no seeming start to construction in sight (Performing Arts Center and St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church) only sped up construction when money had been donated by rich people and those at high levels of local NYC politics.

So if anyone would want to see 2 WTC rise ASAP with the current design, fingers crossed that a rich person (or a few rich people) and efforts by powerful people in NYC and NY politics direct substantial amounts of money (ranging in the millions to the billions) for the purpose of getting 2 WTC rising sooner than later.

Originally Posted by Hudson11

also for what its worth the 2WTC page on Silverstein's website has recently been locked, only those with a password can now access it. Probably in preparation of an update of the page with these new graphics and renderings.

https://www.silversteinproperties.com/commercial-office-space-nyc/2-world-trade-center

Still for some reason this sort of change is not reflected on the wtc.com website (which still shows the BIG design of 2 WTC): https://wtc.com/office-space/2-world-trade-center

[The North One]

Originally Posted by DCReid

The 2 WTC with diamonds was my favorite of the complex along with 3 WTC with the extensive braces and spires. I was trying to search for a pic of the 3 WTC with spires and found this s article on the reason the spires were removed-

https://inhabitat.com/redesigned-3-wtc-axes-rooftop-spires-to-fit-in-with-new-neighbors/

Yeah, the original 2 WTC design was certainly the crown jewel of this whole complex. It was the showpiece.

Everything at the WTC site has been value engineered to death these past 20 years. Such a long series of disappointments.

[worldtrade2021]

From the September 2021 article that had given the most assuring news at the time that construction would resume on 2 WTC:

An executive at Silverstein told the outlet that tech and finance companies are expressing interest in occupying the planned tower, at the southwest corner of Church and Vesey streets. The developer hopes to start building in the next 6 to 12 months.

https://therealdeal.com/2021/09/08/with-new-architect-silverstein-to-get-2-wtc-started/

That was in September 2021. 6 months after then is March 2022. So between March 2022 and September 2022 is the earliest planned that any news regarding start of construction on 2 WTC would be expected.

The preliminary newly designed renders of 2 WTC being available before March 2022 is encouraging news but still not really indicative of construction beginning soon. Even an announcement of an anchor tenant (as happened with News Corp. and 21st Century Fox in 2015/2016 and Deutsche Bank in September 2017) doesn't necessarily mean much either, as the anchor tenant can still back out at the last moment.

If there is no definite news regarding start of above ground construction on 2 WTC between March and September in 2022, then it is almost certain construction on 2 WTC will not start until after the Performing Arts Center is complete (i.e. most likely after 2023). Hate to say it too, but don't get your hopes up until there is definite news and signs of above ground construction at the site of 2 WTC.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Gantz

There is a mall below it and probably various subway tunnels, so you cannot submerge it.
Here is how it looks underground:

I'm aware the Westfield/WTCTH passage runs under West St to the WFC. My question was how deep and whether it precluded the ability to submerge West St through the area. Also the PATH tubes are something like 80 feet below grade so that probably wouldn't prevent it.

[JZeig1]

I just have one question. Has any besides me deduced the idea that - wouldn't having the roof lines staggered on the towards the west would be in keeping with D. Lbeskind's original tapered design advancing light duing 911 periodically.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by JMKeynes

https://visualhouse.com/stories/west-42nd-street

This is absolutely stunning, and a damn shame it never became reality, but am I the only one that's having a hard time understanding what exactly is holding the building up at the base?

[JMKeynes]

Good point.

[Visionist]

If you look closely at the area between the podium and the midrise section, you can make out a glass encased core sitting separately behind the tower. The floors are likely cantilevered off of that, plus the few skimpy beams visible in the lobby levels, which probably only hold up the few podium floors above.

[worldtrade2021]

Credit to TK2000 on New York YIMBY forums for this following image:

https://forum.newyorkyimby.com/t/new-york-200-greenwich-st-2wtc-1-348-ft-88-floors-on-hold/78/1845


If this diagram is true, the new design of 2 World Trade Center might again have a different footprint (green is the new design footprint, red is the old (2006) design footprint). However, the footprint for the new design is not as radically different as it was with the BIG design.


Above image courtesy of https://wtc.com/office-space/2-world-trade-center



Edit: From the discussions in this thread here and and here, it appears that there might be two possible designs, depending on whether the tower is constructed after an anchor tenant is found and remains committed, or the tower is built on spec:

this most recent design being if an anchor tenant is found and stays commited and the other design (leaked by YIMBY in November 2021) being built on spec if the tenant pulls out again at the last minute.

That would make sense considering that the footprint of this newest design is slightly different than the footprint of the original 2006 design, while the footprint of the design leaked in November 2021 is essentially the same as in the original 2006 design. If they have to build on spec, it's much easier for them to just construct the tower using the design that fits in the original footprint (already constructed to street level back in 2012).

[weatherguru18]

Not that my opinion means anything at all--and it doesn't--but I think the entire WTC complex is a mess.

What they did RIGHT was the park and the footprints. Powerful, moving and a nice tribute. However from an architectural, aesthetic POV, I feel 1WTC is completely underwhelming with a cheap antenna on top. It certainly doesn't scream iconic like some of the towers in China or the Middle East. It's a glass box with slanted sides. OHHHH! Fancy. *eye roll*

3 and 4 WTC are forgettable to say the least and don't do the site justice. The — they're throwing out for 2 WTC is hideous and somebody is playing a cruel joke on lower manhatten.

