[Halifax] Skye Halifax (1565 Granville) | 66 m | 2 x 21 fl | U/C

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

I don't disagree with most of this. As usual, our esteemed Council has been touting the wrong things and leading the city in a direction where people did not want it to go. See the feedback the last week or two from the disabled about the changes to SGR as just the latest example. DT Halifax has already become a largely hostile and unwelcoming place to many taxpayers and it seems to be only getting worse.

Of course, if Skye had already been built, it might be notable only for being the country's largest AirBnB.

Have you noticed that HRM staff never provide traffic counts for the morning/evening commute ?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Tax dollars are growing off the peninsula. Not many families can afford to live on the peninsula and the residential boom for family homes is all off peninsula and over time more voting power will be held outside the Centre Plan area. Traffic will continue to be a mess and electric buses and/or an electric ferry will be a waste of money. The future lies outside the urban centre and clogged roads at commute time will be an even bigger headache.

I'm not following. How are electric buses a waste of money when one of their biggest advantages is that they reduce overall cost compared to conventional buses? And how would electric ferries be a waste of money due to an off-peninsula residential boom when the electric ferries were proposed on a route that serves suburban commuters who live far from the peninsula?

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Tax dollars are growing off the peninsula. Not many families can afford to live on the peninsula and the residential boom for family homes is all off peninsula and over time more voting power will be held outside the Centre Plan area. Traffic will continue to be a mess and electric buses and/or an electric ferry will be a waste of money. The future lies outside the urban centre and clogged roads at commute time will be an even bigger headache.

Hmm I doubt that, the peninsula will continue to grow. It will be much more dense growth than what we are use to, less single family homes and more large scale residential development. The population will continue to rise on the peninsula a lot in the coming years and so will off peninsula.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

The population will continue to rise on the peninsula a lot in the coming years and so will off peninsula.

As will the divide between the two population groups.

Peninsular Haligonians living in their studio apartment, cycling to work every day, shopping at their neighbourhood market after work every day, or walking to a neighbourhood restaurant in the evenings.

"County" Haligonians living in their SFHs, commuting by car to their off peninsula jobs every day, and driving their SUV to Costco to shop every weekend, or using the SUV to take their kids to hockey practice at the rink.

Ne'er the twain shall meet, and neither type of Haligonian will understand or sympathize with the other...........

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm not following. How are electric buses a waste of money when one of their biggest advantages is that they reduce overall cost compared to conventional buses? And how would electric ferries be a waste of money due to an off-peninsula residential boom when the electric ferries were proposed on a route that serves suburban commuters who live far from the peninsula?

An electric ferry carries 200 passengers. A bus may carry 30 people. How many vehicles use the Bedford Highway to get to the peninsula - HRM never provides a vehicle count. For every person on the peninsula there are 5 people off the peninsula and this ratio will increase as families move to HRM. Note how the burbs population has increased in the past 40 -50 years. Buying a home off peninsula is much cheaper. When we bought our home in downtown Dartmouth we could not afford a home on peninsula Halifax and we moved from Woodlawn where housing was more expensive than downtown Dartmouth.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Colin May

An electric ferry carries 200 passengers. A bus may carry 30 people. How many vehicles use the Bedford Highway to get to the peninsula - HRM never provides a vehicle count. For every person on the peninsula there are 5 people off the peninsula and this ratio will increase as families move to HRM. Note how the burbs population has increased in the past 40 -50 years. Buying a home off peninsula is much cheaper. When we bought our home in downtown Dartmouth we could not afford a home on peninsula Halifax and we moved from Woodlawn where housing was more expensive than downtown Dartmouth.

I'm not sure how any of that leads to the conclusion that using vehicles which lower the cost of proving transit is a waste of money? In fact, I'm not even sure there's a direct connection.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm not sure how any of that leads to the conclusion that using vehicles which lower the cost of proving transit is a waste of money? In fact, I'm not even sure there's a direct connection.

It is a waste of money because a certain number of jobs need to move to where people live, and where more people will live in the next 10-20 years.
Government offices do not need to be on the peninsula, medical facilities excepted because that horse left the barn long ago.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Peninsular Haligonians living in their studio apartment, cycling to work every day, shopping at their neighbourhood market after work every day, or walking to a neighbourhood restaurant in the evenings.

"County" Haligonians living in their SFHs, commuting by car to their off peninsula jobs every day, and driving their SUV to Costco to shop every weekend, or using the SUV to take their kids to hockey practice at the rink.

I don't think this fits the hard data on construction. Most construction is multi-family and the ratio even in the suburbs is pretty high. There are apartment projects even out around Enfield. In the long run, I think areas like Fairview will look just like the peninsula. Inner Dartmouth will become more urban as well.

Prices have spiked and most younger people can't afford big houses. Household size has shrunk, for better or worse. I wonder if part of what's going on is that younger people just don't see the point in being far out if they still can't afford a large property and don't plan on having a large family. I remember being told for years that Millennials would be just like Baby Boomers at the same age in terms of characteristics like children and home ownership but that has not happened. I wonder if some people will still hold onto that when the Millennials are all 40-50 years old.

There's a lot of construction on the peninsula and the share by value is even higher. I'm not sure it's falling behind either in share of population or share of the tax base.

[MonctonRad]

What I'm getting at is more the mindset of peninsular Haligonians vs "mainland" Haligonians.

You cannot deny there is a dissonance there, based primarily on reliance on the automobiles, lifestyle, family size and type of employment.

