New Vancouver Art Gallery | Proposed

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by mukmuk64

The 2019 design, reverting to safe, conservative, glass was such a step backward. Bullet dodged here.

Absolutely. 100%. It got rid of the best part of the design.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The copper coloured woven metal facade should look interesting.
But I suspect that over such a large surface, it may just look like a textured blank wall (for those that don't like blank walls).

My biggest complaint is still the inward facing treatment at grade where the courtyard, while accessible to the public, reads more like a private space rather than a public square. It's basically a walled square.

Yea agreed. Apparently the at-grade treatment was a recommendation from Audain. Really surprised, it seems like the wrong direction.

[Migrant_Coconut]

At least the vertical wood's gone. That was stupid.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

The Calgary library was $245m for 240,000sf. Seems normal. Not sure what additional spaces it had though, but it certainly wasn't as tall and no daycare, art studios, preschool, climate controlled storage.

To be clear, I wasn't insinuating something nefarious was afoot.

More just a genuine shock of how out of control construction costs are if this costs $400 million to put up.

The building’s total floor area is now slightly larger than what was previously planned — now 330,000 sq ft, up by about 20,000 sq ft. It will include over 80,000 sq ft of exhibition space, more than doubling the existing exhibition space at the VAG’s presence in the former courthouse building at Robson Square.

$400,000,000 / 330,000 = $1212 sq/ft

So it costs $1200 a square foot to put up square boxes with no land costs in Vancouver?

This seems, uhh, expensive.

[urbanight93]

I really like this. It's unconventional in terms of shapes and massing yet doesn't look like it's trying too hard (ahem AGO, new Edmonton library ahem...). The material and colour palette is exactly what the City needs.

I'd like to see more renders of the street level to comment but i don't mind a one storey pavilion wrapping around the block, if only for variety in built forms. The podium+tower typology is very common and though it has its benefits, I'm thinking creating something unique here is the point. A more open plaza can work too but along Georgia there it may feel windswept.

I particularly love the outdoor patio spaces the design facilitates. Perfect for events and outdoor exhibits and reminds me of the Whitney in NYC.

[TwoFace]

Originally Posted by rofina

$400,000,000 / 330,000 = $1212 sq/ft

So it costs $1200 a square foot to put up square boxes with no land costs in Vancouver?

This seems, uhh, expensive.

This job will be an epic fleecing of the purse
https://www.statista.com/statistics/973447/construction-costs-vancouver-canada-by-type/
https://stevesaretsky.com/vancouver-construction-costs-are-the-highest-in-canada/

[bb1510]

Originally Posted by rofina

To be clear, I wasn't insinuating something nefarious was afoot.

More just a genuine shock of how out of control construction costs are if this costs $400 million to put up.



$400,000,000 / 330,000 = $1212 sq/ft

So it costs $1200 a square foot to put up square boxes with no land costs in Vancouver?

This seems, uhh, expensive.

It's actually not that unreasonable if you break down numbers.


A lot of the starchitect towers being built here are essentially 650-950 psf excluding land costs and these are towers meant to be built at the lowest cost possible for the marketable product, not a long term asset like an AAA office. Alberni by Kengo Kuma is at 850 psf


A custom, high end home with a wood frame on the west side (not a builder spec 'luxury' home) now goes for in excess of 1000 psf in construction costs (4687 Marguerite St) as do other high end strata full gut renos (300/400 duplex combo at 1919 Beach Ave and 1100-1919 Beach Ave)


A custom home with full concrete construction, commercial curtain wall with glass mullions and silicone joints by Russell Hollingsworth (4707 Belmont Ave, Chip Wilson's house and others) run in excess of 2000 psf in pure construction costs.


If you look at other pure residential luxury towers being built around the world, the costs here pale in comparison. 220 Central Park south by Robert Stern was built at a cost at 3500 psf usd without land and 111 West 57th Street by SHoP was around 2900 psf usd

[rofina]

Originally Posted by bb1510

It's actually not that unreasonable if you break down numbers.