These buildings don't just represent NYC. They represent the country and are a monument to the darkest day in this country's history and it should be a symbol that we all look to for pride and a sense of resiliency, at least that's how I see it.

I realize it's business and it's all about the market needs but damn, how hard is it to come up with something truly inspiring and iconic?

[Busy Bee]

You're not wrong. But 4WTC is the best of the bunch and a fine building by any metric.

[worldtrade2021]

Originally Posted by weatherguru18

Not that my opinion means anything at all--and it doesn't--but I think the entire WTC complex is a mess.

What they did RIGHT was the park and the footprints. Powerful, moving and a nice tribute. However from an architectural, aesthetic POV, I feel 1WTC is completely underwhelming with a cheap antenna on top. It certainly doesn't scream iconic like some of the towers in China or the Middle East. It's a glass box with slanted sides. OHHHH! Fancy. *eye roll*

3 and 4 WTC are forgettable to say the least and don't do the site justice. The — they're throwing out for 2 WTC is hideous and somebody is playing a cruel joke on lower manhatten.

These buildings don't just represent NYC. They represent the country and are a monument to the darkest day in this country's history and it should be a symbol that we all look to for pride and a sense of resiliency, at least that's how I see it.

I realize it's business and it's all about the market needs but damn, how hard is it to come up with something truly inspiring and iconic?

True, the entire reconstruction process is a mess, but what is really the worst part is how long it has taken to rebuild the site.

In the old WTC site, the last of the buildings to be constructed (WTC 7) was finished 23 years after the opening of the twin towers. At the rate things are going, 2 World Trade Center won't be finished until 2028 or 2029.


In other news, someone has reached out to Foster + Partners to confirm whether the design render by Visualhouse is in fact what is now planned.
https://www.archpaper.com/2022/02/new-two-world-trade-center-renders-reveal-a-mirrored-revamp/

Is the third time truly the charm for Two World Trade Center? New renderings spotted by New York YIMBY on February 1 seem to reveal the long-delayed tower’s new look, a marked departure from what was first unveiled by Foster + Partners back in 2005.

That’s not too much of a surprise. Although Foster + Partners was awarded the project 17 years ago and the foundation was laid in 2013, work has been proceeding at a slow clip and the original team was replaced by BIG in 2015 after developer Silverstein Properties decided to take a more contemporary approach and position the tower as the future home of Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation and 21st Century Fox.

Gone was Foster + Partners’ plans for a slender 88-story office tower that terminated in four sloping diamonds intended to draw the eye downward toward the 9/11 Memorial. In its place, BIG designed a set of six boxy volumes that would rise and rotate from a podium up to 80 stories, with the underside of each segment featuring scrolling news and stock tickers. However, News Corp. ultimately backed out, and without an anchor tenant (BIG’s design would have also required updates to the extant foundation), Silverstein Properties handed the project back to Norman Foster in January of 2020.


At the time, it was a bit unclear whether that meant the old design would come back or something new would be considered; Larry Silverstein said the original proposal would be “significantly modified” to account for current tastes and updated needs. (Even after BIG took over the project, Foster’s diamond design could still be found on official artwork in the subway system and in murals across New York City.)

More definitive answers as to what will be built at 200 Greenwich Street in Manhattan’s Financial District appeared in November, when New York YIMBY posted photos of an architectural model depicting tall, split volumes atop a longer base. Now, the renderings released earlier this month from Visualhouse appear to corroborate that.


For fans of the original proposal, you’re out of luck, as Foster + Partners is apparently planning a staggered bundle of slender volumes with each topped by a green roof. A cascade of terraces will move from the podium up to the peak toward One World Trade Center to the west and top out at about 1,350 feet. Each terrace, from the renderings, will be broken up with plantings, and it looks like each vertical volume will hold intermediary outdoor plazas—a stark contrast from the singular, sculptural structure previously pitched. It’s likely these will be amenity spaces for office occupants and should provide sweeping views of Manhattan on the eastern side and New Jersey to the west.

Speaking of the exterior and specifically the curtain wall, it appears Foster + Partners has opted for mirrored floor-to-ceiling windows banded with thick vertical steel “poles” that will segment each volume and direct the eye upward. As Curbed noted in Christopher Bonanos’s breakdown of the new design, boxy glass towers are more or less typical for the area now, and the vertical banding of 2 WTC’s facade will find similar company in Rogers Stirk Harbour + Partners’ 3 World Trade Center tower on the other side of Fulton Street.


No estimated construction start or opening dates have been made public yet. Once finished, 2 WTC will fill in one of the last empty lots at the World Trade Center complex, capping Studio Libeskind’s 2003 master plan for the 16-acre site alongside the forthcoming Five World Trade Center. AN has reached out to Foster + Partners for more information and will update this article accordingly.

Tribeca Citizen has this to say:

RENDERINGS FOR 2 WTC
Yimby has leaked renderings of 2 World Trade Center that are worth a look. (That is the old rendering, above.) Silverstein has not released them yet, but I have it on good authority that these are accurate. It’s a glass tower design by Norman Foster of Foster + Partners — 1,350 feet tall with landscaped terraces throughout its height.

[JMKeynes]

Anyone who thinks that the WTC is value engineered hasn’t actually been there. Before I took an in-house job in the suburbs, I worked downtown for twenty years and walked by the WTC every day. It’s gorgeous. The quality of 3 WTC, for example, is absolutely extraordinary, and materials are utterly opulent.