PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

TBH, if Penndot actually sent a street sweeper periodically down the shoulder of 95 which I don't think it's done in this decade, that would get us 90% of the way there.

I've graduated past the powerline obsession (though some of you have not). My new neurosis is the absolutely filthy (lack of) repair of Pennsylvania's highway shoulders. They're disgusting and an embarrassment. Whoever the head of PennDot is should be fired.

I guarantee you their street sweepers sit parked 80% of the time. Probably no show patronage jobs.

I saw A street sweeper and a few PennDOT trucks on the shoulder of I95 north when I was coming back to center city about a month ago. They do clean the shoulders but not as much as we would like. It obviously not a high budget priority in this state vs some others.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by Vince_

PHL has had some great renovations inside over the last 5 years but the outside is not great. The arrivals road / parking garage area is especially dreary. Planters and better lighting would help a lot. Then you have that mural on the exterior on the parking garages which I think is the worst work Mural Arts program has ever done.



It's too dark and too complicated to see what it is. Imagine if we had something bright and cool like David Guinn's art:




Lastly, the entrance roads and exterior from 95 could be way nicer with some simple additions.

LAX:
San Fran:
DC has some nice planters on the sides of the parking garages: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/...jlHKDcWClbmW9oeDSHCrBClrLKuYbOVflj1eEqAE

PHS held a competition for better landscaping around PHL but nothing ever happened.



https://www.mnlandscape.com/projects/phl_imagemaker_take_off_from_here_design_competition

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...ge-maker-landscape-design-olin-mnla.html

Wasn't there a proposal to extend at least one of the runways to allow for larger planes?
This sounds like something that could happen with the infrastructure bill if we have someone pushing for it.
I think Philly Airport is underestimated and should push for a more prominent role in the NE Airports.
Halfway between NYC and DC, it should be striving for a larger role.
I always wished Acela actually had a station at the Airport attracting more flyers.

[arkitect13]

What ever happened to that landscape redesign plan? there's been no updates since they said they would select the winning bid

[Justin7]

I think PHL is fine, but Septa's airport line needs to run later and more frequently.

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

Tom Brady International Terminal

lol

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

I think PHL is fine, but Septa's airport line needs to run later and more frequently.



lol

It can’t—that’s the problem.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Wasn't there a proposal to extend at least one of the runways to allow for larger planes?
This sounds like something that could happen with the infrastructure bill if we have someone pushing for it.
I think Philly Airport is underestimated and should push for a more prominent role in the NE Airports.
Halfway between NYC and DC, it should be striving for a larger role.
I always wished Acela actually had a station at the Airport attracting more flyers.

One of the runways was just extended, I think it was finished just prior to the pandemic. AFAIK it's long enough now to handle flights to/from anywhere in the world, they just need an airline to actually schedule them.

[JohnIII]

I do know there was landscaping planned but never done however I'm very interested in the planned expansion of the runways as well as adding a runway to the east over the current UPS location

Philadelphia has a good airport; compare to most places in the world I've traveled its one of the best; I'd say its in the upper 40% or higher. If they can cut down on the delays and be used more it will be great.

I know this is a skyscraper page so Philadelphia International is off topic a bit however I wonder about the future of the International Airport in the broader scheme of the Philadelphia region. There are plans to expand Trenton, Wilmington, even Philadelphia Northeast; will any of these airports expand to garner a principle airline carrier?
Is such competition good for the growth of Philadelphia International? Can we see what Washington DC sees with Dulles and Ronald Reagan or what Paris sees with DeGaulle and Orly? (Paris is building a 3rd airport to the east of the city)

Also, how will plans in the now defunct refinery help Philadelphia International?

Never stop planning and working for the city of tomorrow!

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

It can’t—that’s the problem.

(Not directed at McGrath who is answering the technical question.)

But even if it could, has the 30 minute frequency ever cramped anyone's style? I mean you need to get to the train station itself first and then you have to check in at least 45 minutes before domestic flights and you're really relying on security not being backed up at that point. So is the additional planning really going to hurt anything? "—, now I have to leave the house 5 minutes earlier than I thought based on the train schedule. If only it ran every 15 minutes!" For arriving flights, it takes 15 minutes just to deplane if you're in the back, then walk through the terminal, and possibility to baggage claim. Most use the restroom in that period as well. One input can't be that the train comes on the hour and at 30 minutes after the hour? Even if you had a brain fart, statistically, you would have a 50% chance of a wait less than 15 minutes....after spending hours since leaving for your home airport that day, check-in, security lines, putting latops in Tupperware bins, zoned boarding lines, safety talks, beverage services, cramped smelly airplane restroom, fighting over arm rests, etc., etc. but oh no, all that is nothing compared to waiting between 0-29 minutes for a train that I couldn't be bothered to check the schedule for.

