Spring Garden Streetscape

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Understood, and this is a valid point of view, but I imagine some SGR retailers might take strong umbrage to this.

If i'm opening a store on a street in Halifax i'm not banking on customers coming in from PEI or Fredericton to survive.

The only stores looking at regional or interprovincial shoppers are the giant big box stores on the fringes.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

This was the other thing I was thinking as reading through the posts (without the uncharacteristically silly "suburbia car lovers" comment).

To be clear I wouldn't put everybody in suburbia in that category (I wasn't in it even though I sometimes lived in suburbia). But there are people who are comfortable in suburbia or rural areas and/or like driving, dislike walking, or hate busy urban areas, or whatever. I don't mean it as a smear or judgement. I know people in this category. It is fine. Downtown Halifax is just not for them, but they have lots of other areas around metro Halifax or the Maritimes (99.9% of the region). The fact that they might express that they dislike downtown doesn't mean downtown needs to be remade for them, nor should we force every rural dweller on an acreage into an apartment.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Not possible? Incompatible? Pointless? Are you serious?

They are very much compatible. They're complementary. There's no earthly reason at all why they can't co-exist.

Your argument seems to be premised on the idea of de-centralized big-box centers competing with vibrant downtowns to offer the same things, but they actually don't, and shouldn't try to.

That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying both can't exist; I'm saying one place (i.e., SGR) can't accomplish the goal of being an exciting urban destination and a super car-friendly destination for drivers. So the idea that SGR should emphasize automotive convenience at the expense of other aspects of place-making is silly.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm not saying both can't exist; I'm saying one place (i.e., SGR) can't accomplish the goal of being an exciting urban destination and a super car-friendly destination for drivers. So the idea that SGR should emphasize automotive convenience at the expense of other aspects of place-making is silly.

Nobody is suggesting SGR should "emphasize automotive convenience". It's just that the city should not be treating the private automobile like an asphalt grinding machine and ban them from streets. Let's face it, streets were always designed for wheeled vehicles, even if at one point they were being pulled by oxen or draft horses. The idea that streets should become the province of people on foot is revisionist thinking at its best. If that is what "place-making" is all about, I would suggest that the term needs to be abandoned. I doubt whether anyone actually can define it coherently anyway. It seems to be yet another urban planning buzzword.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

To be clear I wouldn't put everybody in suburbia in that category (I wasn't in it even though I sometimes lived in suburbia). But there are people who are comfortable in suburbia or rural areas and/or like driving, dislike walking, or hate busy urban areas, or whatever. I don't mean it as a smear or judgement. I know people in this category. It is fine. Downtown Halifax is just not for them, but they have lots of other areas around metro Halifax or the Maritimes (99.9% of the region). The fact that they might express that they dislike downtown doesn't mean downtown needs to be remade for them, nor should we force every rural dweller on an acreage into an apartment.

Haha... I figured that's what you were saying. It was just off your normal style of posting.

This led me to a thought tangent where I wondered if it were even accurate to describe Halifax in urban/suburban terms. Some of the forms can be fit into classic definitions, however, whereas Bedford, Sackville, and Dartmouth were once their own entities with their own distinct areas, they don't seem to fit into the classic definition of 'suburb' in my mind. Additionally, even from Sackville, downtown is only 30 minutes away on a good day, which leads me to believe that if we had good transit, the 'suburbs' of Halifax wouldn't really be considered "car-dependent" IMHO.

Anyhow... back to topic.

[KMcK]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Downtown Halifax (or any downtown) can't possibly compete as a retail mass-merchandising center, but so what? That's completely beside the point. Neither can Dartmouth Crossing compete with SGR as an urban destination. People simply don't go to both places for the same reasons.

Dartmouth Crossing attempted to create a pedestrian-oriented experience with The Village Shops. I have no idea how successful it is, but the idea seems as pointless as putting malls and big box stores downtown.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by KMcK

Dartmouth Crossing attempted to create a pedestrian-oriented experience with The Village Shops. I have no idea how successful it is, but the idea seems as pointless as putting malls and big box stores downtown.

