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  #281  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 7:30 PM
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That was a very comprehensive and coherent post and I agree wholeheartedly, Changing City. Unfortunately, crime is a political issue and many Vancouver residents would see the free housing, safe supply, and abundant mental health supports approach as far too sympathetic for a repeat offender. The logical response that would be advocated for by any external consultant is rarely adopted when the optics don't work politically. Hopefully Vancouver and British Columbia can choose leaders who not only have the desire to adhere to Canada's Housing First policy, but also the willpower to follow through.

I would also add that the entire social safety net has to work together. Indigenous peoples are overrepresented in our prison and homeless populations, and while some of this is due to the racial bias of the criminal justice system, Canada sets up Indigenous children to fail. Resolving the trauma of residential schools, bolstering high school graduation rates, providing Indigenous communities with basic community services, and eliminating discrimination in the hiring process for entry-level jobs will all help change outcomes later in life.
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  #282  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
For a guy with 100+ convictions? Lock him up.

Let's lock up the 0.1% of repeat offenders and see what happens.

Tax the 0.1% to pay for it.
The sleeping wife and baby in the minvan case? IMO we need something punative.

Stolen yoga pants? property-only crime? find a non-prison solution if possible.
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  #283  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
The sleeping wife and baby in the minvan case? IMO we need something punative.

Stolen yoga pants? property-only crime? find a non-prison solution if possible.
Perhaps. But if a business is getting broken in to every week for a year, it's arguably a better use of public resources to remove that person from the situation.
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  #284  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 8:22 PM
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Perhaps. But if a business is getting broken in to every week for a year, it's arguably a better use of public resources to remove that person from the situation.
Property crime can easily be distilled to a cost-benefit analysis:

Cost: $100k+ for incarceration plus the cost to get a conviction
Benefit: Lower insurance premiums, avoided inventory shortage, reduced stress for employees / owners

The benefits may be hard to quantify, and there may be $nil economic gain if insurance covers theft and damage anyways and the premiums aren't exorbitant. At that point the only benefit is fewer headaches for the business owner.
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  #285  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dreambrother808 View Post
If you do anything even remotely effective besides posting delusional ideas here and complaining I would be quite shocked.

The issue I have is with the hyperbolic nature of what is being discussed. I have agreed that things are worse and that we do need different approaches. The police's inability to do anything with repeat offenders is something that I have personally dealt with.

Still, the sky is not falling and downtown is not the panic-worthy bedlam portrayed histrionically here.
Stop pretending you know me. Or I suppose you are speaking for yourself?

You are missing the point here. If the whole City were to burn to the ground, rest assured the sky still won't fall. Unaffected people will still move on with their lives, but not for those who are.


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Originally Posted by GenWhy? View Post
They way I read this exchange:

Changing: "There are probably people with criminal records living where you live too. You can't lock everybody who breaks the law up for ever."

Vin: "That's exactly the kind of attitude why crime and drug abuse issues are spiraling out of control in this city."
Right on!
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  #286  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
0.1% is not going to be a very big number. I didn't say whatever definition the cops are using.

FTA


Set the bar at 100. That's 26 people. Jimmy Pattison can fund it.
The number of people stated only includes those arrested. There are many more offenders not caught because they were previously released or after serving very light sentences. Jail-time is pretty much just hibernation or holidaying for these individuals. One must remember that many crimes go unreported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mezzanine View Post
The sleeping wife and baby in the minvan case? IMO we need something punative.

Stolen yoga pants? property-only crime? find a non-prison solution if possible.
What you are suggesting is already in practice. That is why some "petty-crime" offenders can repeat the exact same crime more than 150 times. Certainly not the solution, is it?
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  #287  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
Property crime can easily be distilled to a cost-benefit analysis:

Cost: $100k+ for incarceration plus the cost to get a conviction
Benefit: Lower insurance premiums, avoided inventory shortage, reduced stress for employees / owners

The benefits may be hard to quantify, and there may be $nil economic gain if insurance covers theft and damage anyways and the premiums aren't exorbitant. At that point the only benefit is fewer headaches for the business owner.
My condo building had our main electrical room broken into, wherein the perp cut and stole our main grounding copper. Apart from being incredibly dangerous, this was a cost (to insurance mostly) of ~$50k to replace and repair.

Insurance isn't magic free money that falls from the sky. Those kinds of claims have impacts to our premium, and any other buildings in the area or meeting some similar characteristics.
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  #288  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 9:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
The number of people stated only includes those arrested. There are many more offenders not caught because they were previously released or after serving very light sentences. Jail-time is pretty much just hibernation or holidaying for these individuals. One must remember that many crimes go unreported.
Actually it's the number convicted. A small % of total crimes committed.
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  #289  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2021, 10:00 PM
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I'll repost for clarity if it isn't obvious enough.

They way I read this exchange:

Changing: "There are probably people with criminal records living where you live too. You can't lock everybody who breaks the law up for ever."

