Building LeBreton Flats - Master Planning

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Admiral Nelson

There's a social equity dimension when public money is used to build professional sports arenas. Money sunk into these venues can't also be used to tackle longstanding social issues (like homelessness) that governments claim not to have the resources to fix.

To turn around and find hundreds of millions of dollars to subsidize a team of millionaire players and its billionaire owner would rub many the wrong way. It's upper middle class entertainment, not a general public interest being served. There are certainly more cost-effective ways of stimulating the economy.

I understand the sentiment, but same could be said for funding for the arts, culture, museums, CBC, etc. Money used for the Rideau Centre, convention centre, Landsdowne, new library, NAC, National Gallery, etc. could all have gone to homelessness.

[AuxTown]

I don't understand how people can't just see this as a dollars and cents investment issue??

Ottawa without the Senators has a significant reduction in tourism, hotel spending, and broader recognition as a major city. And to suggest that we can't lose our team I think is quite short-sighted. I don't care how they structure the deal but we stand to gain more from a downtown arena than any 10s of millions of dollars that could be contributed by local, provincial, and federal governments.

[YOWflier]

No offence to the Admiral personally, but it’s that exact type of sentiment that results in “nationally significant” (copyright Uhuniau) grass, dirt, and tumbleweeds.

Maybe they should just auction off the land and put the money in general revenues because it’s evident there will be no consensus on what “the public” should invest in here. Public money WILL be needed to get an “event center”. This taxpayer is fine with it.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I don't understand how people can't just see this as a dollars and cents investment issue??

Ottawa without the Senators has a significant reduction in tourism, hotel spending, and broader recognition as a major city. And to suggest that we can't lose our team I think is quite short-sighted. I don't care how they structure the deal but we stand to gain more from a downtown arena than any 10s of millions of dollars that could be contributed by local, provincial, and federal governments.

Completely agree. It’s not a zero sum game. Amenities that make the city more attractive ultimately mean more money for social programs. On the other hand, cities that don’t keep up with building amenities rarely find themselves in a stronger financial position to expand programs.

I also don’t think it’s fair to call the arena “upper middle class entertainment”, given the range of events it would host and the proportion of the population that will find themselves in there for one reason or another. And you can get a Sens ticket for about $25, so this idea that it is only for big income folks is a bit off.

[Sauvanto]

Ok so lets take a step back here; do we have data on what percent of the population even wants a new arena downtown? I'd be really curious to see the number of people who actually care about the Sens, because I have a feeling it's really not that much out of the million people who live here... My second point is if it's so damn hard to get private funding for the arena, is that not a sign that they think the project is no financially viable and it's not just worth the risk? All that to say, although it would be awesome to have the arena downtown, and it's ridiculous that the capital of Canada doesn't have an arena accessible to its resident, I don't want to fund this arena

[RuralCitizen]

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Ok so lets take a step back here; do we have data on what percent of the population even wants a new arena downtown? I'd be really curious to see the number of people who actually care about the Sens, because I have a feeling it's really not that much out of the million people who live here... My second point is if it's so damn hard to get private funding for the arena, is that not a sign that they think the project is no financially viable and it's not just worth the risk? All that to say, although it would be awesome to have the arena downtown, and it's ridiculous that the capital of Canada doesn't have an arena accessible to its resident, I don't want to fund this arena

Yeah, but this shouldn't be all about the Sens. It would also be a major piece of infrastructure that will allow for accessible entertainment events such as big concerts. I personally don't watch hockey, could someone tell me how many days throughout the year does the Sens actually use the ice?

Perhaps the city should do a referendum about the question on the ballot of the next municipal election. "Should a Stadium/Concert venue be built as part of the Lebretons flats redevelopment? YES/NO"

Simple as that.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

Yeah, but this shouldn't be all about the Sens. It would also be a major piece of infrastructure that will allow for accessible entertainment events such as big concerts. I personally don't watch hockey, could someone tell me how many days throughout the year does the Sens actually use the ice?

Combining preseason, season, and playoffs, say 50 dates for games in total. Add-in potential for practices and other uses and it would be just above that. I can't remember where the Sens practice (whether at the rink or at Sensplex) but those would be additional dates.

