Denver Non-Development / Civic Discussion Thread

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Robert.hampton

A little less clear who would want to live there right now .

1. Meth users
2. Heroin users
3. People who are being told to return to the office January 3 and whose offices are across the street, assuming a zipline could be installed to avoid street-level interaction with 1. and 2.

I am in camp 3.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

1. Meth users
2. Heroin users
3. People who are being told to return to the office January 3 and whose offices are across the street, assuming a zipline could be installed to avoid street-level interaction with 1. and 2.

I am in camp 3.

Come, not all Capitol Complex personnel abuse meth or heroin. The classy one's hold out for cocaine, particularly the lobbyists.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

I think there's a seasonal component. This is not the most friendly winter for unhoused people.

[Robert.hampton]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

I walked by this building today, one entire side has unobstructed sightline of the Capitol & park, which would make for some pretty cool views for someone who wants a city life.

I walked from the Capitol all the way down the mall to Curtis and didn't encounter a single drug user of any type.

I am somewhat desensitized from living in the city everyday and accepting the reality of city life and city problems. I walk miles everyday and do not see hoards of drug users and crazies. I see very few actually, like one or two on most days if I avoid the light rail tracks at Union Station (haha).

It does seem like there has been a very concerted shift of the rift raft from the top of the mall down to union station over the past year. The top of the mall used to be the hot spot when the urban travellers were taking over Denver and wielding their urban weapons and mayhem around town. Seems like they've aged, fallen deeper into drug comas, and established Union Station as their more low-key drug den.





The urban travelers that used to live at the top of the mall, circa 2017



The 2021 Union Station meth crew seem to go over the edge with their drugs a bit more than the OG urban travelers. They also seem to me to be a bit older and less spry than the urban traveler group.

[BG918]

Ah yes I remember the hill dwellers a few years back. They basically trashed Commons Park and then after the the fences went up they left or moved to other areas. Commons Park still has a bad rep because of it.

The same thing is now happening at DUS. I was down there earlier and they have definitely increased the police presence. That combined with the fences up by Whole Foods and the mobile command center set up by Sweetgreen should help the situation but I still had a druggie yell at me and followed me a block because he “didn’t like my face”. I can see why anyone but the hardest urbanites wouldn’t want any part of that area right now.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by BG918

Ah yes I remember the hill dwellers a few years back. They basically trashed Commons Park and then after the the fences went up they left or moved to other areas. Commons Park still has a bad rep because of it.

The same thing is now happening at DUS. I was down there earlier and they have definitely increased the police presence. That combined with the fences up by Whole Foods and the mobile command center set up by Sweetgreen should help the situation but I still had a druggie yell at me and followed me a block because he “didn’t like my face”. I can see why anyone but the hardest urbanites wouldn’t want any part of that area right now.

Yep. Also noticed the capitol area has a steady state police presence. I don't walk there everyday, but when I do, I notice State police patrolling. DPD is usually parked on the mall. Commons Park is full of people and dogs. Arapahoe Sq had an open air drug market on 21st St, but now PBS took that space with XD2 across the street so they left. Guess that leaves the backside of Union Station, until they get pushed out of there.

[TakeFive]

Imagine being a female...

Should downtown be for men only?

Originally Posted by BG918

but I still had a druggie yell at me and followed me a block because he “didn’t like my face”. I can see why anyone but the hardest urbanites wouldn’t want any part of that area right now.

An Interesting read but not very useful.

We spent 18 hours at Union Station. Here’s everything we saw and heard.
December 10, 2021 By Kevin Beaty and Kyle Harris/Denverite

They may show the seedy side but they (mostly) miss the destructive, dangerous side.

Everybody wants the 'police' to Fix It

Then they tie one hand behind every cop's back and proclaim "Go fix it."

[Denver Police Chief Paul] Pazen knows there’s a universe of problems wrapped up in the homelessness and addiction his officers have been tasked to help with here.

He said some recent legislative changes have made it harder to deal with the fentanyl problem. State officials voted to make most drug possession crimes misdemeanors in 2019, and Pazen said that took away crucial tools law enforcement once used to push people toward treatment.

So it's the classic story of "Unintended Consequences"?

