PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[700 Level]

I generally agree with the comments above. As someone who travels often, I would put PHL as above average.

One of the reasons it has generated criticism in the past is because of the runway congestion. Like other northeast airports, it doesn't take much in the way of disruptions to create a huge backlog in takeoffs. (Remember the days of pulling onto the tarmac and hearing "we are 27th in line for takeoff"). But one positive side effect of the reduction in flights is that there is a lot less pressure on the runway traffic. I have not experienced those types of delays in a long time (and they were at one time almost routine). Without those delays, PHL provides a well above average experience.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

It's funny because within all of these comments there are many that are basically saying the same thing as me and they don't love it, don't hate it, it's middle of the road. But it has had some real issues over the years. Is it better? Sounds like it (I have not flown out of it in over a year and when I do next I will be sure to see what's been going on). Can it keep improving? Of course.


Exactly and if one has been flying out of PHL for decades there is a much bigger experience pool to draw from vs what may have been happening only within the last few years.

HBG, while I love ya, it was this comment you made:

"Dirty in many spots, rude staff, shuttle nightmares (I have a fun story from when we had to take one from one terminal to another), homeless people hanging around (although this has since been addressed within the last year but I cannot confirm the results, as I haven't flown out of there within the last year), baggage being tampered with and items stolen from it..."

It's just not accurate. Maybe once upon a time, but not now.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by 700 Level

One of the reasons it has generated criticism in the past is because of the runway congestion. Like other northeast airports, it doesn't take much in the way of disruptions to create a huge backlog in takeoffs. (Remember the days of pulling onto the tarmac and hearing "we are 27th in line for takeoff"). But one positive side effect of the reduction in flights is that there is a lot less pressure on the runway traffic. I have not experienced those types of delays in a long time (and they were at one time almost routine). Without those delays, PHL provides a well above average experience.

This was a big one and our travelers started going through Allentown to avoid this. But yes I have heard that this has improved and that's great.

Originally Posted by summersm343

HBG, while I love ya, it was this comment you made:

"Dirty in many spots, rude staff, shuttle nightmares (I have a fun story from when we had to take one from one terminal to another), homeless people hanging around (although this has since been addressed within the last year but I cannot confirm the results, as I haven't flown out of there within the last year), baggage being tampered with and items stolen from it..."

It's just not accurate. Maybe once upon a time, but not now.

It is accurate for the duration of my time flying out of PHL. And you don't even need to take my word for it, countless stories out there. So because today it is different all the bad experiences there are now null and void? Odd logic. Any improvement will take time to shift bad experiences and I am glad that some of you have not encountered what I had described but for many of us over the years, we have.

But it sounds like they took the downtime during the pandemic to clean up a bit and I am looking forward to my next flight out of this now super duper awesome airport with absolutely no issues at all some folks are raving about

[PhilliesPhan]

I've been flying LOT recently. Just last week, I flew PHL-LAX on American. Like the majority of posters here, I honestly don't understand the extreme PHL hate either. PHL isn't the best airport I've ever flown into/out of (that title goes to either Toronto-Pearson or Charles de Gaulle), it is FAR from the worst. In fact, I found PHL to be superior to LAX after my last trip. Not only did PHL have better food options (I found the options in the Tom Brady International Terminal to be severely lacking compared to Terminal A), but the ground transportation at PHL is vastly superior. Traveling from LAX to Downtown LA takes SO long compared to simply hopping on the Airport Line and arriving at Suburban Station.

In terms of rude staff, it's easy for me to avoid them: if I check-in and pay for my bag ahead of the flight, then all I need to do is print my bag tag and hand the bag over to the counter agent. I haven't had a bad experience with agents working for American or Southwest yet (I've also flown Air France and Air Canada, but not out of PHL). I also haven't had a bad experience with the food staff out of Terminals A, B, E, or F yet, aside from food that just barely arrived before my flight to Bangor, ME out of Terminal F.

While I do agree that PHL could benefit from a more visionary capital program and a much-needed expansion, it is ahead of many airports within its class. I just wish that international flights to Europe didn't cost up to $300 more out of PHL than out of JFK!

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

My only gripe with PHL is the check in experience. When you walk into the arrivals halls to check in, you're literally smashed up against the check in lines. There is no breathing room and it doesn't give you the sense that you're about to embark on a fun experience (i.e. traveling). I do love when you go to catch a flight at an airport and the room sort of opens up upon arrival, to give a sense of adventure and possibility. At PHL, it's very meh. Like an afterthought.

