Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by theman23

It’s T’ronno. Only the crazy drunk homeless Santa pronounces it Chranna.

Realizing syllable-initial [tɹ] ("tr") as [tʃɹ] ("chr") is fairly ubiquitous across North American Englishes, so much so that it doesn't really register as a distinct sound. This is because there are no environments where (a) syllable-initial [tʃɹ] occurs as a phonemically distinct cluster, or where (b) [tɹ] is not realized as [tʃɹ], which means they're in complementary distribution and therefore phonological allophones. For another example of a /t/ allophone in North American Englishes, consider /t/ before syllabic [n] (cotton, forgotten, button, etc.)—no one perceives this sound as not-[t], even though the sound we use there sounds nothing like it; rather, we use a glottal stop, the same sound we use between the vowels in "uh-oh".

Therefore: chrenchcoat, chrout, Mun-chree-all, etc. My guess is we perceive the "ch" in "Chrawna" differently because some speakers (myself included) pronounce the word with a syllabic "r" (i.e., chr-raw-no), which is not normally realized this way (e.g., in "turbine", "turf", etc.). The "a" at the end of "Chranna" is that part that stands out as drunk homeless Santa-y to me.

[hipster duck]

^Interesting contribution, as always!

I'm guilty of the chr- sound when it comes to any tr- word: 'chrain', ''chravel', etc. but my pronunciation of words like attribute, which follow a /t/ consonant, sound a lot more like it's written, with no discerable 'ch-' sound.

Incidentally, the French pronunciation of 'tr-' is quite difficult for a native English speaker. It is for me, at least. I find that I have to really think to make the transition from a very pointed 't' sound which is made by pushing the tip of the tongue against the front of the mouth followed by a very back-of-the-mouth 'r' sound in mere microseconds.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by theman23

It’s T’ronno. Only the crazy drunk homeless Santa pronounces it Chranna.

I've never heard the A on the end, "Trawna," before. Aside from people trying to be funny. Has anyone here ever heard someone speaking in their normal voice say "Trawna"?

The distinction between "Trawno" and "Trawna," i.e. speaking normally and trying to be amusing, brings to mind what the proprietor of a rib truck said to me at the local rib festival one year. When I asked where he was from, he said "Chicaga" in a jovial, folksy way. But that's nothing I've ever heard before. Considering how ubiquitous regional American oddities are in TV and movies, you'd think I would have.

Seems like the same phenomenon at work here.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I've never heard the A on the end, "Trawna," before. Aside from people trying to be funny. Has anyone here ever heard someone speaking in their normal voice say "Trawna"?

Toronna is what my born-and-raised Torontonian grandma always called it. Not sure though if that may have just been a personal affectation or if it actually harkened back to how people actually pronounced it once upon a time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

^Interesting contribution, as always!

I'm guilty of the chr- sound when it comes to any tr- word: 'chrain', ''chravel', etc. but my pronunciation of words like attribute, which follow a /t/ consonant, sound a lot more like it's written, with no discerable 'ch-' sound.

Incidentally, the French pronunciation of 'tr-' is quite difficult for a native English speaker. It is for me, at least. I find that I have to really think to make the transition from a very pointed 't' sound which is made by pushing the tip of the tongue against the front of the mouth followed by a very back-of-the-mouth 'r' sound in mere microseconds.

Ottawa anglos, while they don't generally pronounce French names and words exactly the French way, are often pretty good with most of the sounds that are particular to French that give other ROCers trouble, like the "gn" sound in names like Gagnon and Sévigny for example.

Of course, Anglo-Montrealers are even better, and generally pronounce most names the full French way even.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I've never heard the A on the end, "Trawna," before. Aside from people trying to be funny. Has anyone here ever heard someone speaking in their normal voice say "Trawna"?

The distinction between "Trawno" and "Trawna," i.e. speaking normally and trying to be amusing, brings to mind what the proprietor of a rib truck said to me at the local rib festival one year. When I asked where he was from, he said "Chicaga" in a jovial, folksy way. But that's nothing I've ever heard before. Considering how ubiquitous regional American oddities are in TV and movies, you'd think I would have.

Seems like the same phenomenon at work here.

For me:

Ohio is supposed to have an O sound at the end, but lots of people from there and other states say "oh-heye-yuh".

Missouri ends in "ee" to me but I've often heard "mizz-oo-ruh".

And of course I say "flo-rid-uh" but lots of people saw "flaw-rid-uh".

[theman23]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

Realizing syllable-initial [tɹ] ("tr") as [tʃɹ] ("chr") is fairly ubiquitous across North American Englishes, so much so that it doesn't really register as a distinct sound. This is because there are no environments where (a) syllable-initial [tʃɹ] occurs as a phonemically distinct cluster, or where (b) [tɹ] is not realized as [tʃɹ], which means they're in complementary distribution and therefore phonological allophones. For another example of a /t/ allophone in North American Englishes, consider /t/ before syllabic [n] (cotton, forgotten, button, etc.)—no one perceives this sound as not-[t], even though the sound we use there sounds nothing like it; rather, we use a glottal stop, the same sound we use between the vowels in "uh-oh".