Before the law passed, he said, people picked up for possession had the option to go into treatment and avoid formal charges. While Pazen thinks backers of the 2019 law were “well intentioned,” he doesn’t think there’s enough incentive to get people to sever ties with their addictions.

He said his department has sent a social worker into the bus terminal pretty regularly over the past few weeks, though nobody so far has accepted help. He described them as “service-resistant,” and said “handouts” are making it too easy for people to avoid taking personal responsibility for themselves.

I read (somewhere) that the potency of fentanyl is measured in micro-grams. So carrying 'X' amount of grams being a meaningless misdemeanor only enables drug dealing - which if you think about it initiates and perpetuates addiction.

The irrationality of politics

A group of impassioned Liberals (or Conservatives) insists on addressing 'Issue A' and don't consider the unintended consequence for B and C; or due to their passion they don't care about B and C; they'll let somebody else worry about that. (Abortion is a good conservative example)

Liberals need to clean-up their own house

Conservative couldn't care less if the city center rots.

Preserving the character of the neighborhood

This isn't about what I want; it's thinking on behalf of those that live in Washington Park (for example). Homelessness and addiction will only reinforce the desire to protect one's neighborhood.

[TakeFive]

The Dirt and the Taliban

I read that the Taliban started rounding up their own heroine addicts and putting them in encampments (crude prisons).

Of course, America given its vast resources and sophisticated knowledge would never use such a crude approach. They know a much better way to humanely address addiction. Right?

It doesn't take a rocket surgeon (or MBA degree) to clearly see that the addicted are unmotivated or more appropriately "powerless" to seek solutions via the services being offered. What is inhumane is to pretend to offer a fix when you're only enabling and perpetuating.

Originally Posted by The Dirt

Seriously, I've been thinking about this. Why can't Denver buy a farm in Adams county? We could provide shuttles for work, relocate all of the support services there and add security so that drug dealers can't target the homeless.

As crude as the Taliban's approach may seem, if they are successful in curing their addicted "Afghan brothers" is that not in reality a more humane approach?

The Dirt's thinking is trending in the right direction. There needs to be a Zero Tolerance approach where one-by-one an individual assessment is made such that the addicted are offered one or two pathways that leave them no choice to remain a cancer on society.

If you believe that those who are addicted would be much happier if they were free from addiction - other issues can also be addressed - but until one has a clear brain they'll never make progress. The nature of any solution seems rather obvious to me.

-----------------
Nice Find

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

Kenect Denver back from the dead...?

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

If you believe that those who are addicted would be much happier if they were free from addiction - other issues can also be addressed - but until one has a clear brain they'll never make progress. The nature of any solution seems rather obvious to me.

Yes, involuntary confinement is the obvious solution. The problem is making it work legally (thank you Supreme Court circa 1970's). We kind of screwed things up when the substitute (a very poor one) for involuntary confinement, jail, is removed as a tool.


This is probably the best alternative solution you can implement given the constraints:
https://apnews.com/article/jared-polis-c...welfare-8772ee89b5cac24d4e54f0edbc379731


There's a few more shuttered prisons on the plains, such as the Kit Carson Correction Facility, that could be re-purposed for such a use. Couple enough treatment with a criminalization of fentanyl and you probably have a decent setup for a diversion program vs an the old incarceration model that didn't work.


Be nice if the STAR program was also patrolling Union Station once it's further spun up, but it's still not at a level that it can provide 24/7 service in a crisis area like Union Station.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

I walked by this building today, one entire side has unobstructed sightline of the Capitol & park, which would make for some pretty cool views for someone who wants a city life.

I walked from the Capitol all the way down the mall to Curtis and didn't encounter a single drug user of any type.

I am somewhat desensitized from living in the city everyday and accepting the reality of city life and city problems. I walk miles everyday and do not see hoards of drug users and crazies. I see very few actually, like one or two on most days if I avoid the light rail tracks at Union Station (haha).

Are we living in the same City? I walked from Larimer - DCPA- Civic Center this weekend. Accosted by two people high on something and noticed at least two drug dealers pushing product. I also saw a bunch of youtubers shamelessly filming a person having a mental/physical breakdown in an alley with their stupid high tech cameras with giant lights and microphones. Shame on the civilization we have become.

