PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Yeah. In my ten years of driving back and forth to NYC I saw A street sweeper once on the shoulder of 95 as well (this was southbound near the Street Road exit).

I see a street sweeper or other highway maintenance vehicles (pickups picking up large debris, tractors with mower attachments) nearly every time I'm on the turnpike in NJ or in Delaware or Maryland on 95.

Nothing like spending a billion bucks on a brand new elevated highway and not maintaining it from day one. The feds should revoke funding from our projects until PennDot can prove it can maintain them.

Two things Jersey does right...

1.Legalized Mary

2.Maintains Highways so well you want to Picnic in the median.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The 30 mins isn't terrible, but getting off a flight, getting through everything and seeing the train leave as you walk outside knowing you've got to wait another 30 mins is a bit frustrating, though not the end of the world. The bigger issue is that if you have a flight leaving at 6am or getting in late, that train might be useless.


Two Cathedral Square looks great! More height is always welcomed, but if we can get a better quality design along the parkway at 400 ft, I'm all for it. Fingers crossed it turns out similar to the rendering.

it is commuter rail, it's not going to get shorter headways for a number of reasons. Its still a major convenience that provides a short, traffic free ride to center city. Other cities may have rapid transit connections nearby but you still wont get to their city centers faster due to distance. I rode the el in chicago from midway and its a 30-40 minute ride to the Loop. And the train sat at the airport for at least 10 minutes before departing.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Yeah. In my ten years of driving back and forth to NYC I saw A street sweeper once on the shoulder of 95 as well (this was southbound near the Street Road exit).

I see a street sweeper or other highway maintenance vehicles (pickups picking up large debris, tractors with mower attachments) nearly every time I'm on the turnpike in NJ or in Delaware or Maryland on 95.

Nothing like spending a billion bucks on a brand new elevated highway and not maintaining it from day one. The feds should revoke funding from our projects until PennDot can prove it can maintain them.

turnpikes are toll roads. Key difference- I'm sure you can figure it out. You dont see a lot of debris on the PA turnpike- which costs a fortune to use these days.....

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Sounds like we need to reroute these lines and build its own SEPTA ROW.

Spending money per train has to be more expensive than building new rails, it's non-sense Amtrak is even taxing SEPTA when trains benefit commuters and tourist bringing more money in.

It's a shame money is all that's looked at & common sense is looked down upon.

You are saying common sense would be to build a brand new rail line parallel to the NEC just avoid fees and run trains to the airport every 20 minutes??? I wouldnt call that common sense at all. The airport line is one of the best things the city (not SEPTA) has built in the last 40 years.

[DudeGuy]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Because the Airport Line requires passage over Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor, it requires Amtrak dispatching. By extension, this also incurs fees on SEPTA’s behalf (not to mention that Amtrak also provides electricity for the line, along with owning Track 2 into the airport and never using it).

Trains can’t run any more than they currently do because Amtrak will not allow its most profitable and efficient line be clogged with Airport Line trains. Operations have improved slightly since the realignment of Arsenal Interlocking (thereby separating the Media/Elwyn Line from the NEC, ensuring it needs no Amtrak dispatch), but any Airport train still must travel over a few miles of the NEC before taking the flyover and heading to the airport.

SEPTA themselves also probably don’t want to pay the obscene fees that come with running more trains. This is why the lowest farebox ratios belong to the Airport, CHW, and Cynwyd lines. All must go over Amtrak trackage and are also therefore dispatched by Amtrak. This is why CHW hasn’t returned to pre-COVID frequencies (the CHE doesn’t suffer from these issues, as it runs entirely on SEPTA ROW and uses SEPTA’s electricity).

In the old days, these lines (except the Airport Line) were all PRR, so there were no fees involved. Dispatchers would give non preferential treatment to trains, as they were all run by the same company.

Infrastructure-wise, the line could probably handle one more train an hour (headways of 20 mins) before causing severe congestion. I’ll be working on Arsenal Interlocking this summer so I’d be happy to report if any improvements are made specifically for the Airport Line.

Looking at the rails, it looks like there are at least 5 tracks from the point the flyover reaches the NEC to the point at which the rails separate into SEPTA again. Is there a reason that only 2 are being utilized for the NEC? Seems like a criminal underutilization of infrastructure.

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Because the Airport Line requires passage over Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor, it requires Amtrak dispatching. By extension, this also incurs fees on SEPTA’s behalf (not to mention that Amtrak also provides electricity for the line, along with owning Track 2 into the airport and never using it).

Trains can’t run any more than they currently do because Amtrak will not allow its most profitable and efficient line be clogged with Airport Line trains. Operations have improved slightly since the realignment of Arsenal Interlocking (thereby separating the Media/Elwyn Line from the NEC, ensuring it needs no Amtrak dispatch), but any Airport train still must travel over a few miles of the NEC before taking the flyover and heading to the airport.