I'm not calling anyone out but are any of you detractors actually users of the AP Line? If so, I'd like to hear some specifics on how 30 minute headways creates a problem that is even an afterthought compared to all the logistics of taking a commercial flight.

I’d argue that some Regional Rail lines having 2 hour headways for the entirety of Saturday to be a bigger problem to solve.

Originally Posted by Justin7

I think PHL is fine, but Septa's airport line needs to run later and more frequently.

The last train leaving the airport is 12:07am (7 days). What am I missing?

[summersm343]

You didn't get this from me.

Will be called Two Cathedral Square. Doesn't look 600 FT, but looks to be over 400 FT.

[summersm343]

Correction. It's 470 Feet tall. I'll share more soon.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by PHL10

(Not directed at McGrath who is answering the technical question.)

But even if it could, has the 30 minute frequency ever cramped anyone's style? I mean you need to get to the train station itself first and then you have to check in at least 45 minutes before domestic flights and you're really relying on security not being backed up at that point. So is the additional planning really going to hurt anything? "—, now I have to leave the house 5 minutes earlier than I thought based on the train schedule. If only it ran every 15 minutes!" For arriving flights, it takes 15 minutes just to deplane if you're in the back, then walk through the terminal, and possibility to baggage claim. Most use the restroom in that period as well. One input can't be that the train comes on the hour and at 30 minutes after the hour? Even if you had a brain fart, statistically, you would have a 50% chance of a wait less than 15 minutes....after spending hours since leaving for your home airport that day, check-in, security lines, putting latops in Tupperware bins, zoned boarding lines, safety talks, beverage services, cramped smelly airplane restroom, fighting over arm rests, etc., etc. but oh no, all that is nothing compared to waiting between 0-29 minutes for a train that I couldn't be bothered to check the schedule for.

I'm not calling anyone out but are any of you detractors actually users of the AP Line? If so, I'd like to hear some specifics on how 30 minute headways creates a problem that is even an afterthought compared to all the logistics of taking a commercial flight.

I’d argue that some Regional Rail lines having 2 hour headways for the entirety of Saturday to be a bigger problem to solve.



The last train leaving the airport is 12:07am (7 days). What am I missing?

The 30 mins isn't terrible, but getting off a flight, getting through everything and seeing the train leave as you walk outside knowing you've got to wait another 30 mins is a bit frustrating, though not the end of the world. The bigger issue is that if you have a flight leaving at 6am or getting in late, that train might be useless.


Two Cathedral Square looks great! More height is always welcomed, but if we can get a better quality design along the parkway at 400 ft, I'm all for it. Fingers crossed it turns out similar to the rendering.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Correction. It's 470 Feet tall. I'll share more soon.

Wow, I think it's great height for that area. A modern designed complement to the Alexander.

[summersm343]

^^More posted in the Two Cathedral Square thread here:
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225593

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The 30 mins isn't terrible, but getting off a flight, getting through everything and seeing the train leave as you walk outside knowing you've got to wait another 30 mins is a bit frustrating, though not the end of the world.

That has happened to you? Once again, air travel takes so much planning, you can't remember that the trains go roughly on the hour and half past? If you are running late after de-planing, take your time. You are in an airport, not Siberia.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The bigger issue is that if you have a flight leaving at 6am or getting in late, that train might be useless.

This happened to you? It's a big issue? Once again, putting forth fringe scenarios to diminish how effective that train is, isn't fair. There are literally hundreds of flights departing PHL daily. Trying to paint some scenario where the weary traveler is wandering the streets of Center City at 3am and frustrated that Suburban Station is locked as he tries to catch a 5:30am flight. It also appears that about 5 flights arriving today would be too late to for the last night to Center City. So 95+% of the flights are conducive for the train schedule but we need to run them an extra 4 hours in the middle of the night in order to knock down unfair criticisms.