In the last 20 years, I have never NOT SEEN a police car cruise down 16th street mall or be parked there. Since last summer, I've yet to see a single police car or police presence on 16th street mall in maybe 6 visits now. To me, there is a clear connection between presence/enforcement and crime rates and 16th Street Mall is a fantastic example of that.

Downtown was so depressing this weekend I don't think I can bring myself to go back, it's just too sad. RiNo, LoHi, Platte St, and the inner neighborhoods are all still bustling, but downtown Denver is dead and it really doesn't feel like it's moving on the greener pastures.

[Chucolo]

Are we living in the same City? I walked from Larimer - DCPA- Civic Center this weekend. Accosted by two people high on something and noticed at least two drug dealers pushing product. I also saw a bunch of youtubers shamelessly filming a person having a mental/physical breakdown in an alley with their stupid high tech cameras with giant lights and microphones. Shame on the civilization we have become.

In the last 20 years, I have never NOT SEEN a police car cruise down 16th street mall or be parked there. Since last summer, I've yet to see a single police car or police presence on 16th street mall in maybe 6 visits now. To me, there is a clear connection between presence/enforcement and crime rates and 16th Street Mall is a fantastic example of that.

Downtown was so depressing this weekend I don't think I can bring myself to go back, it's just too sad. RiNo, LoHi, Platte St, and the inner neighborhoods are all still bustling, but downtown Denver is dead and it really doesn't feel like it's moving on the greener pastures.




I, too, walked around downtown Saturday, from DUS down to civic center on 16th Street and back via 14th, past DCPA and through Larimer Square en route to DUS and train. I wasn't accosted by anyone, although there was the one dude with his pants halfway down his legs who was yelling at people right outside of the station. That said, 16th Street is depressing; the number of empty storefronts continues to grow and there just doesn't seem to be that much that would attract someone who wasn't looking for a t-shirt or a sports jersey. (Larimer Square, too, was pretty empty, but I also saw how crowded it was later that night when I was driving back from a concert; it still kills me to see the former Market, now empty.) I was, however, very happy to see Civic Center packed with families attending the Christmas market. I wasn't sure what to expect this year, but it appears that moving the market from Arapaho to the park is a smart move. On the other hand, 16th and Arapaho was pretty sad. As for police/security, I only saw one private security guard on the mall; I didn't see any police on the mall or at the park, but I also didn't see anything that warranted concern while I was there. At DUS, security was much more visible and someone was actively checking folks who wanted to use the restrooms to make sure they were customers. Not sure what happens if you just wanted to go visit Tattered Cover...... I did see two guards remove one person who was vocally protesting his ouster. There is no question that downtown is facing some significant challenges but alas, there are no easy answers. It certainly appears, however, that developers remain bullish downtown. That is a positive development and one I hope fuels another new beginning for the heart of the city.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Are we living in the same City? I walked from Larimer - DCPA- Civic Center this weekend. Accosted by two people high on something and noticed at least two drug dealers pushing product. I also saw a bunch of youtubers shamelessly filming a person having a mental/physical breakdown in an alley with their stupid high tech cameras with giant lights and microphones. Shame on the civilization we have become.

In the last 20 years, I have never NOT SEEN a police car cruise down 16th street mall or be parked there. Since last summer, I've yet to see a single police car or police presence on 16th street mall in maybe 6 visits now. To me, there is a clear connection between presence/enforcement and crime rates and 16th Street Mall is a fantastic example of that.

Downtown was so depressing this weekend I don't think I can bring myself to go back, it's just too sad. RiNo, LoHi, Platte St, and the inner neighborhoods are all still bustling, but downtown Denver is dead and it really doesn't feel like it's moving on the greener pastures.

think Take5 mentioned it, probably a time-of-day thing.

My walks downtown are usually around noon on sunny days during the week. I can't recall a time I didn't see a DPD SUV parked on the mall. The mall is quite vibrant, full of people, with active hotel lobbies, restaurants and many people walking in a generally safe and pleasant environment. Very few disruptive individuals (always a couple weirdos, but that is to be expected).