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

Perhaps the city should do a referendum about the question on the ballot of the next municipal election. "Should a Stadium/Concert venue be built as part of the Lebretons flats redevelopment? YES/NO"

Simple as that.

So we can have a 'no' vote with 30% turnout? If you asked the public about everything then nothing would ever get built.

[RuralCitizen]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Combining preseason, season, and playoffs, say 50 dates for games in total. Add-in potential for practices and other uses and it would be just above that. I can't remember where the Sens practice (whether at the rink or at Sensplex) but those would be additional dates.


So we can have a 'no' vote with 30% turnout? If you asked the public about everything then nothing would ever get built.

We still have people run our cities, provinces and country with low turn out. If you are invalidating a ballot question, might as well invalidate a government for the same reason.

Last federal election we had 62% turn out, and liberals are running the country with 32.6% of the popular vote. so basically 20% of all eligible population decided that Liberals were running the country. You call that fair representation for decision making? Tell that to the remaining 80%.

At least with a ballot question, the population is asked directly, and if you don't vote, you can't complain for voting result. I'm not saying we should ask the citizens for everything. But this is a major piece of the city in the core. I think it is significant enough to ask the question.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Ok so lets take a step back here; do we have data on what percent of the population even wants a new arena downtown? I'd be really curious to see the number of people who actually care about the Sens, because I have a feeling it's really not that much out of the million people who live here... My second point is if it's so damn hard to get private funding for the arena, is that not a sign that they think the project is no financially viable and it's not just worth the risk? All that to say, although it would be awesome to have the arena downtown, and it's ridiculous that the capital of Canada doesn't have an arena accessible to its resident, I don't want to fund this arena

I'm not sure would consider "not that much" out of a million people, or what you think would be of interest to a bigger slice of the population. I've got to think that the arena would be by far the most attended venue in Ottawa over the course of a year, with the Sens being the largest chunk of that attendance number and mostly comprised of local people.

They are at bit of a low point attendance-wise, but in an average year they would draw around 700,000 people, plus whatever they draw in any playoff games (another 170k in their last run in 2017). Other than a couple of the national museums that draw a lot of tourists, I'm not sure what else in Ottawa would be in that category year after year.

This poll is a bit old (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ot...games-near-downtown-poll-finds-1.3248128), but it found that 55% of people in the region (including Gatineau) wanted a new arena downtown. That's a pretty substantial number.

The Sens would use the arena between 50 and 60 nights per year, so that leaves the bulk of the nights for concerts, conventions and other events. For me, the arena is a public amenity that benefits all of the people in the region, which justifies at least some public involvement.

[RuralCitizen]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm not sure would consider "not that much" out of a million people, or what you think would be of interest to a bigger slice of the population. I've got to think that the arena would be by far the most attended venue in Ottawa over the course of a year, with the Sens being the largest chunk of that attendance number and mostly comprised of local people.

They are at bit of a low point attendance-wise, but in an average year they would draw around 700,000 people, plus whatever they draw in any playoff games (another 170k in their last run in 2017). Other than a couple of the national museums that draw a lot of tourists, I'm not sure what else in Ottawa would be in that category year after year.

This poll is a bit old (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ot...games-near-downtown-poll-finds-1.3248128), but it found that 55% of people in the region (including Gatineau) wanted a new arena downtown. That's a pretty substantial number.

The Sens would use the arena between 50 and 60 nights per year, so that leaves the bulk of the nights for concerts, conventions and other events. For me, the arena is a public amenity that benefits all of the people in the region, which justifies at least some public involvement.

Couldn't it be built jointly with the city, where every year the "investors" buy back a portion of the city owned portion? But every year profits from operation is distributed proportionally to ownership? So basically a City mortgage where the interest rate is the actual profit.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by RuralCitizen

Couldn't it be built jointly with the city, where every year the "investors" buy back a portion of the city owned portion? But every year profits from operation is distributed proportionally to ownership? So basically a City mortgage where the interest rate is the actual profit.