There are plenty of shortcomings in SEPTA's system. The AP line isn't one of them, sorry.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by PHL10

That has happened to you? Once again, air travel takes so much planning, you can't remember that the trains go roughly on the hour and half past? If you are running late after de-planing, take your time. You are in an airport, not Siberia.



This happened to you? It's a big issue? Once again, putting forth fringe scenarios to diminish how effective that train is, isn't fair. There are literally hundreds of flights departing PHL daily. Trying to paint some scenario where the weary traveler is wandering the streets of Center City at 3am and frustrated that Suburban Station is locked as he tries to catch a 5:30am flight. It also appears that about 5 flights arriving today would be too late to for the last night to Center City. So 95+% of the flights are conducive for the train schedule but we need to run them an extra 4 hours in the middle of the night in order to knock down unfair criticisms.

There are plenty of shortcomings in SEPTA's system. The AP line isn't one of them, sorry.

Yes, both have happened to me, though I did not get stranded at Suburban, instead I had family drive in from the suburbs to drop me off at the airport. I'm not against the line, but the time constraints are annoying.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by PHL10

(Not directed at McGrath who is answering the technical question.)

But even if it could, has the 30 minute frequency ever cramped anyone's style? I mean you need to get to the train station itself first and then you have to check in at least 45 minutes before domestic flights and you're really relying on security not being backed up at that point. So is the additional planning really going to hurt anything? "—, now I have to leave the house 5 minutes earlier than I thought based on the train schedule. If only it ran every 15 minutes!" For arriving flights, it takes 15 minutes just to deplane if you're in the back, then walk through the terminal, and possibility to baggage claim. Most use the restroom in that period as well. One input can't be that the train comes on the hour and at 30 minutes after the hour? Even if you had a brain fart, statistically, you would have a 50% chance of a wait less than 15 minutes....after spending hours since leaving for your home airport that day, check-in, security lines, putting latops in Tupperware bins, zoned boarding lines, safety talks, beverage services, cramped smelly airplane restroom, fighting over arm rests, etc., etc. but oh no, all that is nothing compared to waiting between 0-29 minutes for a train that I couldn't be bothered to check the schedule for.

I'm not calling anyone out but are any of you detractors actually users of the AP Line? If so, I'd like to hear some specifics on how 30 minute headways creates a problem that is even an afterthought compared to all the logistics of taking a commercial flight.

I’d argue that some Regional Rail lines having 2 hour headways for the entirety of Saturday to be a bigger problem to solve.



The last train leaving the airport is 12:07am (7 days). What am I missing?

Originally Posted by PHL10

That has happened to you? Once again, air travel takes so much planning, you can't remember that the trains go roughly on the hour and half past? If you are running late after de-planing, take your time. You are in an airport, not Siberia.



This happened to you? It's a big issue? Once again, putting forth fringe scenarios to diminish how effective that train is, isn't fair. There are literally hundreds of flights departing PHL daily. Trying to paint some scenario where the weary traveler is wandering the streets of Center City at 3am and frustrated that Suburban Station is locked as he tries to catch a 5:30am flight. It also appears that about 5 flights arriving today would be too late to for the last night to Center City. So 95+% of the flights are conducive for the train schedule but we need to run them an extra 4 hours in the middle of the night in order to knock down unfair criticisms.

There are plenty of shortcomings in SEPTA's system. The AP line isn't one of them, sorry.

These posts are so bizarre.

People run late. Often. You can sit there and judge but it's not going to change anything. Missing a train with 30 minute headways could lead to a missed flight and even if it doesn't, who wants to sit and wait for a train for 25 minutes? So what do people do? If they own a car they drive. Then they complain about parking. Or they take an uber/lyft/cab they maybe can't afford.

Or maybe you're a punctual person with means and simply decide driving is substantially more convenient. So you drive. And add to congestion. And add to pollution and climate change. Then complain about parking.

I could go on for a while, but your argument here seems to be essentially "flying is so inconvenient so why does adding more inconvenience matter?" It seems to me that if you find flying inconvenient that is more of a reason to reduce further inconvenience." Basically, we want to incentivize the use public transportation, which means improving convenience. Thirty minutes is absolutely too long. Just because something is not a problem for your personally doesn't mean it's not a problem.