A lot of the starchitect towers being built here are essentially 650-950 psf excluding land costs and these are towers meant to be built at the lowest cost possible for the marketable product, not a long term asset like an AAA office. Alberni by Kengo Kuma is at 850 psf


A custom, high end home with a wood frame on the west side (not a builder spec 'luxury' home) now goes for in excess of 1000 psf in construction costs (4687 Marguerite St) as do other high end strata full gut renos (300/400 duplex combo at 1919 Beach Ave and 1100-1919 Beach Ave)


A custom home with full concrete construction, commercial curtain wall with glass mullions and silicone joints by Russell Hollingsworth (4707 Belmont Ave, Chip Wilson's house and others) run in excess of 2000 psf in pure construction costs.


If you look at other pure residential luxury towers being built around the world, the costs here pale in comparison. 220 Central Park south by Robert Stern was built at a cost at 3500 psf usd without land and 111 West 57th Street by SHoP was around 2900 psf usd

That's so crazy.

Last time I was intimate with luxury home numbers it was on the North Shore about 12 years ago, and the cost for luxury was just starting to touch $400 a foot, more like $370.

Now were talking closer to $1000.

That is some intense price escalation.

Carpenters then were making $33-35. What's the rate now? $45?

Where is the near tripling in cost coming from?

Also - appreciate your input as always, its great to have your perspectives.

[bb1510]

Originally Posted by rofina

That's so crazy.

Last time I was intimate with luxury home numbers it was on the North Shore about 12 years ago, and the cost for luxury was just starting to touch $400 a foot, more like $370.

Now were talking closer to $1000.

That is some intense price escalation.

Carpenters then were making $33-35. What's the rate now? $45?

Where is the near tripling in cost coming from?

Also - appreciate your input as always, its great to have your perspectives.

You can still get by a lower number at between 500-750 for something without as many bells and whistles or even lower if you want builder spec quality even though on paper you still have "high end finishes" like subzero, wolf, miele etc but once you start wanting a truly custom and high end finishes and detailing, the prices escalate.

I think part of the price escalation in addition to construction, labour, material, and inflation is the change in expectations and accepted level of finishes within a price range. When the final market value of the property doubles or triples compared to say a decade ago, the level of finishes and expectations for them also increase.

For example, a basic Nanawall or eclipse door system was considered high end many years ago but owners in that category now want a large format, zero threshold pocket door system from similar to a Nanawall Cero or even a motorized version instead. They want better windows and may go for commercial level glazing. 24"x24" stone tiles were considered luxurious a decade ago but now they desire stone slabs on the floor which were once meant for a counter or wall application. It's also not difficult to spend over 7 figures for a more complex home automation system from Crestron with 2 dozen audio zones and full AV integration with landscaping, lighting, multiple scenes etc. Maybe trimless potlights, architectural reveal details, invisible speakers from Sonance, etc. They might also want branded millwork for kitchens like Bulthaup, Boffi, Arclinea and wardrobes from Poliform or Porro. Everything adds up really quickly

And dont forget the furniture budget

[Klazu]

I was recently wondering what is taking so long with this one, so nice to see it moving forward. The latest design is better, but still not very special. The new building replacing the heat plant next door will be more special.

Great to see two towers still being planned to replace the current Crime Hives next door. Without that, it is going to be quintessential Vancouver with drug addicts hanging on premises.

[LeftCoaster]

Just going to weigh in on the costs here, $1,200 per foot is going to be a tight budget, not a fleecing.

Comparing something like this to a residential point tower, even a more high end one, is like apples and oranges. There is nothing repetitive here, no repeating floor plates, no modular envelope systems, large ceiling heights and open spaces, major spans of unsupported floor plates, and more or less everything is bespoke.

Buildings like this, airports, convention centres are very expensive due to the above reasons, so I'd expect this cost to go up not down.

