OC Transpo

[lrt's friend]

As a result of reading the Citizen story, I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around service range for electric buses (mid 300 kms at 25C) and diesel buses (800 km) with a 5 hour recharge time on the electric buses. How do we maintain service levels with this kind of differential? Or will there be a means to reduce battery depletion during daily operations to extend the service range?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As a result of reading the Citizen story, I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around service range for electric buses (mid 300 kms at 25C) and diesel buses (800 km) with a 5 hour recharge time on the electric buses. How do we maintain service levels with this kind of differential? Or will there be a means to reduce battery depletion during daily operations to extend the service range?

My understanding from the report published earlier this year is that 60% of existing scheduled blocks operated by 40-foot buses only cover a distance that is within the range of these buses (about 260km), so there's effectively no offset for the time being.

We'll have to see how it plays out but there are a few possible options:

1. Battery tech improves
2. They install rapid chargers at major stations across the city
3. They buy buses with larger battery capacity

[roger1818]

I know electric buses use diesel for the heaters because most transit agencies already have infrastructure for it, but it really is a dirty fuel. It would be better if they could use something cleaner burning like propane.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

City rolling out electric buses early next year, though you can't quite call them 'zero-emission'
A diesel auxiliary heating system will be used to extend the buses' single-charge range on cold days.

Taylor Blewett, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Nov 26, 2021 • 15 hours ago • 3 minute read
. . .

“I’m not sure how you define higher pollution levels because pollution knows no boundary. It doesn’t stay in one ward or another,” Watson added. “So I think the reality is we want to try to get them on routes that the most number of people will see and use them and experience an electric bus.”

This shows a complete lack of understanding about air pollution by Watson. While it is true that pollution and haze can blow around, it tends to dissipate as it does so. Air pollution is strongest near busy roadways, especially when near large buildings that can reduce air flow and thus trap the pollution. There is a reason cities tend to be more polluted than rural areas.

Sounds to me like an excuse to direct the electric busses away from the core and out to the suburbs. In reality, there may be other factors that influence which routes are chosen, but I hope politics isn’t one of them.

[Truenorth00]

It also ignores noise pollution. Diesel buses thundering through urban canyons in the core, has a much higher noise impact, compared to out on suburban stroads.

Either way, it should be OC Transpo planners determining which routes are served with these buses. They need to get data and grow their base of knowledge, to improve subsequent procurements. It's still pretty basic right now, the chargers are only at depots. They'll need to plan for opportunity chargers at stations, layup areas and possibly even along different routes. Knowing where to stage infrastructure can't come without broad experience.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It also ignores noise pollution. Diesel buses thundering through urban canyons in the core, has a much higher noise impact, compared to out on suburban stroads.

True.

Either way, it should be OC Transpo planners determining which routes are served with these buses. They need to get data and grow their base of knowledge, to improve subsequent procurements. It's still pretty basic right now, the chargers are only at depots. They'll need to plan for opportunity chargers at stations, layup areas and possibly even along different routes. Knowing where to stage infrastructure can't come without broad experience.

Agreed. Given that it is the upgrades are to the St. Laurent Garage, They will likely be used more in the east end. I also suspect that initially they will be used on a lot of peak period routes, to allow the buses to recharge between the morning and evening runs, since at first they will only be able to charge at the garage.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As a result of reading the Citizen story, I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around service range for electric buses (mid 300 kms at 25C) and diesel buses (800 km) with a 5 hour recharge time on the electric buses. How do we maintain service levels with this kind of differential? Or will there be a means to reduce battery depletion during daily operations to extend the service range?

This is just uninformed reporting by the media. And to some extent uneducated procurement by OC Transpo. Mostly because OCT is basically procuring these first few as a trial, even if they aren't calling it that. Cold weather and range aren't issues if planned for. Edmonton, for example, got massive 660 kWh batteries on their buses to get themselves over 300 km of range all year round. And they are reporting that buses only need an hour on the fast charger mid-day. Really, electrifying the layup areas at stations, might be enough to keep buses going all day.

• Video Link

Great article on some of what ETS did:

https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/edmonton-electric-buses-proterra-ets-abb/

[rocketphish]

Fare-free transit doesn't give council a pass on LRT failings
Free month will test transit network's reliability

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Dec 01, 2021 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago

It's the first day of December, and this year, that marks the beginning of a first-ever full month of free transit in Ottawa.

The change offers commuters a chance to see whether or not light rail, ParaTranspo and other parts of the transit network can be relied upon.

But it likely won't hide that the offer of free OC Transpo and ParaTranspo service was political from the get-go.

The free month was approved back in mid-October, smack in the middle of a 54-day total LRT shutdown, when council had no idea when the trains would be running again — so from the start, the optics weren't great and had a certain whiff of distraction-ism about it.