But my overall experience with the airport is generally good. Also, super underrated that you can basically get there from Center City in like 8 minutes.

Yeah, I agree with this. And I'll even go a step further and say that in general the entire airport (minus A-West) feels a bit more cramped than I would like. I wish they could find a way to make all the hallways a foot or two wider and add an extra row or two of seats in all the gate areas. But of course, there's no way to actually do any of that, and this is a minor gripe at most (IMO).

Edit: That said, as someone who rarely ever checks a bag, going up the stairs from the B/C entrance to the precheck only security line is smooth and makes for an easy entrance. So in that respect, I actually don't mind the fact that the check-in spaces are literally right there. (Pro-tip: If you're flying American, you can check your bag at any check-in counter at PHL. Can be helpful if you want to get food at B/C before flying out of F, or something like that.)

Originally Posted by 700 Level

I generally agree with the comments above. As someone who travels often, I would put PHL as above average.

One of the reasons it has generated criticism in the past is because of the runway congestion. Like other northeast airports, it doesn't take much in the way of disruptions to create a huge backlog in takeoffs. (Remember the days of pulling onto the tarmac and hearing "we are 27th in line for takeoff"). But one positive side effect of the reduction in flights is that there is a lot less pressure on the runway traffic. I have not experienced those types of delays in a long time (and they were at one time almost routine). Without those delays, PHL provides a well above average experience.

The first time I ever flew was PHL-LAX and we sat on the tarmac for ~3 hours before taking off. Wonderful start to what is already a very long flight, lol. But I haven't experienced anything like that in a while. I think the US/AA merger was one of the best things to happen for PHL tbh since AA has actually improved a lot on the performance we used to get from US Airways.

[3rd&Brown]

I've been to a lot of airports, globally. I can't remember them all, but have probably been to at least 50, some long ago so can't remember them at all.

In the last 5 years, I'd say my favorites have been Hong Kong, Madrid, abroad. And (the new) LaGuardia, here.

The amenities in Hong Kong are bonkers. If you're flying business class, you've never seen anything like the lounges in the Hong Kong airport. I would get there 5 hours before my flight because the experience is next level. Like a 5 star hotel.

Madrid has this sweeping expanse of a building which looks like tents in the middle of the desert. And the best part is, inside it feels the same way as well. The ceilings tower far above the ground in nearly every part of the airport. It feels really grand, yet is reflective of the local culture and landscape.

People really love or hate Charles DeGaul. TBH, both assessments are true. If you fly Air France, you'll love it. If you fly anything else, it's a dump. And as with many big airports, at least from what I can remember, the terminals don't connect. So it's not like if you're in a crappy terminal you can walk over to the Air France terminal to hang out there. They're completely distinct. (Edit: I think Delta at times gets to shuttle into the Air France terminal because of it's code sharing agreement. The other major American airlines def to the sh*tty old terminal.)

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

This was a big one and our travelers started going through Allentown to avoid this. But yes I have heard that this has improved and that's great.


It is accurate for the duration of my time flying out of PHL. And you don't even need to take my word for it, countless stories out there. So because today it is different all the bad experiences there are now null and void? Odd logic. Any improvement will take time to shift bad experiences and I am glad that some of you have not encountered what I had described but for many of us over the years, we have.

But it sounds like they took the downtime during the pandemic to clean up a bit and I am looking forward to my next flight out of this now super duper awesome airport with absolutely no issues at all some folks are raving about

Sooooo, now you're saying Allentown is a better airport than PHL?

When's the last time you've actually flown out of PHL dude? I'm not saying it's perfect, and its rainbows and butterflies, but it's certainly a nice airport that's far better than the way you described it.... and for US standards, it's a nice airport and doesn't deserve the hate.

I'm not talking about the last year either. I've been flying out of PHL my entire life. I certainly don't remember it from when I was younger, but I can clearly remember the last 10 years at least of travel through PHL, and I've never had an issue, have never seen homeless people, can't recall anything I would call dirty, never had anything stolen from my bags, etc. Have I waited for luggage a little longer than necessary sometimes? Sure, but the longest I've waited for luggage BY FAR was at LAX. Have I sat on the tarmac a few times longer than should be? Sure, but the longest I've sat on the tarmac BY FAR was at Denver International.