I don't know how much interest the City has in getting into an arrangement based on profit, but you never know. I think more likely the City contribution would be in the form of tax increment financing or a ticket surcharge like in Edmonton. Possibly a loan or loan guarantee that gives preferable interest rates.

If the City is involved in financing, I'd like to see them retain a share of ownership so there is a clear public asset and they can retain some influence over how it is used.

[J.OT13]

Would be interesting is this became an election issue in 2022. Though it might be too late by then based on the NCC's puzzling timeline.

[SL123]

According to this OP-Ed Written by Tobi Nussbaum, On top of the Library Parcel and the major attraction parcel, the Flat District Parcel will also come to market this year. Not the phasing approach I thought it would be, I was expecting years between phases lol.

Over the course of the coming year, we will see progress on three major development initiatives. Early this year, in partnership with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, we will announce the proponent selected to deliver affordable rental housing in a sustainable mixed-use development adjacent to the future Library and Archives Canada and City of Ottawa Central Public Library, east of Booth Street. Second, we look forward to reviewing responses to our request for expressions of interest in two parcels within LeBreton Flats, which we hope will become exciting attractions within the project. Third, the next development phase within the Master Concept Plan — the Flats District between Wellington and the aqueducts — will also come to market this year, providing further impetus toward the transformation of the site.

Other nice info on various projects in this Op-Ed too, worth a read

https://ncc-ccn.gc.ca/news/a-host-of-ncc-projects-set-to-entice-ottawans-to-get-some-fresh-air

[J.OT13]

What weird phasing. All over the place. Starting with the Library parcel made sense. Bad timing for the attraction piece. I was expecting maybe they would put up individual blocks from for the rest of LeBreton, not district by district.

[DTcrawler]

In the entire near-century that the Flats have sat empty, the NCC has chosen the absolute worst three month period to try and secure a major attraction, apart from maybe 2008. I just can't imagine we're going to see the full breadth of possibilities, unless there is already something in the works behind the scenes with the Sens and the outcome of the "competition" has already been decided, in which case I would selfishly oblige.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by SL123

According to this OP-Ed Written by Tobi Nussbaum, On top of the Library Parcel and the major attraction parcel, the Flat District Parcel will also come to market this year. Not the phasing approach I thought it would be, I was expecting years between phases lol.



Other nice info on various projects in this Op-Ed too, worth a read

https://ncc-ccn.gc.ca/news/a-host-of-ncc-projects-set-to-entice-ottawans-to-get-some-fresh-air

A host of NCC projects set to entice Ottawans to get some fresh air

Tobi Nussbaum
Publishing date: Jan 10, 2022 • 1 day ago • 3 minute read

The start of the new year provides the opportunity to anticipate all that is coming our way in 2022. At the NCC, there is much to be excited about, with dozens of projects under way, led by our able staff and in support of our mission to build an inspiring capital that is a source of pride for all Canadians. Here are a few highlights that will be particularly visible this year.

Parkways for People

In light of their massive popularity during the first two years of the pandemic, the various pilot projects through which we created more outdoor space for people to walk, wheel, bike or run without fear of motor vehicle traffic will be regularized in 2022. Sunday Bikedays are now Weekend Bikedays, quadrupling the amount of time people can enjoy the Ontario parkways, by launching the program earlier in May, through to the Thanksgiving weekend. We’ll also be expanding space for people along the canal, in both winter and summer, starting with daytime weekend closures of the Queen Elizabeth Driveway in January.

In Gatineau Park, we will pilot a summer shuttle service promoting weekend access to destinations along the parkways from downtown Ottawa and Gatineau. This service aims to achieve three objectives: addressing equity for those who don’t own cars; improving accessibility for people with disabilities; and offering cleaner transportation options to reduce associated greenhouse gas emissions.

Shorelines and waterways

Providing more opportunities to enjoy our spectacular waterways will continue to be a focus in 2022. Work on the new Westboro Beach complex will start this summer, while the revitalization of Nepean Point and the NCC River House (former Ottawa New Edinburgh Club) will advance — with the promise of opening up views and access to the Ottawa River. The summer season will see new activities not just near the river, but also on it. From inner tube rafting trips to kayak excursions to dining experiences, new business partnerships will offer varied river adventures for all interests.

