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  #221  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 4:13 PM
TheRitsman TheRitsman is offline
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Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
Are there actually development plans for the plazas at James & Cannon, James & Colbourne and James & Wilson?
Not yet, but it's only a matter of time. Low density commercial + high property values means redevelopment is inevitable likely sooner than later. Especially since James St N has limited redevelopment opportunities compared to other areas despite being a high value strip.

I suspect James and Wilson will be the first to go since it's the closest to an LRT stop. I'm curious who owns these plazas.
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  #222  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 4:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TheRitsman View Post
Not yet, but it's only a matter of time. Low density commercial + high property values means redevelopment is inevitable likely sooner than later. Especially since James St N has limited redevelopment opportunities compared to other areas despite being a high value strip.

I suspect James and Wilson will be the first to go since it's the closest to an LRT stop. I'm curious who owns these plazas.
I agree with James and Wilson being the first, especially with the massive development planned at John and Wilson. Surely that will put some pressure on whoever owns that land to get moving.

From what we see in Toronto and KW, it's a snowball effect. Once one development happens, others seem to follow not far behind.
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  #223  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 5:15 PM
catcher_of_cats catcher_of_cats is offline
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I've tried to find images of the downtown in the late 1990s or early 2000s and can't really find anything. Which year would you say was the absolute low point?

Streetview from 2007 doesn't look great, but not that bad either.
I can't recall which year it happened but things 'looked' worse BEFORE the urban braille sidewalks went in. You need to go all the way back before 1995 to maybe 1992. The 1990 recession coupled with the main commercial tenants leaving, especially the ones who abandoned the Eaton center and the businesses that died in the international village created a heck of a lot of vacancies.

By the later 1990s, the downtown was already on the upswing though it was a slow slog.
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  #224  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 5:17 PM
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One issue for the dark period was that downtown Hamilton buildings inflated in value during the late 80s real estate boom along with residential and then burned a lot of smaller investors when it cratered, combined with really high commercial tax rates downtown was just disastrous. I knew a couple of physicians who bought small buildings at the price peak.
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  #225  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 5:45 PM
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The best thing that can happen to the core (and somewhat seems to be happening) is fostering an environment where businesses can thrive. That is done in two ways, first attracting residents by limiting the bureaucratic interference preventing new builds from starting. And lower comercial tax rates so that it is more profitable and desirable for businesses to operate here.
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  #226  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2021, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by catcher_of_cats View Post
I can't recall which year it happened but things 'looked' worse BEFORE the urban braille sidewalks went in. You need to go all the way back before 1995 to maybe 1992. The 1990 recession coupled with the main commercial tenants leaving, especially the ones who abandoned the Eaton center and the businesses that died in the international village created a heck of a lot of vacancies.

By the later 1990s, the downtown was already on the upswing though it was a slow slog.
I'd put the lowest point at around 2000, but things did take a dive in the early 1990s with the recession and especially spiralled downward when the Lister Block emptied out completely in '95. There were signs of life (conversion of the Pigott and Sun Life buildings into condos, other much smaller changes) but the core was not a good place to be.

I don't think things really started to gather momentum until James St. was converted to 2-way (2002?). Then we began seeing more and more new restaurants and retail.
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  #227  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2021, 7:33 PM
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Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple View Post
I've tried to find images of the downtown in the late 1990s or early 2000s and can't really find anything. Which year would you say was the absolute low point?

Streetview from 2007 doesn't look great, but not that bad either.
The 80s wre bad for the destruction of buildings and the suburbanization sprawl, but I'd say the worst was between 1997 and 2007. What others fail to mention is they also shut down "the loonie bins" as they called them which left a lot of people with mental health issues wandering downtown, muttering to themselves, crazy people running up to you - downtown just didn't feel.. safe. I was going to college at the time and the bus stoop back then was at gore park - it's since been moved a block over - but yeah you saw a lot of crazies in gore park - like a LOOOT. Now you see families with strollers trotting around liek it's nothing and you simply marvel..

Many many buildings were boarded up or just.. rotting after a century of neglect.. james st n was a mixed bag but most of it was boarded up - broke windows, shady stuff going on in alleyways, and the bingo hall which to many attracted a lower class of people to the downtown core. Thrifty type places and places with bars on the windows were everywhere..the collapse of the eatons center just sucked the life out of the core. I grew up in stoney creek and we kinda looked down on hamiltons as "hamiltonians" - those dirty lower class people who don't speak properly and buy clothes at k-mart etc.

Now go back to the 50s and you have an entirely different story - fur shops cigar shops jewelery shops - downtown was a place of class that you dressed up to go to - the eatons center had their giant windows full of christmas displays that people flocked to see - and many people lived above the businesses, sporting flags on the sides of buildings, as parades marched down king st - one only has to look back to the past to see the pride hamiltonians HAD in the city, when it was still mainly people who had grown up IN the city - the industrial workers who toiled hard (and ruined their health in the process) - they were grimy jobs, but they were jobs nonetheless.