Absolutely. It's pure kitsch and doesn't work at all as a pedestrian location because, well, why would it? It's completely unsuited to anything around it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by KMcK

Dartmouth Crossing attempted to create a pedestrian-oriented experience with The Village Shops. I have no idea how successful it is, but the idea seems as pointless as putting malls and big box stores downtown.

I've shopped there, and find it a better experience than Bayer's lake, which would be its main comparison IMHO. You park in one spot and can then walk outdoors from store to store, or go to a restaurant. You can put your shopping bags in your car trunk before going to the restaurant, if you don't want to carry them around with you.

I haven't done it, but there appears to be reasonable transit coverage (by Halifax's standards for transit) there as well, but it's not downtown Halifax, which isn't its intended market anyhow. It's more an outdoor mall with larger stores, for the most part. It won't appeal to anybody who is expecting an urban experience (but again, that wasn't its purpose), but I think it's a good spot to shop, if that's what you are going for. It serves the outlying communities (including the evil suburbs and rural mix areas) well, also.

To keep in it context, I'm not much of a shopper, so the idea of walking around and browsing in the stores is not my idea of a fun time. I usually know what I want, so I go directly to the shop, get in, buy it, and get out. I never go to downtown to shop, for that reason. I do go to downtown to walk around and enjoy the area for things other than shopping.

In general, I prefer DC better than Bayers Lake because it's not as hectic and I like the layout better.

So while I understand the criticism from a group of urban aficionados, I don't look at it with utter disdain like they do. It serves a purpose and seems to do it well. It's hard to gauge the success of any retail business while we are coming up on 2 years of Covid hell, but there are still new stores being added to DC, so I suppose it would be incorrect to judge it as a failure.

Again, it's not competing with SGR or Barrington Street as a destination. Different forms for different purposes.

[someone123]

I think the row of DC shops is more about creating a mall-like atmosphere than it is about recreating a walkable urban district. Putting small shops together makes it easier to comparison shop or for groups (e.g. families) who want to look at different shops to find things to their tastes without driving around. As an open-air mall it has lower maintenance costs than an enclosed mall.

The big standalone stores of DC tend more toward being destination stores, IKEA being a prime example, while the row of shops has a lot of clothing stores and food.

[JHikka]

Is DC's Village Shops akin to outdoor Tanger Outlets or Brossard's Quartier DIX30? Simply merging an indoor mall with a power centre to create an outdoor mall? In my experience they're nice in the summer but not fun in the winter.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Is DC's Village Shops akin to outdoor Tanger Outlets or Brossard's Quartier DIX30? Simply merging an indoor mall with a power centre to create an outdoor mall? In my experience they're nice in the summer but not fun in the winter.

Yes.

The "village" portion of DC is a reasonable incarnation of the typical type of open air shopping centres seen elsewhere in North America (especially in warmer climes). Although well done, it still feels bland, sterile and artificial. I like it, but it does not match a downtown experience, mostly because it is populated by national chains, many of which are outlets, and the natural organic charm (which evolves over decades) along a typical High Street just isn't there, and likely never will be there.

The "village" has never reached it's full potential, and in particular, the newer section closer to the cinema complex has never achieved full occupancy. The sidewalks within the complex are never busy. Retailers keep coming and going, and the quality of the retailers in the complex continues to go down (LL Bean excepted).

DC is a good attempt at an elevated shopping experience, and is certainly head and shoulders above the clusterfuck of Bayers Lake, but Bayers Lake is really a very low bar to surpass...........

[pblaauw]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I can't speak from the perspective of those who deal with mobility challenges, though, so I would be interested if any forum members can add this point of view.

It's more difficult rolling down the new sidewalks, with the bricks replacing the concrete slabs. It's bumpier, which causes more movement in my spine. Not very enjoyable with scoliosis in a wheelchair.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Yes.

The "village" portion of DC is a reasonable incarnation of the typical type of open air shopping centres seen elsewhere in North America (especially in warmer climes). Although well done, it still feels bland, sterile and artificial. I like it, but it does not match a downtown experience, mostly because it is populated by national chains, many of which are outlets, and the natural organic charm (which evolves over decades) along a typical High Street just isn't there, and likely never will be there.