SEPTA themselves also probably don’t want to pay the obscene fees that come with running more trains. This is why the lowest farebox ratios belong to the Airport, CHW, and Cynwyd lines. All must go over Amtrak trackage and are also therefore dispatched by Amtrak. This is why CHW hasn’t returned to pre-COVID frequencies (the CHE doesn’t suffer from these issues, as it runs entirely on SEPTA ROW and uses SEPTA’s electricity).

In the old days, these lines (except the Airport Line) were all PRR, so there were no fees involved. Dispatchers would give non preferential treatment to trains, as they were all run by the same company.

Infrastructure-wise, the line could probably handle one more train an hour (headways of 20 mins) before causing severe congestion. I’ll be working on Arsenal Interlocking this summer so I’d be happy to report if any improvements are made specifically for the Airport Line.

This is perfectly worded. Without divulging too far into what I do and who I work for, I am very much involved in this relationship. This isn't a knock against anyone here, but I don't believe the general public realizes the degree to which SEPTA's operations are beholden to Amtrak. Any SEPTA train that enters the Northeast Corridor or Keystone Line is subject to Amtrak's dispatching, which constitutes a pretty significant portion of delays among NEC commuter railroads. Additionally, each SEPTA train that travels along Amtrak territory drives up the propulsion, access, and capital costs that SEPTA must foot. If the general public knew as much as some of us in the transportation industry know about this relationship, then they would be furious.

In regards to the Airport Line, wouldn't the section between PHIL and 60th Street interlockings present a major operational challenge? I don't know why it was designed this way, but the ROW narrows to a single track between those two interlockings. The track area can't easily be expanded either, as the bridge that carries Elmwood Avenue over the ROW would need to be widened. I love the Airport Line and believe that it is a HUGE asset to the city and PHL (and the main reason why I prefer PHL over other US airports); however, I would love to see 15-20 minute headways if operationally possible.

[Redddog]

Amtrak has to be the worst run organization of all time. I'm convinced.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

Looking at the rails, it looks like there are at least 5 tracks from the point the flyover reaches the NEC to the point at which the rails separate into SEPTA again. Is there a reason that only 2 are being utilized for the NEC? Seems like a criminal underutilization of infrastructure.

1. Track 5 is actually not Amtrak, it’s Conrail owned and is NS/CSX’s access to the NEC to/from the high line. It is not electrified and can’t be used.

2. All four tracks are used by Amtrak between the Airport Flyover and 30th Street. However, the Airport Line has recently been restricted to using only Track 1. You’ll notice that when you take an inbound train that you are running on the “wrong side” of the NEC. Trains used to use a short connection to track 4 (still extant), but Amtrak canned that because it then required Airport Line trains to cross over all four tracks to get back to 30th, thereby effectively shutting down the NEC in that section.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Two things Jersey does right...

1.Legalized Mary

2.Maintains Highways so well you want to Picnic in the median.

I never understood the NJ is a dump comments I have heard many times over the years, as I find it to be overall much cleaner than PA (at least SEPA).

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

This is perfectly worded. Without divulging too far into what I do and who I work for, I am very much involved in this relationship. This isn't a knock against anyone here, but I don't believe the general public realizes the degree to which SEPTA's operations are beholden to Amtrak. Any SEPTA train that enters the Northeast Corridor or Keystone Line is subject to Amtrak's dispatching, which constitutes a pretty significant portion of delays among NEC commuter railroads. Additionally, each SEPTA train that travels along Amtrak territory drives up the propulsion, access, and capital costs that SEPTA must foot. If the general public knew as much as some of us in the transportation industry know about this relationship, then they would be furious.

In regards to the Airport Line, wouldn't the section between PHIL and 60th Street interlockings present a major operational challenge? I don't know why it was designed this way, but the ROW narrows to a single track between those two interlockings. The track area can't easily be expanded either, as the bridge that carries Elmwood Avenue over the ROW would need to be widened. I love the Airport Line and believe that it is a HUGE asset to the city and PHL (and the main reason why I prefer PHL over other US airports); however, I would love to see 15-20 minute headways if operationally possible.

You are correct. The flyover helps here, as an outbound train could hold on the bridge while the outbound train clears the line using the other turnout onto Track 4, or they could just schedule trains to pass on the two track section that then runs from 60th to KPHL.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by PHL10

That has happened to you? Once again, air travel takes so much planning, you can't remember that the trains go roughly on the hour and half past? If you are running late after de-planing, take your time. You are in an airport, not Siberia.

Yes probably 20 times. Take my time? I have emails to respond to, employees to check in with, kids to take care of at home - and 75 other things to do - taking time isn't part of most business traveler's equations. If you're 75 and a snowbird, and your way back from FLL, OK, but I don't see too many of them on the AP line.

The issue also becomes, you get off a 5 hour flight, you just miss the train and you got 28 minutes now to wait on a dull platform. You pull out your phone, see that an Uber costs $20 to get you to your hotel and you'll be there - door-to-door in 22minutes. You realize it's $7 for the airport train, there's two of you - so it's $14 - and there's no way it's worth the wait.