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

It can’t—that’s the problem.

Can you expound on this or point me somewhere with detail?

[mcgrath618]

Because the Airport Line requires passage over Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor, it requires Amtrak dispatching. By extension, this also incurs fees on SEPTA’s behalf (not to mention that Amtrak also provides electricity for the line, along with owning Track 2 into the airport and never using it).

Trains can’t run any more than they currently do because Amtrak will not allow its most profitable and efficient line be clogged with Airport Line trains. Operations have improved slightly since the realignment of Arsenal Interlocking (thereby separating the Media/Elwyn Line from the NEC, ensuring it needs no Amtrak dispatch), but any Airport train still must travel over a few miles of the NEC before taking the flyover and heading to the airport.

SEPTA themselves also probably don’t want to pay the obscene fees that come with running more trains. This is why the lowest farebox ratios belong to the Airport, CHW, and Cynwyd lines. All must go over Amtrak trackage and are also therefore dispatched by Amtrak. This is why CHW hasn’t returned to pre-COVID frequencies (the CHE doesn’t suffer from these issues, as it runs entirely on SEPTA ROW and uses SEPTA’s electricity).

In the old days, these lines (except the Airport Line) were all PRR, so there were no fees involved. Dispatchers would give non preferential treatment to trains, as they were all run by the same company.

Infrastructure-wise, the line could probably handle one more train an hour (headways of 20 mins) before causing severe congestion. I’ll be working on Arsenal Interlocking this summer so I’d be happy to report if any improvements are made specifically for the Airport Line.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Justin7

These posts are so bizarre.

I’m just being an old man. Sometimes I see idealism attacking something that isn’t really a problem in my view. I had suspected that much of the criticism is based on some perceived issue rather than a practical one made by actual users of the system. My only point is that people put up with tremendous obstacles and the time consuming/wasting process of air travel without much protest while being overly critical of some aspect of another mode of transport that supports the first.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I saw A street sweeper and a few PennDOT trucks on the shoulder of I95 north when I was coming back to center city about a month ago. They do clean the shoulders but not as much as we would like. It obviously not a high budget priority in this state vs some others.

Yeah. In my ten years of driving back and forth to NYC I saw A street sweeper once on the shoulder of 95 as well (this was southbound near the Street Road exit).

I see a street sweeper or other highway maintenance vehicles (pickups picking up large debris, tractors with mower attachments) nearly every time I'm on the turnpike in NJ or in Delaware or Maryland on 95.

Nothing like spending a billion bucks on a brand new elevated highway and not maintaining it from day one. The feds should revoke funding from our projects until PennDot can prove it can maintain them.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Because the Airport Line requires passage over Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor, it requires Amtrak dispatching. By extension, this also incurs fees on SEPTA’s behalf (not to mention that Amtrak also provides electricity for the line, along with owning Track 2 into the airport and never using it).

Trains can’t run any more than they currently do because Amtrak will not allow its most profitable and efficient line be clogged with Airport Line trains. Operations have improved slightly since the realignment of Arsenal Interlocking (thereby separating the Media/Elwyn Line from the NEC, ensuring it needs no Amtrak dispatch), but any Airport train still must travel over a few miles of the NEC before taking the flyover and heading to the airport.

SEPTA themselves also probably don’t want to pay the obscene fees that come with running more trains. This is why the lowest farebox ratios belong to the Airport, CHW, and Cynwyd lines. All must go over Amtrak trackage and are also therefore dispatched by Amtrak. This is why CHW hasn’t returned to pre-COVID frequencies (the CHE doesn’t suffer from these issues, as it runs entirely on SEPTA ROW and uses SEPTA’s electricity).

In the old days, these lines (except the Airport Line) were all PRR, so there were no fees involved. Dispatchers would give non preferential treatment to trains, as they were all run by the same company.

Infrastructure-wise, the line could probably handle one more train an hour (headways of 20 mins) before causing severe congestion. I’ll be working on Arsenal Interlocking this summer so I’d be happy to report if any improvements are made specifically for the Airport Line.

Sounds like we need to reroute these lines and build its own SEPTA ROW.

Spending money per train has to be more expensive than building new rails, it's non-sense Amtrak is even taxing SEPTA when trains benefit commuters and tourist bringing more money in.

It's a shame money is all that's looked at & common sense is looked down upon.