Vin: "That's exactly the kind of attitude why crime and drug abuse issues are spiraling out of control in this city."

Vin's response to my direct quotes: Right on!


The way I read this exchange:

Well... you can read it quite easily.
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  #290  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
We know very little about this man, except he's clearly a 'chronic offender', and whatever sanctions have been applied to him before haven't stopped him shoplifting. (He's undoubtedly been though the court system an probably spent time on remand ad/or in prison). That's where the conversation about prison beds and how much they cost is relevant.

There seem to be three options: imprisonment, supporting him living in the community and try to change his behavior, or do nothing and accept that this is where we're at.

If you lock him up (for an indeterminate period, or for a year, or two, or whatever) it has a cost to society of at least $110,000 a year. But if everyone who is in this category is going to be locked up, you're going to have to pay for a lot more prison cells at around $500,000 a cell. They're not available now, and many argue that they just warehouse problems temporarily, and make them worse in the long run. (More here in McLeans from earlier this year).

Or we could try to find out what's causing this behavior, and try to address it. To quote the Department of Justice "A disproportionate amount of criminal activity, particularly for property and administration of justice offences, is committed by a small number of offenders. Often, these ‘chronic offenders’ experience substance abuse and mental health concerns, and are disproportionately Indigenous." That's where providing housing for everyone irrespective of what they've done, what drugs they take, what their criminal record is, is an approach some advocate. Canada has recently adopted it, in theory, but in practice we don't yet have enough welfare rate housing to house everybody - especially people with complex behaviors and multiple diagnoses. Finland is a good example of a country that has provided its homeless population with small apartments and counseling without preconditions. "As a result, the country reversed conventional aid, emphasized the importance of stable living conditions, and saw a sharp decrease in its homeless population."

This isn't a panacea. People still take illegal drugs, carry out crimes and shoplift in Helsinki. But it costs less than locking them up, and it offers the possiblity of their lives improving and lowering both substance dependence and criminal activity to pay for their drugs.

If he's stealing to get money to pay for drugs, then providing a safe source of drugs and an offer to support if/when he wants to try to become less dependent on drugs might change things too. Decriminalization might help - it improved things in Portugal, although again, it doesn't 'stop' drug use. Once someone is addicted, you're dealing with a different dynamic than trying to prevent drug use in the first place.

Or your third option is do nothing. Leave things as they are. (You could write angry posts to irrelevant webpages saying he should be locked up and 'made to work' to pay for the costs of his imprisonment.)

But don't expect dramatic changes to the behavior that some people exhibit in the street. In fact, that will probably get worse rather than better. This (long) article from last month explains a lot of the behaviors that we see in Downtown and the DTES (and Nanaimo, and Kamloops, in my personal experience). The chemical composition and production of meth has changed. As supplies of ephedrine to manufacture meth were limited to try to reduce supply, a different more powerful version was produced - P2P. It's more volatile (hence the exploding meth labs) but it's easier and cheaper to produce, and it is made here, not just as an import. The biggest downside is that while ephedrine meth damaged people slowly, P2P meth accelerates brain damage, which in turn heightens paranoia and delusions. That's what you see today.

I favor providing more housing, a safe drug supply and more treatment beds, without expecting dramatic or overnight improvements in the situation we find ourselves in. Not because I've been desensitized to the situation, but because I've tried to read and understand why things are the way they are. In the meantime I do what I can to support positive local initiatives like Mission Possible, whose employees you see cleaning up the streets, and Guru Nanak's Kitchen, who recently bought an East Hastings SRO building to build a facility to provide free meals.

What's your proposed solution?
Implement what was studied and proposed in 2005.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/law-cr...-court/response-to-chronic-offenders.pdf

Its a common sense approach.

Its incredible reading it, it makes so much sense and would obviously alleviate so much of todays problems.

We can also add a safe supply. I think it does precisely zero to alleviate the problem on hand, but its not a battle worth fighting.
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  #291  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 1:35 AM
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Originally Posted by rofina View Post
Implement what was studied and proposed in 2005.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/law-cr...-court/response-to-chronic-offenders.pdf

Its a common sense approach.

Its incredible reading it, it makes so much sense and would obviously alleviate so much of todays problems.

We can also add a safe supply. I think it does precisely zero to alleviate the problem on hand, but its not a battle worth fighting.
They did create the Community Court, and it's still operating. It would appear the problems have either changed, or it isn't as effective as the Task Force hoped.
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  #292  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 2:18 AM
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Originally Posted by rofina View Post
Implement what was studied and proposed in 2005.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/law-cr...-court/response-to-chronic-offenders.pdf

Its a common sense approach.

Its incredible reading it, it makes so much sense and would obviously alleviate so much of todays problems.

