West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Acajack]

How can Le Plateau have almost no trips? It has more people than Riverside South and will probably have 30-35,000 people or more in 2031.

There is something wrong with that map.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How can Le Plateau have almost no trips? It has more people than Riverside South and will probably have 30-35,000 people or more in 2031.

There is something wrong with that map.

It's a 14 year old map that wasn't able to take a multi-billion dollar transit infrastructure project into consideration, and it only looks at trips headed towards Ottawa, not within Gatineau.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Acajack

How can Le Plateau have almost no trips? It has more people than Riverside South and will probably have 30-35,000 people or more in 2031.

There is something wrong with that map.

The study was published in April 2008. A lot can change in 14 years. Also, it was commissioned by the City of Ottawa, so I'm not sure how accurate the local Gatineau forecasts are.

Edit: Ninjaed by OCCheetos.

[Nowhere]

Yeah, I know it's an old map, but still, a population of 30 - 35 000 would be less than a third of the 110 000 forecasted for Barrhaven in 2031, so this map could totally be right, looking at the ridership they forecast between Barrhaven and the Nepean Sportsplex.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

Yeah, I know it's an old map, but still, a population of 30 - 35 000 would be less than a third of the 110 000 forecasted for Barrhaven in 2031, so this map could totally be right, looking at the ridership they forecast between Barrhaven and the Nepean Sportsplex.

In that study, employment in Barrhaven was projected to grow by 471% and, but the "Inner Area" by only 18%. This means that a lot of people living in Barrhaven wouldn't need to use transit between Barrhaven and the Nepean Sportsplex to get to work as they would be staying in Barrhaven. Not sure how much employment there is expected to be in Le Plateau (that was out of scope for the study), but I don't think it is expected to be that high, so most will likely need to commute to Hull or Ottawa (of which the former is also out of scope for the study).

[Harley613]

The Plateau is growing like crazy. BRT wouldn't work here, it's not laid out for it, and the new residential here is higher density than any other suburban area in the region. A tram is a perfect solution for the neighbourhood.

[S613]

It will go ahead. Fergus has done amazingly on this file. The feds are eager to have this project underway. I believe the city understands this clearly and rightfully is attempting to push the buck.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by Harley613

The Plateau is growing like crazy. BRT wouldn't work here, it's not laid out for it, and the new residential here is higher density than any other suburban area in the region. A tram is a perfect solution for the neighbourhood.

It's unfortunate that the lowest density section of Le Plateau is closest to St Raymond, hopefully they can build over the Smart Centre parking lots in the future to add density on the west end of the corridor.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Harley613

The Plateau is growing like crazy. BRT wouldn't work here, it's not laid out for it, and the new residential here is higher density than any other suburban area in the region. A tram is a perfect solution for the neighbourhood.

Really? I'm all for the tram, but I would think that the curvilinear streets would be better suited for buses than a tram. I don't see why frequent bus service with a dedicated ROW and signalization priority couldn't be effective.

[J.OT13]

Re: comparing Barrhaven to Le Plateau. Barrhaven is getting a branch of a light-metro, capacity of 12,500 phpd. Plateau could be getting a branch of a tram, capacity of maybe 6,000 phpd. So yes, Plateau has fewer people (though far denser), but it's getting half the capacity.

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I don't understand why they want to go south of l'Université du Québec however. Not only the impact on greenspace will be significant, but the trams would also avoid a whole neighborhood of apartment buildings north of l'UQO. Sure, a few expropriations would be needed to run the trains on Alexandre-Taché, but still far from the 120 homes that would be torn down for the Barrhaven LRT. I'm sure that service interruptions from people crashing their cars in the trains will be frequent as well if this get built.

By having it go behind UQO, it avoids conflict with cars, traffic lights and other issues. Speed could be increased through that section, which will be desperately needed on a system that will have an overall pretty slow average speed.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Really? I'm all for the tram, but I would think that the curvilinear streets would be better suited for buses than a tram. I don't see why frequent bus service with a dedicated ROW and signalization priority couldn't be effective.

For one, there aren't many signals to prioritize. The major intersections along Boul. du Plateau are roundabouts.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Horus

For one, there aren't many signals to prioritize. The major intersections along Boul. du Plateau are roundabouts.

The plan is to remove the roundabouts.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I don't understand why they want to go south of l'Université du Québec however. Not only the impact on greenspace will be significant, but the trams would also avoid a whole neighborhood of apartment buildings north of l'UQO. Sure, a few expropriations would be needed to run the trains on Alexandre-Taché, but still far from the 120 homes that would be torn down for the Barrhaven LRT. I'm sure that service interruptions from people crashing their cars in the trains will be frequent as well if this get built.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

By having it go behind UQO, it avoids conflict with cars, traffic lights and other issues. Speed could be increased through that section, which will be desperately needed on a system that will have an overall pretty slow average speed.