There were also several department stores which brought people flocking - woolworths, kresgys, eatons, all in the downtown, where they are meant to be. Replaced by cash loaning places now and other such places.


Barton was its own township originally and it was hit the hardest with decline, as was cannon st - to this day they are still a symbol of hamiltons decline - the lister blocks state of disrepair was so bad thy actually used its current state at the time as one of the buildings in the silent hill movie. The rest was filmed in Brantford. The city felt like flint Michigan or Detroit - just a rust belt of things gone by

The lister block redevelopment changed EVERYTHING. Spidering out on both sides redevelopment came as people saw hamilton was serious in trying to turn things around - the lister block was a costly renovation with the white terracotta being restored and the entire interior being restored to its original standards after being almost entirely gutted. My friend opened an art gallery in the lister block after it was revived and I had my art in there so I got to appreciate its splendor

In addition gore park suffered a major setback with the cutting down of all of its mature trees - its bathrooms were paved over for fear of drugs deals gone wrong. The culture mostly changed - and I think the 80s brought along more of the worse drugs which ruined many lives in hamilton.

To many hamilton is still dirty, the people are still poor and in some peoples eyes lower class - remember the era of scooters everywhere ? Well that changed when the govt stopped handing them out like free candy - now you barely ever see them.

Hamilton is now going through a culture war. Seeing cheaper prices than toronto, torontonians are coming here, but they are expecting the same toronto lifestyle here as they had in toronto, and thus many eventually leave feeling disappointed, but many bringing their sorta "the world is all about me" mentality that big cities bring with them here, to hamiltons more friendly (sometimes too friendly) blue collar town vibe. Also some of the restaurants, esp on king william, have enormous prices and small servings that leave some feeling.. like it's a bit too.. pretentious. I mean it's fine to have those places of course but hamiltonians are used to affordable eating - esp these days. Hearty eating over ritzy eating.

They spiff up buildings which then skyrocket in price (gentrification), slowly pushing people out of areas they can no longer afford - this spawned a big backlashg a few years back of people vandalizing buildings, gluing locks etc as a way to protest, which led to a lot more affordable housing being proposed. And don't get me wrong - these buildings being revived is an amazing thing - but a buildng shouldnt have to be falling apart in order to have affordable rent. The price of rent in the downtown is now simply astronomical, and the jobs downtown don't reflect the price tag needed to pay for it - unless you work for say a bank.

The sad part is people still view affordable housing as a place where gungy lower class people live - as opposed to just making the city a place to live affordably. 13 years ago I moved into my apartment and was paying 675 a month - the unit next to me now pays 1800 - this isn't sustainable - it's purely greed.

We may be building bigger and better things finally in hamilton, but we may find at the end of the day it's none of us who end up living in the city anymore - but an entirely overturned generation of rich people working in toronto - hamilton really needed to focus on the fact that we can provide all those big name jobs here - we have the office buildings, we just need to lower the taxes and fill them. Bring industry back here, and not just small ma and pop shop stuff - don't make hamilton into a bedroom community like burlington or scarborough or mississauga.
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  #228  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2021, 9:26 PM
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Barton, the township, overlapped with most of the old (pre-amalgamation) city of Hamilton and was fully annexed by 1960. Barton, the street, was probably named for it.


From the Hamilton Public Library's "Local History & Archives" -- https://lha.hpl.ca/articles/chronolo...ships-hamilton



1816
On March 22, 1816, a new district was created out of the old divisions of the Home and Niagara Districts. The new Gore District was named after Sir Francis Gore (1769-1852), Lieutenant-Governor of the colony. This district consisted of the two counties of Wentworth and Halton. At this time the boundaries of Wentworth County were not yet permanently fixed so it was determined that Wentworth would encompass the Townships of Saltfleet, Barton, Binbrook, Glanford, Ancaster and “so much of the County of Haldimand as lies between Dundas Street and the Village of Onondaga”.

1960
The last of Barton Township was annexed by the City of Hamilton and the township ceased to exist.



Excerpts from the same site, next page -- https://lha.hpl.ca/articles/chronolo...ton?page=0%2C1

Township Histories

Barton
The township of Barton was named after Barton upon Humber in Lincolnshire, England, opposite the city of Kingston upon Hull. This township was established originally in Lincoln Township in 1791 and became part of Wentworth County in 1816. As the city of Hamilton began expanding east and south it began annexing portions of Barton Township and completed the annexation of the township in 1960 at which time the name disappeared from the map.

Hamilton
The city of Hamilton was named after George Hamilton (1788-1836) who set out the first plan of the town about 1820. The area was first known as The Head-of-the-Lake for its location at the western end of Lake Ontario. Hamilton was incorporated as a town in 1833. Hamilton was incorporated as a city in 1846. As Hamilton expanded it annexed portions of Ancaster Township to the west, portions of Saltfleet Township to the east and portions of Barton Township to the east and south, eventually annexing all of Barton Township by 1960. When Regional Government was implemented in 1974 the city of Hamilton became part of the Regional Municipality of Hamilton-Wentworth.
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  #229  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2021, 2:51 AM
bvbborussia bvbborussia is offline
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I always thought it said alot about how people viewed downtown in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s that Gore Park essentially served as a bus terminal until it moved to MacNab. They could not have made the park and the surrounding area an less hospitable to business and street life than having buses idle there all day.

