Transit Fantasies

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because there's no space at Waterfront for a parallel line without major upgrades? Dragging the Expo all the way to Lonsdale may or may not be excessive, but it does allow TransLink to use existing SkyTrain infrastructure instead of building a completely new OMC and depot, both of which would definitely require nine figures.

And again, loops kind of suck. Better to extend the Gold/Purple/etc to Dunderave and have the (eventual) First Narrows-West End connector be its own line.

Why do loops suck?

There IS enough room for 1 more underground station platform, on the side opposite to the Canada Line entrance.

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

EXACTLY this. The routing from Lonsdale to Waterfront is about 13 km around the 2nd narrows and has 11 stops (although I doubt they'll get all 11 stations).

By way of comparison, the Surrey/Langley Extension is 16 km, has 8 additional stations and is estimated to have a 22 minute travel time.

Skytrain averages around 700/800m / minute... so I estimate 17/18 minutes to downtown. Not bad compared to Seabus, TBH.

Not sure what the point is then. Seabus doesn't need capacity help; there's not just room for improved frequency, but the outer Seabus terminal bays are also unused.

The entire route from Phibbs to Marine is industrial blocked from redevelopment up to Heywood, then a steep hill up to the SFH areas on E 3rd St.
If you stick to Marine, there's not much area to redevelop or a good catchment area.


You'd be better with some kind of tram-train with only 1 or 2 stops up from PNE to Lonsdale - except there's probably not enough room for a surface alignment on Marine Dr. (without destroying a ton of industrial lots.)

So the alignment needs viaducts/cut/cover, which means you'd probably better off with the Seabus.


Is there any official study on the mid-harbour crossing (Commercial Dr. to Waterfront)?

That still seems like the best option here, regardless of cost. Only issue is that it makes Commerical-Broadway even more crowded- though that could be alleviated by extending the crossing line to Nanaimo or a new Trout Lake station.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Personally I think the purple line should go down Boundary and connect with Joyce, then replace, or at least truncate if a phase has the line extend to Oakridge, the R4.

Then purple would not connect Brentwood to BCIT and Metrotown, which is kind of a big deal. Boundary is kind of a car pit.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Why do loops suck?

I was wondering this as well. To me, it seems quite efficient; you can get to any point in the line by heading in the shortest direction.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Why do loops suck?

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I was wondering this as well. To me, it seems quite efficient; you can get to any point in the line by heading in the shortest direction.

Because they double back on themselves and cut off outward expansion. So no Dunderave, Ambleside or even Park Royal - the line turns around and heads right back to Vancouver. Generally, you want a loop in the middle of the network where you don't need to expand and all the other lines can bisect it.

Not to mention that looking at the map, a closed circuit at Waterfront would bypass most of the West End and only be able to serve the Coal Harbour NIMBYs. Best to have Park Royal-Downtown as its own line.

Originally Posted by fredinno

There IS enough room for 1 more underground station platform, on the side opposite to the Canada Line entrance...

...Is there any official study on the mid-harbour crossing (Commercial Dr. to Waterfront)?

That still seems like the best option here, regardless of cost. Only issue is that it makes Commerical-Broadway even more crowded- though that could be alleviated by extending the crossing line to Nanaimo or a new Trout Lake station.

"Without major upgrades." The CWHF, if it's even happening, is still a long way away; the Hastings Line has to be planned independently of it.

Both of the mid-harbour options involve rebuilding the Canada Line from Yaletown-onward, so that's probably off the table.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Because they double back on themselves and cut off outward expansion. So no Dunderave, Ambleside or even Park Royal - the line turns around and heads right back to Vancouver. Generally, you want a loop in the middle of the network where you don't need to expand and all the other lines can bisect it.

Not to mention that looking at the map, a closed circuit at Waterfront would bypass most of the West End and only be able to serve the Coal Harbour NIMBYs. Best to have Park Royal-Downtown as its own line.

It will be a long, long, long time before SkyTrain-level service is needed at Ambleside or Dundarave; connect to Park Royal and let bus routes do the rest. Also, option 2A specifically lists Park Royal, so I don't know why you omitted it. As for the West End, bend the tunnel to include more stations. It doesn't have to be a straight line, as demonstrated with the UBC extension and the Jericho lands. The reality is that the North Shore is only likely to get one line for the foreseeable future, there's just not the population to support more and the growth isn't going to be on the same level as the other municipalities in Metro. A circle line along Hastings, through the West End, and then across the North Shore gives better service than a Park Royal - Second Narrows - Waterfront route.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

........... A circle line along Hastings, through the West End, and then across the North Shore gives better service than a Park Royal - Second Narrows - Waterfront route.