I wish they could find a way to turn it more into a shuttle - more frequencies, less cars, fare it out more like a subway ride and I think ridership would soar.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

turnpikes are toll roads. Key difference- I'm sure you can figure it out. You dont see a lot of debris on the PA turnpike- which costs a fortune to use these days.....

Yeah, whatever. You always have an excuse. Every interstate you drive on outside of Pennsylvania looks 1000% better than 95 or 76 in Pennsylvania.

I was just in Columbus OH two weekends ago. Highways also spotless. Maryland spotless. Delaware, close to spotless. Hell, even the Staten Island Expressway is spotless.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Yes probably 20 times. Take my time? I have emails to respond to, employees to check in with, kids to take care of at home - and 75 other things to do - taking time isn't part of most business traveler's equations. If you're 75 and a snowbird, and your way back from FLL, OK, but I don't see too many of them on the AP line.

I totally agree and this was my point earlier also and the lens you use while traveling for leisure is so much different than if it's for business; add on top of all of the basics maybe also being with and/or responsible for executives and their travel, trying to woo vendors and want to give them reasons to come back to your city...the things that may not matter as much while going to/from vacation suddenly matter a lot and little things can pile up quickly.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Yes probably 20 times. Take my time? I have emails to respond to, employees to check in with, kids to take care of at home - and 75 other things to do - taking time isn't part of most business traveler's equations. If you're 75 and a snowbird, and your way back from FLL, OK, but I don't see too many of them on the AP line.

The issue also becomes, you get off a 5 hour flight, you just miss the train and you got 28 minutes now to wait on a dull platform. You pull out your phone, see that an Uber costs $20 to get you to your hotel and you'll be there - door-to-door in 22minutes. You realize it's $7 for the airport train, there's two of you - so it's $14 - and there's no way it's worth the wait.

I wish they could find a way to turn it more into a shuttle - more frequencies, less cars, fare it out more like a subway ride and I think ridership would soar.

The times I have taken a taxi or Uber over the train had everything to do with crappy weather and not wanting to haul my luggage up to Suburban Station or back home from Suburban Station. Based on some of the comments, it seems that the issue with the train is that PHL is too close to Center City and therefore doesn't compete well with taxi and ride share.

The same scenario occurs with SEPTA inside CC. I have a family of four and if we're trying to get to Old City, I can take the 17 Bus but if the weather is —, I'm looking at $8.00 for SEPTA with a complaining family or a door-to-door Uber for $12.00. Easy choice but you can't blame SEPTA for that.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

I never understood the NJ is a dump comments I have heard many times over the years, as I find it to be overall much cleaner than PA (at least SEPA).

Ive lived in Jersey, went to school in Jersey & worked in Jersey.

Its a nice state don't get me wrong however they are ranked very low for small businesses, the police act like they are saving the world & paying a toll to get out of Jersey is the icing on the cake.

I'd Rather live in Philly than Jersey any day.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by cardeza

turnpikes are toll roads. Key difference- I'm sure you can figure it out. You dont see a lot of debris on the PA turnpike- which costs a fortune to use these days.....

Cardeza do you get outside much?

Going from Delaware to PA from I-95 OR I-495 there is a complete difference in PA highways & Delaware Highways from quality and cleanliness even crossing into Jersey there is a difference.

So your point is moot, PA just doesn't have enough money or budget regular cleanings for repairs for roads.

— look at the PENNDOT bridges almost all of them are rusty if they aren't new, you telling me they can't schedule a paint job for a bridge every 10 years? Every other state seems to have no issue.

[summersm343]

I’m a big proponent for Philadelphia and it’s Metropolitan area, and I think many things aren’t as bad as people in this area say they are… but the highways in this area (PA side of the metro) are god awful. Dirty and not well maintained at all. Penndot needs to step it the F up.

There’s a very clear delineation in highway quality when traveling from NJ to PA, or DE to PA.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^Veritas.

[arkitect13]

Sorry to go off topic from the convo, but has anyone heard any news on that office tower by the franklin institute? it was 15 stories and I think 260 feet? I saw they found a place to move that historical gas station but have heard nothing in almost 1 1/2 years at least

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

turnpikes are toll roads. Key difference- I'm sure you can figure it out. You dont see a lot of debris on the PA turnpike- which costs a fortune to use these days.....

Your bizarre defenses of the indefensible continues to astound. Who would take the positions you take? I don't really care about how clean the highways are. But they're undeniably incredibly filthy to an almost absurd extent. I rarely get on 95, but when I do I'll frequently see large pieces of debris like entire bumpers, a giant shredded tire, etc. and then next time I use the highway weeks later, they'll still just be there. Saying the highway shoulders are dirty is really an incredible understatement. They're downright hazardous.

I've decided that there's only one explanation for someone who seems personally offended by every even mild criticism of philly, someone who has an excuse for every — decision this city has ever made. Somehow, and I truly don't know how, but the city of Philadelphia itself has gained sentience and has created skyscraper page account. My best guess is some old supercomputer in city hall got struck by lightening and this is the result.