Last edited by bvbborussia; Dec 22, 2021 at 3:24 PM.
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  #230  
Old Posted Dec 20, 2021, 9:33 PM
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I always thought it said alot about how people viewed downtown in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s that Gore Park essentially served as a bus terminal until it moved to MacNab. They could not have made the park and the surrounding area an less hospitable to business and street life than having buses idle there all there.
From what I recall, the idea to use it as a central bus "terminal" was based on bringing more life to the park. Then the city went back to having most of the buses stop at MacNab after that experiment failed.
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  #231  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2021, 7:34 PM
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From what I recall, the idea to use it as a central bus "terminal" was based on bringing more life to the park. Then the city went back to having most of the buses stop at MacNab after that experiment failed.
The only way to bring it back to life is to bring all the stores around it back to life, as actual STORES- get all that derelict crap out of there - make it restaurants and fancy places like king william - I mean a good 1/4 is either boarded up still being worked on or filled with cashmart places.. blech!

Hopefully getting all the people into the core again will help

they did a good job revitalizing james st, It would be nice to see people hanging out windows with flags on their buildings over parades down king st again like the old days.. ticker tap parades and all that..
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  #232  
Old Posted Dec 22, 2021, 2:41 PM
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The only way to bring it back to life is to bring all the stores around it back to life, as actual STORES- get all that derelict crap out of there - make it restaurants and fancy places like king william - I mean a good 1/4 is either boarded up still being worked on or filled with cashmart places.. blech!

Hopefully getting all the people into the core again will help
And that's been a key driver for the decay -- the market for those stores and restaurants dried up. People living and working downtown has been the only way to instill revival, not the silver bullet ideas politicians love to put out there like new arenas and malls and such.

The decline happened in steps over a couple of decades, at least. Things have come a long way and they seem to be accelerating now that larger residential projects are happening and the urban environment is slowly becoming more people-friendly, but the comeback has always been an incremental process too.
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  #233  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2021, 7:56 AM
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Next they should work on more entertainment venues downtown - I mean breweries and restaurants are all fun and dandy, but what is there to actually DO downtown other than go to the movies at jackson? Or art galleries, which I do concede is a step in the right direction.. even if the buying market to feed those artists isn't quite there yet. Most of the bars have closed up, the roller rink is long gone.. sure there is copps coliseum and bands you can see.. but we need more..
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  #234  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2021, 7:58 PM
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Next they should work on more entertainment venues downtown - I mean breweries and restaurants are all fun and dandy, but what is there to actually DO downtown other than go to the movies at jackson? Or art galleries, which I do concede is a step in the right direction.. even if the buying market to feed those artists isn't quite there yet. Most of the bars have closed up, the roller rink is long gone.. sure there is copps coliseum and bands you can see.. but we need more..
I imagine when there are more people living downtown, and such gatherings are unfettered by the pandemic, live entertainment will return and grow. Smaller stuff too, not just the larger facilities which will should return to hosting concerts and shows as they did before (and more, with the renovations slated for some of them).
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  #235  
Old Posted Dec 29, 2021, 2:31 PM
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I imagine when there are more people living downtown, and such gatherings are unfettered by the pandemic, live entertainment will return and grow. Smaller stuff too, not just the larger facilities which will should return to hosting concerts and shows as they did before (and more, with the renovations slated for some of them).
It's almost impossible to envision things like supercrawl anymore in our pandemic world..
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  #236  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 12:45 PM
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It's almost impossible to envision things like supercrawl anymore in our pandemic world..
Considering how much people have been chomping at the bit to go to concerts and such again, I suspect it will be back and fine soon. If the idea of parades and such survived the Spanish Flu fine, it’ll survive Covid.
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  #237  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 6:08 PM
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It's almost impossible to envision things like supercrawl anymore in our pandemic world..
It does seem like ages ago that these things were a regular part of living.

I was at the Grey Cup game though, and it felt more normal than I thought it would. Some people clearly didn't care about masks and distancing, while others were taking precautions. It will probably be the same as we get back to doing these activities.

It may even feel odd for a while when we're no longer wearing masks in the places that currently require them.
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  #238  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 6:38 PM
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I think the vast majority of people are ready to get back to normal. The virus is clearly not as deadly as once thought, especially with this latest variant. We've done our part, we've been vaccinated, it has been two years now.
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  #239  
Old Posted Dec 30, 2021, 10:25 PM
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I do think, barring something very weird, this is likely to be the last bad winter of it. Mask wearing when you’re sick is probably going to stay, but that’s already been a thing for years in East Asia, and is probably a good thing.
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  #240  
Old Posted Mar 4, 2022, 2:27 PM
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2/26/2022 by Joe, on Flickr
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