Again, sorry these things happened to you, maybe you're an extremely unlucky person.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Sooooo, now you're saying Allentown is a better airport than PHL?

When's the last time you've actually flown out of PHL dude? I'm not saying it's perfect, and its rainbows and butterflies, but it's certainly a nice airport that's far better than the way you described it.... and for US standards, it's a nice airport and doesn't deserve the hate.

I'm not talking about the last year either. I've been flying out of PHL my entire life. I certainly don't remember it from when I was younger, but I can clearly remember the last 10 years at least of travel through PHL, and I've never had an issue, have never seen homeless people, can't recall anything I would call dirty, never had anything stolen from my bags, etc. Have I waited for luggage a little longer than necessary sometimes? Sure, but the longest I've waited for luggage BY FAR was at LAX. Have I sat on the tarmac a few times longer than should be? Sure, but the longest I've sat on the tarmac BY FAR was at Denver International.

Again, sorry these things happened to you, maybe you're an extremely unlucky person.

Seriously. If you're going "out of Allentown" to avoid PHL, that basically means you're probably flying to Orlando or Las Vegas. So in other words, you're not really a traveler. These aren't even remotely interchangeable alternatives. If you have a flight to LAX or Paris, it's not like you can say, oh yeah, I hate PHL. Let's go from Allentown on what, Spirit instead?

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Sooooo, now you're saying Allentown is a better airport than PHL?

Your interpretation of the things I say is odd and you make a lot of leaps.

Again, sorry these things happened to you, maybe you're an extremely unlucky person.

Yep you're right. The universe only singled me and the many travelers over the years out but only at the PHL airport. And I guess you must be an extremely lucky person then?

Anyway, there is not much more that I can say on this topic and I am surprised the mods allowed this to go on for so long ha ha! I am glad that you love the PHL airport and it's been great to you and I wish you many more happy flights from it.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Seriously. If you're going "out of Allentown" to avoid PHL, that basically means you're probably flying to Orlando or Las Vegas. So in other words, you're not really a traveler. These aren't even remotely interchangeable alternatives. If you have a flight to LAX or Paris, it's not like you can say, oh yeah, I hate PHL. Let's go from Allentown on what, Spirit instead?

Incorrect. Oh the irony of saying someone is not a traveler and then you make statements like this And a few of you seem to be missing a big connection (pun intended) between regular business travel and flying for leisure.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Raja

Yeah, I don't understand the extreme comments on either side. PHL is ho hum. Better than average for food, convenience, and security. Average for cleanliness, design/architecture, technology, and delays. Below average for baggage handling (my god the baggage handling is always a clusterf**k, and the slowest of any airport ever). International terminal (A West) and Terminal F are the best. C and D are the worst. It was dirty during COVID, but it's gotten better.

Totally agree about this weekend. Had some friends from college here and it was rocking. Huge lines for all the attractions. Restaurants and bars overflowing. People dressed to impress. Anti-social crap at a minimum, or at least less noticeable. It felt pre-pandemic.

I noticed the dressed to impress part too! I felt like I was strolling around Soho at times seeing so many people looking all snazzy.

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Yeah. I've actually always been a devotee of LaGuardia. When you live in Queens or Brooklyn it's super easy to get into and out of, even in relative terms when it was under construction.

But now it's just drop dead. Awe inspiring. For sure the nicest airport in the country (though I haven't been to the new MSY).

Even Manhattan, I love flying out of LGA, it's convenient for me, and I always get upgraded (compared to EWR). I only like Newark for the United Polaris Lounge which is for First Class International, and Terminal C is decent since United did an overall. Terminals A & B are dumps.

I flew into/out of MSY last month, it is very nice, but I still like the LGA more, better flow.

One thing PHL needs is CLEAR, hopefully it comes soon. It will also be great once PHL expands it's international offerings through AA, I am hoping for a major boom in the mid 2020s.

[Mark in Mount Airy]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

It's funny because within all of these comments there are many that are basically saying the same thing as me and they don't love it, don't hate it, it's middle of the road. But it has had some real issues over the years. Is it better? Sounds like it (I have not flown out of it in over a year and when I do next I will be sure to see what's been going on). Can it keep improving? Of course.


Exactly and if one has been flying out of PHL for decades there is a much bigger experience pool to draw from vs what may have been happening only within the last few years.