Therefore: chrenchcoat, chrout, Mun-chree-all, etc. My guess is we perceive the "ch" in "Chrawna" differently because some speakers (myself included) pronounce the word with a syllabic "r" (i.e., chr-raw-no), which is not normally realized this way (e.g., in "turbine", "turf", etc.). The "a" at the end of "Chranna" is that part that stands out as drunk homeless Santa-y to me.

Interesting, but I can't say I've heard either example. If someone pronounced "cotton" as "coh-un", I would think they were a small child or had a speech impediment.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by theman23

Interesting, but I can't say I've heard either example. If someone pronounced "cotton" as "coh-un", I would think they were a small child or had a speech impediment.

You're misunderstanding what a glottal stop is. Using the ahem sound in between "uh" and "oh" in the term "uh oh" in words like "button," "cotton" etc. is standard in North American English. In fact, you'd sound freakishly weird if you actually pronounced those double Ts properly as unvoiced plosives (breath out without sounding your vocal cords). We only do that if repeating the word when somebody didn't hear it clearly, or when speaking very slowly.

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In French the first E is definitely pronounced as an É and the T is clearly pronounced.

Even though there is no accent on this E in the way it's written, the "ay" sound also reflects how it's said in Italian.

In English, most Ottawa types generally say "monnabello".

I always disliked how Almonte is pronounced in the Ottawa Valley. It’s an Italian name but most people seem to ignore the final “e” and just pronounce it Almont.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I always disliked how Almonte is pronounced in the Ottawa Valley. It’s an Italian name but most people seem to ignore the final “e” and just pronounce it Almont.

Spanish name, actually. I don't think I've ever heard it pronounced correctly.

[Dengler Avenue]

Then the “frew” in Renfrew is super hard to say…

[jonny24]

Using an -a sound at the end of Toronto is pretty common IMO, but people probably don't even register that they're doing it.

That's not the only word either. The other example I can think of right now it "tomorrow". tuh-mar-uh is very easy to slip into, and my dad's who family slurs it even more, to something like... 'nmarruh. Maybe n isn't the right letter to put there, but it's barely vocalized.

The T/Ch discussion made me think of another one - turning S into SH. The example I have in mind is the word Species. I've heard it happen to both sounds, either SHpecies, or speSHies, or one particular classmate I had, both, SHpeSHies.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by jonny24

Using an -a sound at the end of Toronto is pretty common IMO, but people probably don't even register that they're doing it.

That's not the only word either. The other example I can think of right now it "tomorrow". tuh-mar-uh is very easy to slip into, and my dad's who family slurs it even more, to something like... 'nmarruh. Maybe n isn't the right letter to put there, but it's barely vocalized.

The T/Ch discussion made me think of another one - turning S into SH. The example I have in mind is the word Species. I've heard it happen to both sounds, either SHpecies, or speSHies, or one particular classmate I had, both, SHpeSHies.

SpeSHies.

[Dengler Avenue]

“I said ‘sit’. I didn’t say ****.”

[kwoldtimer]

One that has surprised me in these days of Covid is "respiratory". Specifically, the number of people who use (sort of) the British pronunciation rather than the American, which I thought was standard in Canada. "Res-PEER-a-tree" just sounds odd to me. Not to generate a "con-TROV-ersy".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by le calmar

I always disliked how Almonte is pronounced in the Ottawa Valley. It’s an Italian name but most people seem to ignore the final “e” and just pronounce it Almont.

Newcomers to the region often pronounce it "al-mon-tay" until they learn better!

I can always tell the new Radio-Canada reporters just in from Trois-Rivières when a fire breaks out or there is a car crash in Almonte.

Then again ROCers who move to Ottawa and do traffic reporting have lots of fun at first with French place names, especially on the Gatineau side.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Newcomers to the region often pronounce it "al-mon-tay" until they learn better!

I can always tell the new Radio-Canada reporters just in from Trois-Rivières when a fire breaks out or there is a car crash in Almonte.

Then again ROCers who move to Ottawa and do traffic reporting have lots of fun at first with French place names, especially on the Gatineau side.

I think every place has its quirky local pronunciations that quickly give away who the locals are and who just came to town.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think every place has its quirky local pronunciations that quickly give away who the locals are and who just came to town.

Yes, there are even some English names like that in Ottawa.

North Gower for example which is "goar" and not "gow-urr". Apparently locals get offended if you say it the wrong way!

[savevp]

I wonder if anyone from Windsor-Essex can confirm, but I was out there this summer and seemed to hear Amherstburg pronounced Am-ist-burg/Ammust-burg by all the locals. Maybe I was imagining?

And for what its worth, being based in the GTA, I don't think I've ever heard any variation of Toronto that ends with an 'a' (trawnna, chronna, etc.). That seems contrived to me. Tronno, Taronno, Chronno, sure, but always with the 'o.' To my ears, someone answering where they're from with 'toronna' would be just as ostentatious as answering 'the 6ix.'

Of course there is one classic exception I know of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boJvi-4OcKg

The Kings - This Beat Goes On

'wanna' and Toronto rhyme in this one.

[JHikka]

I thought 'Tronna' was derived from people like Don Cherry and his ilk - an older generation who did everything in their power to mispronounce city names as much as possible. Chi-car-go, De-troy-it, Tronna.