[Nouvellecosse]

^^ Do you think this is more pronounced in Hfx than in other cities? To me the urban-suburban disconnect seems to be pretty common in many cities with a reasonably-sized inner city.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

^^ Do you think this is more pronounced in Hfx than in other cities? To me the urban-suburban disconnect seems to be pretty common in many cities with a reasonably-sized inner city.

It is pretty common, I agree, but it might be exacerbated in some cities just due to physical geography (Manhattan being on an island for example, Halifax being on a constricted peninsula with very limited road access).

[OldDartmouthMark]

I think people make too big of a deal about our divides (urban vs suburban, millennial vs boomer, car vs bicycle, etc.) and not enough about our similarities, FWIW. I don't think most people think in those terms, but I suppose it makes for interesting discussions on a messageboard.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I think people make too big of a deal about our divides (urban vs suburban, millennial vs boomer, car vs bicycle, etc.) and not enough about our similarities, FWIW. I don't think most people think in those terms, but I suppose it makes for interesting discussions on a messageboard.

I think it's objectively untrue for on vs off peninsula, at least today, unless I'm really out of touch. Are say the detached houses of Connolly Street or maybe the Hydrostone rowhouses really full of childless hipsters who get around exclusively by bike?

I do think there's a difference between a large house versus small apartment in terms of typical age, etc. But often there are ties between those households. You have the students living in an apartment and their parents are in a house for example. They're not really rivals or disconnected.

The "war" narrative gets really silly sometimes, the "war of the sexes" (who spend a lot of time trying to date each other and reproduce) being a particularly silly example. Just because we can pick out groups doesn't mean they are engaged in a zero-sum struggle for power.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think it's objectively untrue for on vs off peninsula, at least today, unless I'm really out of touch.

I'd agree. It's not as if the peninsula is surrounded by a moat and walls.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'd agree. It's not as if the peninsula is surrounded by a moat and walls.

With the NW Arm, there is almost a moat there.........

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'd agree. It's not as if the peninsula is surrounded by a moat and walls.

That's only because HRM Council hasn't gotten around to building tollgates at the Armdale Rotary, the end of Bayers Rd and the Windsor St Exchange as part of their war on the automobile. Give them time.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think it's objectively untrue for on vs off peninsula, at least today, unless I'm really out of touch. Are say the detached houses of Connolly Street or maybe the Hydrostone rowhouses really full of childless hipsters who get around exclusively by bike?

Exactly. Of course, there is a finite supply of family-sized new housing in the urban core. Right now we have the legacy housing stock, much of it good for families, and then we have new development, which mostly sized for small households of 1, 2, maybe 3 people.

We do need more development of larger and reasonably affordable dwelling units: bigger condos, townhouses, etc. Buildings that appeal to families that may not care about having a big yard, but need more space than a two-bedroom condo provides.

But the peninsula obviously does and will continue to have loads of families. If anything, the divide between the peninsula and the suburbs will be more about income and wealth than about families vs. singles.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by someone123

In Vancouver there is some explicit skyline consideration earlier in the planning process than project design review, maybe more analogous to the Centre Plan or HRM by Design phase. They deliberately allowed more height on some sites.

My biggest problem with the height limits in Halifax is that I feel like some of them constrain developers for no reason. People will argue that density needs to be limited but this is not a valid argument; developers can build to different heights with the same FAR.

I think some of the viewplanes are good, but ramparts is not worth it, particularly for Cogswell.

I'd also argue that the viewplane rules are too rigid. They should allow for some incursion into the "frustums" by decorative elements or reconstruction of historical elements, NFB being the prime example of that (Salter's Gate was another).

I think the ceiling height for Salter's Gate was reduced, and the copula was shrunk to work around viewplanes. Perhaps someone knows the actual details.

Salter's Gate -
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.6449755,...vyfoLRlaK_42FcoTAM9aQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Tabletop Downtown -
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.663007,-...7huqeTYRUGhPjsxBdkdJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Colin May]

Where are row houses under construction on the peninsula ?
Where are duplexes under construction on the peninsula ?
The only construction on the peninsula is condos and apartments and those who own a detached house on the peninsula are now in a very secure financial position and will have the upper hand in housing for decades to come. New school construction will be off peninsula and demands for parks and recreational facilities will increase. Last week several councillors expressed dismay that the needs of off peninsula residents are not being met and expressed concern about spending $57 million on rebuilding the Forum. They believe the peninsula is benefitting at the expense of the greater population living off peninsula.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Where are row houses under construction on the peninsula ?
Where are duplexes under construction on the peninsula ?
The only construction on the peninsula is condos and apartments

I'm not sure this formulation fully makes sense as a townhouses or even detached houses can be condominium. There are some townhouses that have been built lately like on Pepperell, and probably some apartments also have "townhouses" built in that have large square footage and a direct entrance from outside without shared hallways. Even if you build higher density you can give people a mix of units. But fundamentally we are talking about an inner city area that was built out long ago so I don't know why there'd be an expectation of a lot of low density housing construction. The land values are high so the economics are favourable to higher density construction. The high value construction results in a greater tax base.

The "off-peninsula has more people" formulation has always been a bit strange. In many cases you will travel across the peninsula (via bridges) to get from one off-peninsula area to another, and a lot of the regionally important stuff is de facto located on the peninsula and has no resulting residential population impact. It used to be common for suburban councillors to argue their area was no less regionally significant than a portion of the core of the metro area with a similar population but that's obviously not true in general.