For supporters, including Mayor Jim Watson and transit commission chair Coun. Allan Hubley, providing free transit was a gesture of apology and a way to coax more people back onto transit.

October ridership was at just 41 per cent of pre-pandemic levels, although some may have avoided transit while the LRT was down.

But for the six councillors who voted against it, the move was a gimmick.

To paraphrase Coun. Jeff Leiper, council could not put a price on the stress the struggling Confederation Line has caused riders in the past two years. And if you could put a price on it, it wouldn't be the price of a $122 monthly bus pass.

Coun. Catherine McKenney would rather have seen fares frozen for the entirety of 2022, while Coun. Carol Anne Meehan wanted to see the $7.2 million free fares will cost go toward buying more buses for times when the LRT will, in her view, invariably go down again.

The mayor accused them all of having "motion envy", and said they were voting against the free month of transit because it wasn't their idea.

Of course, Watson himself has voted against past suggestions of free fares when the idea was put forward by other councillors.

If the free month might be a balm to soothe the public's antagonism for the city's transit system, a meeting next week might reopen old wounds.

The finance and economic development committee will finally hear an update on the schedule for the Trillium Line extension. The city is supposed to take possession of the line in August 2022. But back in January, SNC-Lavalin told the city it was running at least four months late, which only came to light in a CBC story.

It's taken 10 months for the city's rail office to provide an update on the schedule, which will come Tuesday.

Between what SNC-Lavalin already told the city almost a year ago, and COVID-19 related supply-chain and labour issues, Trillium Line Stage 2 is unlikely to be on schedule.

And that could become a political problem, especially for members of council running in next fall's municipal election. With the public already frustrated over Line 1, politicians may find facing a delay on Line 2 hard to defend on the hustings.

There's nothing really wrong with offering riders free transit this month. Even McKenney, who voted against the measure, says it is a way for OC Transpo to look at how free fares affect how people travel.

And there's no reason people shouldn't take advantage of it, if they can.

But council shouldn't expect it to repair a relationship with commuters damaged from two years of Confederation Line troubles, nor should they count on anyone forgetting city officials knew the LRT was unreliable before it took possession of it in 2019. A provincial inquiry starting next year will make sure of that.

Because as council must surely know, in politics, there's no such thing as a free ride.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/free-transit-december-council-politics-1.6268158

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Fare-free transit doesn't give council a pass on LRT failings
Free month will test transit network's reliability

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Dec 01, 2021 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago

It's the first day of December, and this year, that marks the beginning of a first-ever full month of free transit in Ottawa.

The change offers commuters a chance to see whether or not light rail, ParaTranspo and other parts of the transit network can be relied upon.

But it likely won't hide that the offer of free OC Transpo and ParaTranspo service was political from the get-go.

The free month was approved back in mid-October, smack in the middle of a 54-day total LRT shutdown, when council had no idea when the trains would be running again — so from the start, the optics weren't great and had a certain whiff of distraction-ism about it.

For supporters, including Mayor Jim Watson and transit commission chair Coun. Allan Hubley, providing free transit was a gesture of apology and a way to coax more people back onto transit.

October ridership was at just 41 per cent of pre-pandemic levels, although some may have avoided transit while the LRT was down.

But for the six councillors who voted against it, the move was a gimmick.

To paraphrase Coun. Jeff Leiper, council could not put a price on the stress the struggling Confederation Line has caused riders in the past two years. And if you could put a price on it, it wouldn't be the price of a $122 monthly bus pass.

Coun. Catherine McKenney would rather have seen fares frozen for the entirety of 2022, while Coun. Carol Anne Meehan wanted to see the $7.2 million free fares will cost go toward buying more buses for times when the LRT will, in her view, invariably go down again.

The mayor accused them all of having "motion envy", and said they were voting against the free month of transit because it wasn't their idea.

Of course, Watson himself has voted against past suggestions of free fares when the idea was put forward by other councillors.

If the free month might be a balm to soothe the public's antagonism for the city's transit system, a meeting next week might reopen old wounds.

The finance and economic development committee will finally hear an update on the schedule for the Trillium Line extension. The city is supposed to take possession of the line in August 2022. But back in January, SNC-Lavalin told the city it was running at least four months late, which only came to light in a CBC story.

It's taken 10 months for the city's rail office to provide an update on the schedule, which will come Tuesday.

Between what SNC-Lavalin already told the city almost a year ago, and COVID-19 related supply-chain and labour issues, Trillium Line Stage 2 is unlikely to be on schedule.

And that could become a political problem, especially for members of council running in next fall's municipal election. With the public already frustrated over Line 1, politicians may find facing a delay on Line 2 hard to defend on the hustings.

There's nothing really wrong with offering riders free transit this month. Even McKenney, who voted against the measure, says it is a way for OC Transpo to look at how free fares affect how people travel.

And there's no reason people shouldn't take advantage of it, if they can.