However, its just an interesting walking route, I don't actually hang-out there in the evenings. I prefer the non-chain restaurants and breweries and pubs in same areas you mention.

[gopokes21]

Originally Posted by laniroj

Are we living in the same City? I walked from Larimer - DCPA- Civic Center this weekend. Accosted by two people high on something and noticed at least two drug dealers pushing product. I also saw a bunch of youtubers shamelessly filming a person having a mental/physical breakdown in an alley with their stupid high tech cameras with giant lights and microphones. Shame on the civilization we have become.

In the last 20 years, I have never NOT SEEN a police car cruise down 16th street mall or be parked there. Since last summer, I've yet to see a single police car or police presence on 16th street mall in maybe 6 visits now. To me, there is a clear connection between presence/enforcement and crime rates and 16th Street Mall is a fantastic example of that.

Downtown was so depressing this weekend I don't think I can bring myself to go back, it's just too sad. RiNo, LoHi, Platte St, and the inner neighborhoods are all still bustling, but downtown Denver is dead and it really doesn't feel like it's moving on the greener pastures.

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

think Take5 mentioned it, probably a time-of-day thing.

My walks downtown are usually around noon on sunny days during the week. I can't recall a time I didn't see a DPD SUV parked on the mall. The mall is quite vibrant, full of people, with active hotel lobbies, restaurants and many people walking in a generally safe and pleasant environment. Very few disruptive individuals (always a couple weirdos, but that is to be expected).

However, its just an interesting walking route, I don't actually hang-out there in the evenings. I prefer the non-chain restaurants and breweries and pubs in same areas you mention.

Both of these posts are true. Yes, the chronically homeless hordes actively experiencing distress and trauma has gotten bad downtown. Like comparable to LA Skid Row. Publicly declaring Union Station a lost hellhole is a galvanizing moment in all of this.

Also yes, downtown Denver is still bustling and plenty of all kinds of people still come downtown. Events are well-attended. Good restaurants all have waits. Parking is hard to find. Downtown is generally fine.

Crime and homelessness are just growing problems across the entire metro. We've had people sleeping in our alley in Congress Park or using our condo's outside outlet to charge their phone. Most of the unhoused aren't a problem, but there is also a uniquely nasty element festering downtown, and these people are coming from across the nation. It's like the Gathering of the Juggalos, but for hard core drug users having public breakdowns. This group of homeless is very different than those in shelters or temporary housing, who are actively seeking services and it kind of sucks that most Denver residents conflate the two.

[TakeFive]

And the backlash is coming

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Crime and homelessness are just growing problems across the entire metro.

You are correct about the problems being metro wide.

‘Crime Tsunami’: New Study... Finds Colorado’s Crime Rate Worse Than Other States
December 10, 2021 By CBS4 Political Specialist Shaun Boyd

DENVER (CBS4)– A new study finds violent crimes and property crimes are rising faster in Colorado than nationally. Common Sense Institute, a non-partisan research organization, says violent crime jumped 10% in the state last year, compared to 5% nationally, and property crime increased 8%, while it dropped 8% nationally.

“We are awash in a crime tsunami,” says former 18th Judicial District Attorney George Brauchler.

Perhaps not shocking but this one caught me by surprise.

...and motor vehicle theft up 135%. Colorado, they say, had the highest motor vehicle theft rate in the country last year.

Just curious: what are the latest car insurance rates in Colorado. I just got a small bump up to $94/mo but if it wasn't for my rideshare rider I'd be paying closer to $77/mo.

Apparently the current system isn't working.

The study found not only is Colorado’s crime rate worse than most states, but that we have one of the highest recidivism rates in the country.

-------------------
I'm only mildly surprised but certainly pleasantly surprised

Originally Posted by rds70

^^In the same general area, a building permit application was submitted Friday for the 1900 Lawrence office building.

They had previously indicated their intent to move forward; still I wondered, given all the Pandemic issues if they might delay. But thinking about it, the soonest tenants could move in is presumably closer to three years from now.

[COtoOC]

Originally Posted by gopokes21

Both of these posts are true. Yes, the chronically homeless hordes actively experiencing distress and trauma has gotten bad downtown. Like comparable to LA Skid Row. Publicly declaring Union Station a lost hellhole is a galvanizing moment in all of this.

