The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

Hate to be a pessimist, but would be willing to bet that there will still be a big hole at the top of King Street this time next year. Any takers?

You have the SJ jitters. It’s still a go

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Commercial development to replace most of Park Plaza motel with a mixed, two storey commercial space in two phases.

https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6890653487764451328/

Interestingly, the old main office/current K's Cafe space is being renovated and expanded, and the rear, 24-unit motel structure will be renovated. I think there's a dozen units behind K's as well, no idea what is being done with these. Affordable housing? Long term stay? I know Irving still used this motel for shutdowns quite recently.

Definitely an upgrade on the old motel site.
I wonder what the distant future will look like for Rothesay Ave. Will there be a interchange to get on and off the highway both ways from Ashburn lake road. Getting rid of that double light sequence. Maybe line it up to Retail drive.

Does the intersection at Long and McQuade get a road to the highway for an interchange there? Feels like the bigger Saint John will get, the more tight and cramped driving on Rothesay Ave will be during any peak hours.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Definitely an upgrade on the old motel site.
I wonder what the distant future will look like for Rothesay Ave. Will there be a interchange to get on and off the highway both ways from Ashburn lake road. Getting rid of that double light sequence. Maybe line it up to Retail drive.

Does the intersection at Long and McQuade get a road to the highway for an interchange there? Feels like the bigger Saint John will get, the more tight and cramped driving on Rothesay Ave will be during any peak hours.

No- the planned connection to Ashburn Road is to *Retail Drive* over Rothesay Ave. Not likely any time soon I don't think. The Crossing development isn't going anywhere fast.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4277694/commercial-development-saint-john/

Saint John would be better served by a traditional, simple overpass across the highway from Ashburn Lake to where it used to connect to Ashburn, allowing for onramps and offramps on both sides. Replace the Ashburn Lake-Rothesay intersection with a roundabout or improved intersection that aligns Ashburn Lake and Retail.

This would take care of westbound traffic as well as northbound without needing to build something crazy. You'd probably have to upgrade the west end of Ashburn and Ashburn Lake too but road reconstruction is peanuts compared to overbuilding and making a second One Mile House, except overbuilt.

It would be much, much cheaper, less contingent on a megaproject, and would serve the same purpose as the link.

Like so: https://imgur.com/a/UEe4dzA

[JakeNB]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

You have the SJ jitters. It’s still a go

That may be, but waiting a few months after demo and site clearing, with no indication of any building permitting or other activity, is odd and leads me to believe that this project may not be as full steam ahead as you may think. Hope I'm wrong - would rather not be looking at that hole in 5 years time.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by JakeNB

That may be, but waiting a few months after demo and site clearing, with no indication of any building permitting or other activity, is odd and leads me to believe that this project may not be as full steam ahead as you may think. Hope I'm wrong - would rather not be looking at that hole in 5 years time.

They had something before Council or PAC in December but it might have just been a height variance. Not getting a great feeling here but we will see in the spring. Even Moncton has nothing going on. I'm surprised the Crown & Leinster project has been progressing, approval-wise, lately. Other than that it's pretty much only Fundy Quay in approvals.

I expect more as spring approaches. Not like Council does anything from 12/10 to 1/10 anyway haha.

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

No- the planned connection to Ashburn Road is to *Retail Drive* over Rothesay Ave. Not likely any time soon I don't think. The Crossing development isn't going anywhere fast.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4277694/commercial-development-saint-john/

Saint John would be better served by a traditional, simple overpass across the highway from Ashburn Lake to where it used to connect to Ashburn, allowing for onramps and offramps on both sides. Replace the Ashburn Lake-Rothesay intersection with a roundabout or improved intersection that aligns Ashburn Lake and Retail.

This would take care of westbound traffic as well as northbound without needing to build something crazy. You'd probably have to upgrade the west end of Ashburn and Ashburn Lake too but road reconstruction is peanuts compared to overbuilding and making a second One Mile House, except overbuilt.

It would be much, much cheaper, less contingent on a megaproject, and would serve the same purpose as the link.

Like so: https://imgur.com/a/UEe4dzA

Yeah a simple overpass that allows traffic from Ashburn lake to make the choice for north or south on the highway, Then connect to Foster Thurston would be ideal. I guess the hard part about have a big roundabout to connect to retail drive is you're asking at least
- Deluxe
- Meineke
- Snoozy
- Shred Guard

and a probably a few other businesses to relocate. Which may be a large road block to overcome?

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by bridgeoftea

Yeah a simple overpass that allows traffic from Ashburn lake to make the choice for north or south on the highway, Then connect to Foster Thurston would be ideal. I guess the hard part about have a big roundabout to connect to retail drive is you're asking at least
- Deluxe
- Meineke
- Snoozy
- Shred Guard

and a probably a few other businesses to relocate. Which may be a large road block to overcome?