But council shouldn't expect it to repair a relationship with commuters damaged from two years of Confederation Line troubles, nor should they count on anyone forgetting city officials knew the LRT was unreliable before it took possession of it in 2019. A provincial inquiry starting next year will make sure of that.

Because as council must surely know, in politics, there's no such thing as a free ride.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/free-transit-december-council-politics-1.6268158

Perhaps, the city will take possession of the Trillium Line in August, but it won't be in 2022. I drive by various locations of the construction regularly, and I cannot imagine it being ready for public use by September 2022 as originally promised.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Fare-free transit doesn't give council a pass on LRT failings
Free month will test transit network's reliability

Joanne Chianello · CBC News
Posted: Dec 01, 2021 4:00 AM ET | Last Updated: 1 hour ago
. . .

Coun. Catherine McKenney would rather have seen fares frozen for the entirety of 2022,

My thoughts exactly! A free month followed by a large fare increase is a slap in the face.

while Coun. Carol Anne Meehan wanted to see the $7.2 million free fares will cost go toward buying more buses for times when the LRT will, in her view, invariably go down again.

Extra buses isn't a bad idea either, though I would like to see more frequent service on existing routes.

The mayor accused them all of having "motion envy", and said they were voting against the free month of transit because it wasn't their idea.

First he mutes Coun. Diane Deans microphone in a council meeting, now he has this hissy fit. He really is disrespectful of other people's opinions.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

As a result of reading the Citizen story, I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around service range for electric buses (mid 300 kms at 25C) and diesel buses (800 km) with a 5 hour recharge time on the electric buses. How do we maintain service levels with this kind of differential? Or will there be a means to reduce battery depletion during daily operations to extend the service range?

LOL we don't.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

This shows a complete lack of understanding about air pollution by Watson. While it is true that pollution and haze can blow around, it tends to dissipate as it does so. Air pollution is strongest near busy roadways, especially when near large buildings that can reduce air flow and thus trap the pollution. There is a reason cities tend to be more polluted than rural areas.

That reason is that there's a lot more emissions, not because large buildings "trap" the pollution.

[Nowhere]

I took the 46 and the 291 between Herongate and Billings Bridge today and free transit definitively seems popular. I've been surprised by how empty the buses were around Herongate during the pandemic, even at rush hour, despite being a very low income neighbourhood. There was far more people today in buses and at Billings Bridge Station than usual.

[OttawaTransit99]

Does anyone on this forum know when or if OC Transpo is going to bring back high-floor buses and/or Nova low floor buses?

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by OttawaTransit99

Does anyone on this forum know when or if OC Transpo is going to bring back high-floor buses and/or Nova low floor buses?

I highly doubt you will ever see a new high floor bus in any city in Canada. Neither Nova or New Flyer or Alexander Dennis build High floor transit buses

As for Nova, city already has some - octranspo.com/en/our-services/bus-o-train-network/vehicles/

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

That reason is that there's a lot more emissions, not because large buildings "trap" the pollution.

But according to Watson, rural areas have equal pollution levels to urban areas, because the pollution blows around.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But according to Watson, rural areas have equal pollution levels to urban areas, because the pollution blows around.

The pollution argument aside, the routes which will have the worst fuel economy will be those in urban areas. Lots of stop and go. The best type of operation for electric buses.

I really hope they are letting the staff at OC Transpo run these trials and not directing them on where to deploy the buses, for political points.

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The pollution argument aside, the routes which will have the worst fuel economy will be those in urban areas. Lots of stop and go. The best type of operation for electric buses.

I really hope they are letting the staff at OC Transpo run these trials and not directing them on where to deploy the buses, for political points.

This is also a trial - restricting the buses to certain areas will limit the data gathered. It might make sense to deploy electric buses on urban routes in the future, but while they run the trial they need to be run on as many routes as possible. For example, running them only on urban routes, procuring hundreds of them and then finding out that they don't work well on suburban routes would be a bad idea.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Catenary

This is also a trial - restricting the buses to certain areas will limit the data gathered. It might make sense to deploy electric buses on urban routes in the future, but while they run the trial they need to be run on as many routes as possible.

I expressed the same idea earlier. It's obviously important for them to deploy the buses on a variety of routes across different seasons, to get data that helps inform future procurements.

The concern I have, is whether, they are facing political pressure to deploy buses according to political goals, rather than the needs of both the network and their analytical efforts.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The pollution argument aside, the routes which will have the worst fuel economy will be those in urban areas. Lots of stop and go. The best type of operation for electric buses.

I really hope they are letting the staff at OC Transpo run these trials and not directing them on where to deploy the buses, for political points.

It's all political no? I mean the cost per ton of carbon removed from such a project is astronomical. \

Actually noise and belching smoke wise it's the suburbs where it makes sense to put them. It's not like an electric bus followed by 5 18 whelers and 5 STO busses will be noticed on Rideau Street.