Total agreement FWIW. I think that people sometimes favour the Second Narrows route simply because a tunnel under Stanley Park and Burrard Inlet would be SO $$$ expensive and elaborate to build.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

It will be a long, long, long time before SkyTrain-level service is needed at Ambleside or Dundarave; connect to Park Royal and let bus routes do the rest. Also, option 2A specifically lists Park Royal, so I don't know why you omitted it.

And when we're ready to grow Ambleside or Park Royal? Oh well, the previous administration turned it south at Norgate.

Relevant depth map. Option 2A takes the tunnel so deep under Burrard Inlet that it might as well be the direct Waterfront-Lonsdale route. Should I mention that both First Narrows plans don't connect to Lonsdale or Phibbs?

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

As for the West End, bend the tunnel to include more stations. It doesn't have to be a straight line, as demonstrated with the UBC extension and the Jericho lands. The reality is that the North Shore is only likely to get one line for the foreseeable future, there's just not the population to support more and the growth isn't going to be on the same level as the other municipalities in Metro. A circle line along Hastings, through the West End, and then across the North Shore gives better service than a Park Royal - Second Narrows - Waterfront route.

Take a look at the Jericho bend, as well as others in the network - if the loop terminated at Granville or Burrard, it might work, but with Brockton-Waterfront you'd be lucky to get a station on Robson before it has to go back up again. Plus the more of the West End you bother, the more the cost climbs to "pipe dream" - a second tunnel under the Inlet is probably already an extra billion or more.

One line, and one crossing; nobody's going to want to pay two SkyTrains for the price of one, especially not when the extra one boxes the network in and only serves as a shuttle from Norgate to Downtown. A Park Royal-Waterfront RapidBus isn't ideal, but it gets the job done for now.

[Diegotheartist1]

If the North Shore line was to use the same tech as the Expo & Millennium Lines, My theory of how the line could work out is this:

The Expo Line would extend all the way to Phibbs. The Gold route of the North Shore line would terminate somewhere in Downtown Vancouver (Maybe it could be Stadium Station via Platform 3.) As for the purple route, I assume the terminus would be at Station Street near Expo's Metrotown Station.

I'm not sure about which portions of the Gold & Purple are to be elevated or underground (Hastings will be underground), but that is something we're going to have to find out soon.

Here's my conceptual map of what the route may look like based on my assumption:



Blue: Expo
Yellow: Millennium
Cyan: Canada
Red: North Shore

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Best to have Park Royal-Downtown as its own line.

...and connect it to a Hastings line. Lonsdale to Second Narrows down through Burnaby to Metrotown as it's own line. Of course when either of those lines would get built.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And when we're ready to grow Ambleside or Park Royal? Oh well, the previous administration turned it south at Norgate.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

...especially not when the extra one boxes the network in and only serves as a shuttle from Norgate to Downtown.

Whatever, it is obvious that we disagree, but I really wish that you would discuss this based on what was actually said. I've specified Park Royal throughout the discussion.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Should I mention that both First Narrows plans don't connect to Lonsdale or Phibbs?

First off, the image clearly states option 2A as "Burrard via First Narrows/Park Royal to Central Lonsdale, so I don't know why you would do that. Secondly, the routes crossing at the Second Narrows do not go past Lonsdale either. It is not really that difficult to envision a continuous route, especially in a "Transit fantasies" discussion.

[officedweller]

I wouldn't be surprised, as a cost-savings measure, if the Burnaby segment south of the Second Narrows crossing (bridge), heads to Hastings & Boundary (with an underground Burnaby Heights Station there), then cutting over to Douglas Rd where it becomes elevated following Douglas and Gilmore (interchange station at Gilmore Station instead of Brentwood Town Centre) crossing Hwy 1 either along Gilmore or cutting over to Willingdon with a BCIT Station on Willingdon, before entering a tunnel for the hill to Metrotown.

That means 2 compromises on station location: Burnaby Heights being extremely west of the district, and the transfer station at Gilmore instead of Brentwood. Gilmore area may have more office development than Brentwood Town Centre Station.