Also my $0.02, I like the direction this is taking, especially if they chose a high quality metal cladding product. This could be a very unique, destination building.

[officedweller]

Trying to drum up some publicity I think.
Front page story in today's Vancouver Sun print edition.

Indigenous blankets inspire weave-like facade of new Vancouver Art Gallery
https://vancouversun.com/entertainment/l...like-facade-of-new-vancouver-art-gallery

[djmk]

weaves must be the in thing now. I believe polygon in North Van has a metallic weave

[madog222]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Trying to drum up some publicity I think.
Front page story in today's Vancouver Sun print edition.

Indigenous blankets inspire weave-like facade of new Vancouver Art Gallery
https://vancouversun.com/entertainment/l...like-facade-of-new-vancouver-art-gallery

From the article:

If fundraising continues as planned, the Vancouver Art Gallery hopes to start construction in November 2022. The redesigned building has been expanded by 30,000 sq. ft. to 330,000 sq. ft. and now includes an early education centre, accommodation for visiting artists, and a community space for Indigenous programs and celebrations.

Public and private pledges and donations for the new building have reached $240 million for the $400-million project. The VAG hopes to raise another $80 million from private donations and $80 million from government and community sources.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Trying to drum up some publicity I think.
Front page story in today's Vancouver Sun print edition.

Indigenous blankets inspire weave-like facade of new Vancouver Art Gallery
https://vancouversun.com/entertainment/l...like-facade-of-new-vancouver-art-gallery

Or it could be inspired by the Victrorian-era colonist picnic basket so ubiquitous in the spring and summer days at "European-only" picnic spots all over town.

I wonder what would happen if this were to used for the Art Gallery article instead.

Seriously, I don't get why everything has to be spun to become "indigenous".

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Vin

Or it could be inspired by the Victrorian-era colonist picnic basket so ubiquitous in the spring and summer days at "European-only" picnic spots all over town.

I wonder what would happen if this were to used for the Art Gallery article instead.

Seriously, I don't get why everything has to be spun to become "indigenous".

Yeah, I've wondered how basket weaving seems to have become the exclusive domain of indigenous peoples.

Basket Case: 7 Bold Woven Façades
https://architizer.com/blog/inspiration/collections/woven-facades/

Hunter Douglas Aura Weave
http://facadesign.us/blog/2012/05/01/hunter-douglas-aura-weave/

Sergei Tchoban uses Corten steel to create huge basket-weave facade
https://www.dezeen.com/2021/08/31/sergei...cade/?li_source=LI&li_medium=rhs_block_1

Weaving Architectural Façades
http://papers.cumincad.org/data/works/att/cf2019_069.pdf

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by Vin

Seriously, I don't get why everything has to be spun to become "indigenous".

Well, we live in a world where repairing Seawall requires consultation with the First Nations, so...

I genuinely wonder how much staff the indigenous bands must have on their payroll to just manage all these requests for consultation on everything!! It won't be long before having a birthday party at one of the parks will require consulting a band!

When everything is trying to be special, nothing truly is special.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Klazu

When everything is trying to be special, nothing truly is special.

That's the whole point: it isn't supposed to be special. Indigenous consultations acknowledge two things:

1. All of Canada is built on traditional lands of various indigenous tribes; land that was taken through force, coercion, or deceptive negotiations. The least we can do is give them a voice in how we treat that land.
2. Indigenous tribes have centuries of knowledge about the natural world including forest and wildlife management, and also have oral traditions that have preserved history long forgotten or never known by non-indigenous peoples.

Now whether many of these consultations are simply virtue signaling is debatable, but I would think we would find the perspective of someone whose ancestors lived in harmony with nature for centuries valuable when designing the seawall or constructing buildings that are supposed to tell the history of our region.

[idunno]

^^^

[djmk]

If consulting makes someone happy and feel valued, who am I to complain?

Just do it. Its who we are