The "village" has never reached it's full potential, and in particular, the newer section closer to the cinema complex has never achieved full occupancy. The sidewalks within the complex are never busy. Retailers keep coming and going, and the quality of the retailers in the complex continues to go down (LL Bean excepted).

DC is a good attempt at an elevated shopping experience, and is certainly head and shoulders above the clusterfuck of Bayers Lake, but Bayers Lake is really a very low bar to surpass...........

It really is just an outdoor shopping mall in that it isn't integrated into a surrounding neighbourhood in any way. Once thing that could (should) have improved it is that the parkng should have all been around back rather than having all those parked cars right in the central pedestrian areas.

[coastalkid]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The "village" has never reached it's full potential, and in particular, the newer section closer to the cinema complex has never achieved full occupancy. The sidewalks within the complex are never busy. Retailers keep coming and going, and the quality of the retailers in the complex continues to go down (LL Bean excepted).

I agree that the village has never quite reached its full potential but I would disagree that the quality of the retailers continues to go down, as I’ve actually noticed it improve in the past couple of years. LL Bean is obviously the big one, but other chain retailers like Guess, Columbia, Levis, and Puma have all opened outlets in the village recently. In any event, I think the primary reason that people visit Dartmouth Crossing is due to the big box options and/or dining – they have a great variety of restaurants to choose from.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by coastalkid

I agree that the village has never quite reached its full potential but I would disagree that the quality of the retailers continues to go down, as I’ve actually noticed it improve in the past couple of years. LL Bean is obviously the big one, but other chain retailers like Guess, Columbia, Levis, and Puma have all opened outlets in the village recently. In any event, I think the primary reason that people visit Dartmouth Crossing is due to the big box options and/or dining – they have a great variety of restaurants to choose from.

Its not only the shopping and dining but the Accommodations for out of towners. Burnside /DC now hosts or soon will six separate hotels. I know many folks from outside of the Halifax area that love DC for the in and out convenience. They visit "Halifax" without actually even seeing a bridge. My brother lives off Connaught in Halifax but prefers the Costco in DC .
I have often thought if a Stadium ever does come to the Region D/C is where it should go especially if it serves the entire region. In and Out for Folks that are intimidated by Halifax traffic which is a surprising large cohort of Atlantic Canada.Most Maritimers know where the IWK Hospital is and thats all they really want to know.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It really is just an outdoor shopping mall in that it isn't integrated into a surrounding neighbourhood in any way.

That's because there is no surrounding neighborhood.

Once thing that could (should) have improved it is that the parkng should have all been around back rather than having all those parked cars right in the central pedestrian areas.

You obviously have never worked retail. The rear of a retail shop is for loading stock. The front doors are for customers. Parked cars are not radioactive.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Parked cars are not radioactive.

Talk to Halifax City Planning about that.

[Nouvellecosse]

If we're talking about design aspects that make for a pleasant and attractive shopping street, having a parking lot in the middle of it isn't one of them. Most dog shit isn't radio active either but it also isn't a pleasant addition to a streetscape.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Its not only the shopping and dining but the Accommodations for out of towners. Burnside /DC now hosts or soon will six separate hotels. I know many folks from outside of the Halifax area that love DC for the in and out convenience. They visit "Halifax" without actually even seeing a bridge. My brother lives off Connaught in Halifax but prefers the Costco in DC .
I have often thought if a Stadium ever does come to the Region D/C is where it should go especially if it serves the entire region. In and Out for Folks that are intimidated by Halifax traffic which is a surprising large cohort of Atlantic Canada.Most Maritimers know where the IWK Hospital is and thats all they really want to know.

Not sure about that one, most Maritimers I know love to visit downtown Halifax.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Not sure about that one, most Maritimers I know love to visit downtown Halifax.

This probably depends on who your friends are, where they live in the Maritimes, and how comfortable they are in navigating Halifax streets.

I grew up on PEI and only visited Halifax on three occasions before moving there at the age of 21. The further you are from Halifax, the more rural your upbringing, and, your degree of sophistication can all have a bearing on your comfort level with the urban experience.