Originally Posted by Diegotheartist1

Here's my conceptual map of what the route may look like based on my assumption:



Blue: Expo
Yellow: Millennium
Cyan: Canada
Red: North Shore

[Migrant_Coconut]

Douglas Road makes sense. I still think both Hastings and Willingdon should have continuous lines all the way through, though.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Whatever, it is obvious that we disagree, but I really wish that you would discuss this based on what was actually said. I've specified Park Royal throughout the discussion.

First off, the image clearly states option 2A as "Burrard via First Narrows/Park Royal to Central Lonsdale, so I don't know why you would do that. Secondly, the routes crossing at the Second Narrows do not go past Lonsdale either. It is not really that difficult to envision a continuous route, especially in a "Transit fantasies" discussion.

You said (correctly) that we'll only get one line for the North Shore in the near future... but if we've only got enough funding for one line, then we've only got enough for one crossing. Second Narrows and Norgate is already a stretch, but a plausible one; Second Narrows and Park Royal's chances aren't even in the single digits.

Central Lonsdale. Not Lonsdale Quay with the SeaBus terminal, which is what most people in the transit threads usually refer to. And if it's going up the Keith Road slope, it's not coming back down - even with a 6% grade, the fantasy thread's had a hard enough time just getting it from Esplanade to 3rd from the other direction.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

You said (correctly) that we'll only get one line for the North Shore in the near future... but if we've only got enough funding for one line, then we've only got enough for one crossing. Second Narrows and Norgate is already a stretch, but a plausible one; Second Narrows and Park Royal's chances aren't even in the single digits.

OK, I really do not understand where you're coming from. Here, you're saying that Park Royal is too far, but two days ago - in the post I originally replied to and based the loop idea on - you said Park Royal was in both options:

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

A quick reminder of the options:



Both Gold and Purple connect Phibbs to Park Royal. Gold benefits downtown commuters, but Purple benefits the region in general... and doesn't leave half of Metro Van overdependent on one big Expo. At any rate, the eventual solution will likely use some of both.

Anyway, we've used enough space disagreeing, we should probably move on.

[Migrant_Coconut]

That's in TransLink's conceptual plan for just one crossing, at Second Narrows; Second and First in one line requires either a turn south at Norgate, or much more clout and budget than we have in this half of the century. I get that you want a line from your neighbourhood straight downtown, but that isn't likely for various reasons.

[Sheba]

My current fantasy rail map would include the current lines (with Expo and Millennium line extensions completed) and the SFU gondola (admittedly not rail but... ). After that I'd include:


* the purple line from Park Royal to Phibbs (taking care of crosstown traffic on the north shore) and then down through Burnaby to Metrotown

* the gold line along Hastings from the west end to around Kootenay Loop, to allow a connection to the separate purple line

* a line down the Arbutus greenway that turns east to join the Canada Line at Marine Dr station and then following along south of Marine over to 22nd St Station

* an upgrade of the R1 / L Line in Surrey, with the route continuing past Newton and down to 56th Ave / Hwy 10

* possibly on 41st to connect to the Canada and Dunbar Loop - but not beyond to UBC (the Millennium Line already provides service there)


I have no idea what order to build them, or even how long it would take and where the money would come from.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by Sheba

My current fantasy rail map
.
.
.
I have no idea what order to build them, or even how long it would take and where the money would come from.

The beauty of this thread, you don't have to!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

The beauty of this thread, you don't have to!

Ah but some people do! I also try to base my transit fantasy ideas in reality.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

The beauty of this thread, you don't have to!

Yeah that's for the pencil pushers to figure out haha

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Yeah that's for the pencil pushers to figure out haha

What do you think of the routes I listed?

[rpvan]

Quick and dirty sketch I made showing a possible future SkyTrain/LRT/BRT network within Metro Vancouver, excluding current lines and the soon to be built Broadway-Arbutus + Surrey-Langley lines.

The small intra-city lines would be LRT/BRT and the longer inter-city lines would be SkyTrain.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by rpvan

Quick and dirty sketch I made showing a possible future SkyTrain/LRT/BRT network within Metro Vancouver, excluding current lines and the soon to be built Broadway-Arbutus + Surrey-Langley lines.

The small intra-city lines would be LRT/BRT and the longer inter-city lines would be SkyTrain.

Why no line to Tsawwassen Ferry or at least Mills?