On the north shore of the Ottawa River, people will be able to enjoy Jacques-Cartier Park after a two-year decontamination project, while soil cleanup work shifts to the Ruisseau de la Brasserie (Brewery Creek), creating new opportunities to advance the development of this jewel in Gatineau’s crown.

Building on the success of the five outdoor taverns and NCC Bistros we have created with local restaurateurs around the Capital, plans are afoot for additional locations, with details to come this spring.

LeBreton Flats

Our momentum at LeBreton Flats continues to grow. This past fall saw the completion of a new pathway network linking the Ottawa River Pathway to the two LRT stations that bookend the Flats, including an area near Pimisi Station that will provide future opportunities for outdoor activation. In the meantime, this pathway will be added to the Kitchi Sibi Winter Trail, so users of the trail will get an early glimpse of parts of the Flats that haven’t been accessible for decades.

Over the course of the coming year, we will see progress on three major development initiatives. Early this year, in partnership with Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, we will announce the proponent selected to deliver affordable rental housing in a sustainable mixed-use development adjacent to the future Library and Archives Canada and City of Ottawa Central Public Library, east of Booth Street. Second, we look forward to reviewing responses to our request for expressions of interest in two parcels within LeBreton Flats, which we hope will become exciting attractions within the project. Third, the next development phase within the Master Concept Plan — the Flats District between Wellington and the aqueducts — will also come to market this year, providing further impetus toward the transformation of the site.

Finally, among many other initiatives planned for 2022, we will see the launch of Open NCC, modelled on Open Doors, which will offer national capital residents and visitors an up-close look at the NCC’s assets — from guided walks to building tours to nature hikes to archaeological digs.

In the meantime, despite the current pandemic challenges, we are starting 2022 with an ever-expanding network of groomed winter trails on both sides of the river, and preparation under way for what we hope will be (fingers crossed) a robust Rideau Canal Skateway season. We hope to see you out there!

Tobi Nussbaum is chief executive officer of the National Capital Commission.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/nussba...to-entice-ottawans-to-get-some-fresh-air

[AuxTown]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

In the entire near-century that the Flats have sat empty, the NCC has chosen the absolute worst three month period to try and secure a major attraction, apart from maybe 2008. I just can't imagine we're going to see the full breadth of possibilities, unless there is already something in the works behind the scenes with the Sens and the outcome of the "competition" has already been decided, in which case I would selfishly oblige.

I wonder when we can expect the Alfie/Phillips/InsertBillionaireFamily announcement?? Make it official in 2022 and that gives them 3 years to get an arena built before the LRT opens to its full phase 2 length.....sounds good to me!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by AuxTown

I wonder when we can expect the Alfie/Phillips/InsertBillionaireFamily announcement?? Make it official in 2022 and that gives them 3 years to get an arena built before the LRT opens to its full phase 2 length.....sounds good to me!

I think Alfie and Phillips are done with Melnyk. Alfie himself said (off record, but Susan Sherring posted it anyway) that he would like Melnyk to sell. Phillips bailed on the new Sens charity for unknown reasons, but we can speculate.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I think Alfie and Phillips are done with Melnyk. Alfie himself said (off record, but Susan Sherring posted it anyway) that he would like Melnyk to sell. Phillips bailed on the new Sens charity for unknown reasons, but we can speculate.

I think AuxTown is referring to the rumours about Alfie and Phillips being part of negotiations to buy the franchise, along with some unnamed third party who would presumably be fronting most of the $$$. Article is in French.

https://www.danslescoulisses.com/rumeur-...-discussions-pour-acheter-les-senateurs/

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

I think AuxTown is referring to the rumours about Alfie and Phillips being part of negotiations to buy the franchise, along with some unnamed third party who would presumably be fronting most of the $$$. Article is in French.

https://www.danslescoulisses.com/rumeur-...-discussions-pour-acheter-les-senateurs/

Oh!! I did not hear about that! All hail king Alfie!