You're fine if just take the mini home display lot and the Deluxe. You don't need a big one. Or just improve the signalling.

[cdnguys]

The developer of 99 King said from get go late 2021 start or Spring 2022

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

No- the planned connection to Ashburn Road is to *Retail Drive* over Rothesay Ave. Not likely any time soon I don't think. The Crossing development isn't going anywhere fast.]

Too bad. I'm just learning of this proposal now. They certainly did a very detail environmental assessment. I wonder what has caused it to stall? Change in government? Link: https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Depa...Registration1450/EIARegistration1450.pdf

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Too bad. I'm just learning of this proposal now. They certainly did a very detail environmental assessment. I wonder what has caused it to stall? Change in government? Link: https://www2.gnb.ca/content/dam/gnb/Depa...Registration1450/EIARegistration1450.pdf

The Crossing is a whack idea. It's in an extremely low lying area for the most part and requires a lot of public money to get going. And for what? Another set of gas stations, fast casual food, and retail? Textbook poorly planned sprawl, happy to let it die. Don't need another sprawl-type neighbourhood created on the water table when the city is stuck with Glen Falls already- and that's not even getting into Greenhead/Dominion Beach or South Bay, where at least only the roads flood.

I'm usually pro-everything but this seems like the kind of idea that should stay dead. All it would do is suck life away from the existing east side retail areas, at best.

Same with the housing component. There's so much available land to build on in existing, serviced areas over east it isn't even funny. We don't have the population to create entirely new artificial neighbourhoods on the city periphery.

[ColSJ]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The Crossing is a whack idea. It's in an extremely low lying area for the most part and requires a lot of public money to get going. And for what? Another set of gas stations, fast casual food, and retail? Textbook poorly planned sprawl, happy to let it die. Don't need another sprawl-type neighbourhood created on the water table when the city is stuck with Glen Falls already- and that's not even getting into Greenhead/Dominion Beach or South Bay, where at least only the roads flood.

I'm usually pro-everything but this seems like the kind of idea that should stay dead. All it would do is suck life away from the existing east side retail areas, at best.

Same with the housing component. There's so much available land to build on in existing, serviced areas over east it isn't even funny. We don't have the population to create entirely new artificial neighbourhoods on the city periphery.

100% nailed it.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by ColSJ

100% nailed it.

Thanks- I'm definitely a NINBY- Not in Nobody's Backyard.

Silver Falls Park, MacDonald St, between Ellerdale and Loch Lomond, between Forest Hills and Bon Accord, Heather Way, etc. All greenfield, serviced, would improve transit vs spreading it and the population it serves even thinner.

[cdnguys]

Finance Committee has an interesting item on docket - recommending council decommission the works garage / property on McIntosh street in Millidgeville and relocate to Rothesay Ave depot and locate fleet services to the transit centre. Goal of this is to sell and have the three lots developed by a “significant” development - although “not quantifiable at the moment”. Sounds like something is in the works and they are getting their ducks in a row

[IMG][/IMG]

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

The Crossing is a whack idea. Textbook poorly planned sprawl, happy to let it die. Don't need another sprawl-type neighbourhood....

Well, I wouldn't call this "sprawl" in the purely academic context. it is mixed use, includes higher-density residential, and includes public space that both enhances the watershed with parkspace but from what I can tell - helps to mitigate flooding in the broader area.

The reason I like it is that it can be a tool to bridge the gap between Saint John east and Rothesay/Quispam - where the real sprawl exists. Today, you have a gap between SJ East and Rothesay that has never fully taken-off development wise. Everything has been focused further and further east of Rothesay. This interchange and the destination development, could help fill that gap and spur more development gravitating towards this new "hub", from both directions.

This could help spur more in-city taxable residential development in the east end while potentially shifting the existing sprawl-growth on the east of Quispamsis to West of Rothesay, which would be better than what exists today.

[OliverD]

Looks quite sprawl-y to me.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Looks quite sprawl-y to me.

Technically, that is mixed-use low and medium-density commercial with medium density residential in a confined zone incorporating public park space.

This is sprawl:



I mean, it isn't perfect but my argument is that it isn't the WORST development out there and could help bring development north of the throughway and promote more medium-density residential development within the city as opposed to further purely residential sprawl out near Hampton.