In addition, there is really nothing to expropriate in that section between those UQO-district apartment buildings and the cemetery on the south side of Taché that already abuts right against the street. That area was already a ridiculous bottleneck, in part due to the volume of buses and the stop directly in front of UQO. The segment of Taché between PdC and Saint-Joseph was almost always a disaster in the evening rush.
The desired route passing south of the UQO campus is the right decision.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The plan is to remove the roundabouts.

The day they start digging them out will be one of the happiest days of my life. My last two sets of tires had a noticeable band of wear on the two right side tires from those traffic circles when I disposed of them. I hit all five on Boul. du Plateau and all three on Allumettieres to and from Ottawa daily. They also make me nauseous every time I leave and arrive home.

Yes, I know I should rotate my tires more often

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The plan is to remove the roundabouts.

Why? It isn't difficult to have trams travel through the centre of a roundabout. While it is true that it creates a bit of congestion when the gates go down, it is only for a few seconds. It is a lot less congestion than the alternatives create.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by Horus

In addition, there is really nothing to expropriate in that section between those UQO-district apartment buildings and the cemetery on the south side of Taché that already abuts right against the street. That area was already a ridiculous bottleneck, in part due to the volume of buses and the stop directly in front of UQO. The segment of Taché between PdC and Saint-Joseph was almost always a disaster in the evening rush.
The desired route passing south of the UQO campus is the right decision.

Whether we build the streetcar south or north of l'UQO, would any bus still stop in front of l'UQO if the tram was built ? Expect for a few buses that would stop at the Rapibus station east of the university, which wouldn't affect the trains, my guess is that the trains would fully replace the buses that run in front of l'UQO right now.

Sure, Alexandre-Taché would need to be widened to 4 lanes, but I think it's worth it to serve all the apartment buildings in the area and to avoid major impacts on green space. My guess is that the NCC will ask the same thing, since they own the Parc des Portageurs.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Why? It isn't difficult to have trams travel through the centre of a roundabout. While it is true that it creates a bit of congestion when the gates go down, it is only for a few seconds. It is a lot less congestion than the alternatives create.

Considering the way most people drive, I think we should avoid such intersections. Also, such roundabouts would be quite hostile to pedestrians and cyclists.

[Nowhere]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Re: comparing Barrhaven to Le Plateau. Barrhaven is getting a branch of a light-metro, capacity of 12,500 phpd. Plateau could be getting a branch of a tram, capacity of maybe 6,000 phpd. So yes, Plateau has fewer people (though far denser), but it's getting half the capacity.

I believe that building an elevated 12 500 PPHPD light metro to Barrhaven is overkill as well for now. Maybe it's going to be needed eventually, but for now, the transitway did the job pre-covid and if remote working and job automation become widespread for office jobs, then we might not reach the pre-covid rush hour ridership anytime soon, or ever.

If BRT did the job for Barrhaven before the pandemic, then it should do the job for a far smaller neighbourhood in a world where the traditional 9-5 office job will be less common. The eastern part of Gatineau is where most of the ridership is from. Trains should serve the busiest corridors and BRT the less busy corridors, not the other way around.

[OTSkyline]

But is it a chicken and egg situation? Does most transit trips in Gatineau go from the east-end to Hull right now because that's where the Rapibus currently exists?

Would similar transit usage exist today if a similar Rapibus route serve the west-end?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

I believe that building an elevated 12 500 PPHPD light metro to Barrhaven is overkill as well for now. Maybe it's going to be needed eventually, but for now, the transitway did the job pre-covid and if remote working and job automation become widespread for office jobs, then we might not reach the pre-covid rush hour ridership anytime soon, or ever.

If BRT did the job for Barrhaven before the pandemic, then it should do the job for a far smaller neighbourhood in a world where the traditional 9-5 office job will be less common. The eastern part of Gatineau is where most of the ridership is from. Trains should serve the busiest corridors and BRT the less busy corridors, not the other way around.

I agree that Stage 3 to Barrhaven is overkill. Terminating at Fallowfiled would likely suffice.

That said, it's not possible to build a fully grade separated BRT, as Barrhaven has, to Le Plateau or Aylmer as there is no obvious corridor, therefore, a higher capacity tram seems to be the solution. Worth noting that Le Plateau has a higher overall density than Barrhaven.

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

But is it a chicken and egg situation? Does most transit trips in Gatineau go from the east-end to Hull right now because that's where the Rapibus currently exists?

Would similar transit usage exist today if a similar Rapibus route serve the west-end?

That does seem to be the case when looking at the map. The rapid transit corridors (rail or BRT) have the highest ridership because they are there. Everyone is funneled to those corridors even though the population density along those corridors is quite low for the most part.