Also yes, downtown Denver is still bustling and plenty of all kinds of people still come downtown. Events are well-attended. Good restaurants all have waits. Parking is hard to find. Downtown is generally fine.

Crime and homelessness are just growing problems across the entire metro. We've had people sleeping in our alley in Congress Park or using our condo's outside outlet to charge their phone. Most of the unhoused aren't a problem, but there is also a uniquely nasty element festering downtown, and these people are coming from across the nation. It's like the Gathering of the Juggalos, but for hard core drug users having public breakdowns. This group of homeless is very different than those in shelters or temporary housing, who are actively seeking services and it kind of sucks that most Denver residents conflate the two.

I've heard rumors, but who knows if it's true, that other cities send their homeless TO Denver to get rid of them. Anyone heard if that's true? I read an article a few years back that that's what happened in San Francisco. The more services they provided to the homeless, the more other cities sent them their homeless, making it a huge problem for the city.

[Arapahoe]

Originally Posted by COtoOC

I've heard rumors, but who knows if it's true, that other cities send their homeless TO Denver to get rid of them. Anyone heard if that's true? I read an article a few years back that that's what happened in San Francisco. The more services they provided to the homeless, the more other cities sent them their homeless, making it a huge problem for the city.

The city has had one BIG win. They setup a frequent clean-up zone in Arapahoe Square. Incredibly successful! no more large encampments with giant mounds of trash and blocked sidewalks in the zone. I saw it put to the test last month. Tents popped up across from Yazoo BBQ and were removed that SAME day. Previously, encampments would linger for months, grow and become very unsanitary. The city would close roads and clean for DAYS. Then the tents would be back in a few days. No more! I'm guessing this costs a fraction of full scale clean-ups.

[Curtis Park]

Originally Posted by Arapahoe

The city has had one BIG win. They setup a frequent clean-up zone in Arapahoe Square. Incredibly successful! no more large encampments with giant mounds of trash and blocked sidewalks in the zone. I saw it put to the test last month. Tents popped up across from Yazoo BBQ and were removed that SAME day. Previously, encampments would linger for months, grow and become very unsanitary. The city would close roads and clean for DAYS. Then the tents would be back in a few days. No more! I'm guessing this costs a fraction of full scale clean-ups.

Not really a win, unless you live in Arapahoe Square. The camp just move outside of the cleanup area. Then they build over a number of weeks until they move. Take a look at Curtis Park, San Rafeal, RiNo, just about anyplace in Five Points. What would be less expensive than cleanups is enforcing the camping ban. But the rights of bike stealing methheads are more important than the property owners or the rest of the public.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Curtis Park

What would be less expensive than cleanups is enforcing the camping ban. But the rights of bike stealing methheads are more important than the property owners or the rest of the public.

100%.

I wouldn't even care if it was more expensive - put them in jail. (And sure as hell don't let them roam the streets on $1 bail, terrorizing the City, in the meantime.) Then keep them there for as long as it takes. Detox shouldn't be optional for people camping on our streets.

[Curtis Park]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

100%.

I wouldn't even care if it was more expensive - put them in jail. (And sure as hell don't let them roam the streets on $1 bail, terrorizing the City, in the meantime.) Then keep them there for as long as it takes. Detox shouldn't be optional for people camping on our streets.

Agreed. I think it would be good for Denver to have a mayor that leans farther to the right when it comes to law enforcement.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Curtis Park

Not really a win, unless you live in Arapahoe Square. The camp just move outside of the cleanup area. Then they build over a number of weeks until they move. Take a look at Curtis Park, San Rafeal, RiNo, just about anyplace in Five Points. What would be less expensive than cleanups is enforcing the camping ban. But the rights of bike stealing methheads are more important than the property owners or the rest of the public.

City-wide frequent cleanup zone anyone?

Remember, the woke crowd cares more about drug addicts feeding their addiction through theft and terrorizing Denver citizens than anything else. The backlash is coming on this, but the money hose that's been directed at the issue this coming year might make a more measurable impact coupled with the coming reduction in PR bonding. However, concealed carry sounds better and better everyday.