I've regularly flown out of PHL since 1993 and have over 1 million miles logged collectively. The two worst problems at PHL historically were delays and crappy concessions. Delays were largely caused by our only having four runways, and fewer functional runways than that in bad weather. The concessions are pretty darn good these days, and the problem of delays has been abated because of COVID-era flight cancellations. So I don't get the h8 either for PHL -- I am completely happy to use it, though I never have to change planes here. What I do think PHL officials must do is to move forward on adding the fifth runway, an effort which was halted very late in the pre-construction process due to griping by airlines who didn't want to pay the higher user fees to create more space for other airlines to expand and compete against them. There is reason to suspect that we will be back to chronic flight delays in a few years, and PHL officials have plans to greatly expand cargo flights which will make things only worse.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Mark in Mount Airy

I've regularly flown out of PHL since 1993 and have over 1 million miles logged collectively. The two worst problems at PHL historically were delays and crappy concessions. Delays were largely caused by our only having four runways, and fewer functional runways than that in bad weather. The concessions are pretty darn good these days, and the problem of delays has been abated because of COVID-era flight cancellations. So I don't get the h8 either for PHL -- I am completely happy to use it, though I never have to change planes here. What I do think PHL officials must do is to move forward on adding the fifth runway, an effort which was halted very late in the pre-construction process due to griping by airlines who didn't want to pay the higher user fees to create more space for other airlines to expand and compete against them. There is reason to suspect that we will be back to chronic flight delays in a few years, and PHL officials have plans to greatly expand cargo flights which will make things only worse.

Would be a good use of infrastructure $.

[Vince_]

PHL has had some great renovations inside over the last 5 years but the outside is not great. The arrivals road / parking garage area is especially dreary. Planters and better lighting would help a lot. Then you have that mural on the exterior on the parking garages which I think is the worst work Mural Arts program has ever done.



It's too dark and too complicated to see what it is. Imagine if we had something bright and cool like David Guinn's art:




Lastly, the entrance roads and exterior from 95 could be way nicer with some simple additions.

LAX:
San Fran:
DC has some nice planters on the sides of the parking garages: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/...jlHKDcWClbmW9oeDSHCrBClrLKuYbOVflj1eEqAE

PHS held a competition for better landscaping around PHL but nothing ever happened.



https://www.mnlandscape.com/projects/phl_imagemaker_take_off_from_here_design_competition

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia...ge-maker-landscape-design-olin-mnla.html

[FtGreeneNY]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

People really love or hate Charles DeGaul. TBH, both assessments are true. If you fly Air France, you'll love it. If you fly anything else, it's a dump.

Precisely, the experience of so many airports - large international ones in particular - is dependent upon which terminal you're in: if you're going in or out of 2C or 2F at CDG, it's lovely with amazing architecture (early ceiling collapses notwithstanding); if you're dealing with any other terminal (as I did the first time I ever flew into Paris prior to 2C and 2F opening), it's a dystopian nightmare often with People Movers...in French. My favorite overall airport remains Schiphol; Barcelona and Malpensa (views of the Matterhorn ) are nice too.

I'm a Delta, KLM, Air France person and at JFK, Terminal 1 (Air France) is convenient, but a hellhole; Terminal 4 (Delta, KLM) is lovely and new, but the walk distances are absurd (unless you're on the short concourse [Emirates]). My preference at JFK is actually Terminal 2, which is almost 60 years old, but clean, spacious, efficient, and easy. Weirdly both T2 and T4 have horrible baggage handling; seems like it can take longer to get your luggage than it did to fly from the West Coast or Europe.

Flew out of PHL tons as a kid, but only once in a blue moon as an adult and the only issues I've had are the at times soul-killing baggage handling (but as above, I get that at JFK too) and once checking in when a staffer saw me headed into the Priority line and felt the need to correct my course with a "THAT's the Priority line!!" I just kept moving and responded "I'm aware" and she said, "Oh, OK aiiight now, Baby," which to me was just a classic Philly moment.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Vince_

PHL has had some great renovations inside over the last 5 years but the outside is not great. The arrivals road / parking garage area is especially dreary. Planters and better lighting would help a lot. Then you have that mural on the exterior on the parking garages which I think is the worst work Mural Arts program has ever done.

TBH, if Penndot actually sent a street sweeper periodically down the shoulder of 95 which I don't think it's done in this decade, that would get us 90% of the way there.