I'd argue it's mixed use is more appealing than a cluster of of 3-4 story apartment buildings in the middle of nowhere with nothing walkable in terms of commercial services. At least this tries to accomplish more than some of the projects being developed elsewhere like in Millidgeville, Fredericton, or Moncton. And a far better plan than Dartmouth Crossing. #thehorror

[bridgeoftea]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Well, I wouldn't call this "sprawl" in the purely academic context. it is mixed use, includes higher-density residential, and includes public space that both enhances the watershed with parkspace but from what I can tell - helps to mitigate flooding in the broader area.

The reason I like it is that it can be a tool to bridge the gap between Saint John east and Rothesay/Quispam - where the real sprawl exists. Today, you have a gap between SJ East and Rothesay that has never fully taken-off development wise. Everything has been focused further and further east of Rothesay. This interchange and the destination development, could help fill that gap and spur more development gravitating towards this new "hub", from both directions.

This could help spur more in-city taxable residential development in the east end while potentially shifting the existing sprawl-growth on the east of Quispamsis to West of Rothesay, which would be better than what exists today.

This is sort of how I feel.

In the positive view it would add more housing, it would allow housing to have amentias that are walkable too. It could offer up more opportunities with Transit. Add a little hub that includes a few express busses to the west side and uptown.
It would also close the gap towards Rothesay/Quispamsis. Which I hope in the future becomes closer and closer.

Negatives for me is, more stale, big box stores. If you're putting in a Wal-Mart and a Canadian tire. How does that affect the east side ones that are only about a 5 minute drive away. What "big box stores" is the East Side currently lacking right now? Plus with the Mall losing tenants it feels as if you'd spread everything too thinly and be left with more empty stores.

Just my thoughts. I'm glad it's not going through. Much rather the focus be on other places right now.

[adamuptownsj]

I would absolutely consider it sprawl. Look where it is! Potentially a couple thousand people, all renting, off the highway in a swamp, directly across from the city's main retail area, with a REQUIRED complicated expensive overpass to even start? No thanks. Everything proposed here can happen in areas a little less waterlogged that don

Any talk of this being 'walkable' is pure marketing. This would be a non-neighbourhood. What are you gonna do, walk to the Needs for a bag of chips and walk back to your apartment?

You're completely right on the 'spreading thin' aspect. Retail is not doing so hot. If they don't get tenants you're stuck with apartment buildings in the woods over empty podiums. If this same development was proposed, say, on the hillside above and south of McAllister, it would be great. Or at the end of Highland Road in the north end- Millidgeville could actually benefit from a dense mixed-use project.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Technically, that is mixed-use low and medium-density commercial with medium density residential in a confined zone incorporating public park space.

I mean, it isn't perfect but my argument is that it isn't the WORST development out there and could help bring development north of the throughway and promote more medium-density residential development within the city as opposed to further purely residential sprawl out near Hampton.

I'd argue it's mixed use is more appealing than a cluster of of 3-4 story apartment buildings in the middle of nowhere with nothing walkable in terms of commercial services. At least this tries to accomplish more than some of the projects being developed elsewhere like in Millidgeville, Fredericton, or Moncton. And a far better plan than Dartmouth Crossing. #thehorror

Is it really "mixed use" if the cluster of commercial development is completely segregated from the cluster of apartment buildings?

It also doesn't look to be all that walkable, from the perspective of walking being desirable rather than just theoretical.

To me this looks like a typical suburban development minus the single family homes but with at least some effort made to not have all parking lots fronting on the streets. But based on that site plan there's no way this is going to be a vibrant, street-oriented neighbourhood.

[Pugsley]

Well, a developer like this is going to want to build this concept next to Route 1 wherever they decide to land. It is a destination development and the hospitality element in their plans is geared towards that traffic source. So the question boils down to where would they put it and what would that mean for Saint John?

It won't be on the west side as the majority of the population lives east of the river. So it would be further east along Route 1 before being anywhere else in Saint John proper.

If it goes to Quispamsis further east along Route 1, then you can kiss any further development in this area goodbye and more sprawl happening out in KV. They'd get the tax revenue, population growth, and create even more suburban traffic coming into SJ's already strained and under-funded road infrastructure. It would move the largest secondary commercial node for entertainment and shopping further from Uptown, making it even harder to justify a "trip into town" for those living out in the eastern suburbs and further shifting big-box retailing away from those who live on the peninsula. In essence, we'd be back to the hollowing out of Saint John we saw in the 70s-90s with McAllister Place, but now even broader.

So, these developments can be quickly labelled as "sprawly" and "ill-concieved" and "bad", but sometimes the alternatives could be far-worse. I think SJ has a very difficult challenge ahead given the massive commuter shed and barren development gap between Uptown and the KV suburbs. If nothing major happens here to make it a priority for growth, regardless of how many big-box stores it might attract, it will only get worse if it happens elsewhere.