I've graduated past the powerline obsession (though some of you have not). My new neurosis is the absolutely filthy (lack of) repair of Pennsylvania's highway shoulders. They're disgusting and an embarrassment. Whoever the head of PennDot is should be fired.

I guarantee you their street sweepers sit parked 80% of the time. Probably no show patronage jobs.

[PHLJD13]

Originally Posted by Vince_

PHS held a competition for better landscaping around PHL but nothing ever happened.

Reading through this exchange all I could think was ". . . but wasn't there a plan to overhaul the surrounding landscaping?" I remember this RFP also. Does anyone know what became of the project?

Also, for what it's worth, I've flown out of PHL about a dozen times since the City's lockdown was lifted and the only recent "inconvenience" I faced was a quick 45 min. rain delay on the runway. Better than average dining options, always clean (in my recent experiences), and the mini-homeless encampment that was isolated to the baggage claim hall during the early months of the pandemic was completely cleared out.

[Redddog]

Echoing the many, "don't see it" comments about PHL. I've flown a lot (though not as much as some of youse) and I've always loved the Philly airport. One thing that's amazing is the proximity to CC. It's 10-15 minutes door-to-door from Old City. That's incredible.

Denver? Dulles? JFK? O'Hare? Fugggeddaboudit. Plan on an hour or more and figure in the worst traffic. I've spent more times in those other airports just waiting around because if you don't leave enough for the worst traffic scenario, you could be screwed.

Philly is a cake-walk, comparatively.

They have bars, Chickies, all the other fast food stuff, the little convenience shop thingy. What, you want to go to the airport and hang out? They have it all and it's minutes from CC.

I LOVE Phl. One of the best.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Redddog

Echoing the many, "don't see it" comments about PHL. I've flown a lot (though not as much as some of youse) and I've always loved the Philly airport. One thing that's amazing is the proximity to CC. It's 10-15 minutes door-to-door from Old City. That's incredible.

Denver? Dulles? JFK? O'Hare? Fugggeddaboudit. Plan on an hour or more and figure in the worst traffic. I've spent more times in those other airports just waiting around because if you don't leave enough for the worst traffic scenario, you could be screwed.

Philly is a cake-walk, comparatively.

They have bars, Chickies, all the other fast food stuff, the little convenience shop thingy. What, you want to go to the airport and hang out? They have it all and it's minutes from CC.

I LOVE Phl. One of the best.

This. When I flew last Saturday I knew I wasn't checking a bag and I have TSA PreCheck, so I left my house at 10AM for an 11AM flight and I was at the gate 10 minutes before boarding. I even had time to do a loop and get a coffee.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

I've been flying LOT recently. Just last week, I flew PHL-LAX on American. Like the majority of posters here, I honestly don't understand the extreme PHL hate either. PHL isn't the best airport I've ever flown into/out of (that title goes to either Toronto-Pearson or Charles de Gaulle), it is FAR from the worst. In fact, I found PHL to be superior to LAX after my last trip. Not only did PHL have better food options (I found the options in the Tom Brady International Terminal to be severely lacking compared to Terminal A), but the ground transportation at PHL is vastly superior. Traveling from LAX to Downtown LA takes SO long compared to simply hopping on the Airport Line and arriving at Suburban Station.

In terms of rude staff, it's easy for me to avoid them: if I check-in and pay for my bag ahead of the flight, then all I need to do is print my bag tag and hand the bag over to the counter agent. I haven't had a bad experience with agents working for American or Southwest yet (I've also flown Air France and Air Canada, but not out of PHL). I also haven't had a bad experience with the food staff out of Terminals A, B, E, or F yet, aside from food that just barely arrived before my flight to Bangor, ME out of Terminal F.

While I do agree that PHL could benefit from a more visionary capital program and a much-needed expansion, it is ahead of many airports within its class. I just wish that international flights to Europe didn't cost up to $300 more out of PHL than out of JFK!

The capital plan is approved by the airlines. The reason PHL ditched its grand scheme for a massive overhaul is that the airlines wouldnt sign off. The stuff you see approved there is generally what has been Ok'd by the airlines- years back they made it clear they wanted investment in basic infrastructure and things that can reduce delays on the air side- not a massive billion dollar overhaul that was going to be passed on to customers in the form of higher fees. This is why the CEP was abandoned and they are now doing lots of bathroom, roofing, HVAC and taxiway improvement projects.