We can also add a safe supply. I think it does precisely zero to alleviate the problem on hand, but its not a battle worth fighting.
If the government were to supply free drugs, I wonder who the suppliers would be. Pharmaceutical companies? Illegal drug smugglers? Employ civil servants to manufacture street drugs like cocaine, meth, etc.? Where the heck would they source the drugs? I can totally see our government in cahoots with criminal gangs around the world now.

I am vehemently against any free supply of drugs to addicts. This will never work because criminals will still find ways to get addicts hooked to contaminated drugs. When one's brain is already fried, it would be laughable for society to expect the individual to make the "correct choices", ie. to travel all the way to the government dispensary to pick up drugs for use. I wonder how much thought people supporting this system have put into this.

I say we just put hardcore addicts into cold turkey treatment centres to cleanse their systems from their afflictions. It is the only humane way prevent them from dying prematurely, and cure them by bringing such individuals back to become productive citizens once again. If we were to do this from the get-go, thousands of lives could have been saved already.

Other methods, such as the provision of free drugs, are just lazy and irresponsible ways concocted by clueless advocates and politicians using tax payer money to place band-aids on the scourge of drugs while ignoring all the internal hemorrhaging going on. Other industries, such as health-care related ones, would also go along because ultimately, this creates more jobs: all at the expense of the society.
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  #293  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2021, 6:03 AM
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I say we just put hardcore addicts into cold turkey treatment centres to cleanse their systems from their afflictions. It is the only humane way prevent them from dying prematurely, and cure them by bringing such individuals back to become productive citizens once again. If we were to do this from the get-go, thousands of lives could have been saved already.
Safe supply is about harm reduction, not treatment. I'm sure the government would happily not provide a safe supply if all addicts were interested in a detox program. Safe supply operates under the assumption that people will find hard drugs one way or another and continue to seek them regardless of their legalization status, so providing safe pharmaceutical-grade drugs is the lesser of two evils. A safe option for an individual who relapses sounds much more humane than leaving them vulnerable to the whims of the local gang member who cut that heroin with fent that morning, doesn't it?
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  #294  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 6:51 PM
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Safe supply is about harm reduction, not treatment. I'm sure the government would happily not provide a safe supply if all addicts were interested in a detox program. Safe supply operates under the assumption that people will find hard drugs one way or another and continue to seek them regardless of their legalization status, so providing safe pharmaceutical-grade drugs is the lesser of two evils. A safe option for an individual who relapses sounds much more humane than leaving them vulnerable to the whims of the local gang member who cut that heroin with fent that morning, doesn't it?
You are assuming that an addict high on substance abuse will actually take the bus or drive (God forbid) to a local drug store, procure clean drugs, then travel home to administer this "healthy" dose, or would they rather sit at home for pushers to show up at their door to supply with everything that can make them high, especially now that designer drugs are more potent? Come on, be real. This won't work. However, I think forced treatment for hardcore addicts to go cold-turkey will.
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  #295  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 6:58 PM
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I can't imagine how this city would be like in the aftermath of a natural disaster or zombie apocalypse.

A group of people used a gun to rob a store in Vancouver, and all they took was ice cream
https://bc.ctvnews.ca/a-group-of-people-...nd-all-they-took-was-ice-cream-1.5660415

Some would argue that these individuals should get free housing, free food, free everything, etc. right?
In the meantime, immigrants coming to this country, like this IGA security staff, are forced to defend businesses against such filth of the society, and having to pay their way, including their own life, through the mayhem no doubt tolerated by society and government.

Does this make it fair and just?
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  #296  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
They did create the Community Court, and it's still operating. It would appear the problems have either changed, or it isn't as effective as the Task Force hoped.

I don't think the needs have changed at all. Addiction has been an issue here for since day one. Opium dens used to exist 100 years ago.

I think the recommendations got neutered, and implemented as an appeasement, but not empowered to make change possible.

The more I read into this, the more this is not a housing, Vancouver, or drug problem.

Its a criminal justice problem first.
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  #297  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2021, 11:21 PM
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Some would argue that these individuals should get free housing, free food, free everything, etc. right?
Stop building a straw man. No one is arguing that individuals who commit armed robbery should not go to prison.
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  #298  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 8:47 PM
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The Douglas Jung building was vandalized with red handprints and some unsavory quotations. I think it happened overnight because I didn't notice it walking by yesterday. I assume the building was targeted because it is a government building and the court battle with indigenous children is dragging out.

Also, The Atlantic had an article in their most recent issue about how the North American drug supply is changing over from opioids and heroin to crystal methamphetamine. This is due to some breakthroughs by chemists who are now able to render the drug without any of the naturally occurring ephedrine molecule. According to DEA analysis, much of the supply coming up from Mexico is now being made with the P2P method using household chemicals, and production is now being done en masse, instead of a few pounds at a time. This increase in supply has put downward pressure on prices, and the de-centralized nature of production and the lack of control by cartels has made it more difficult for drug enforcement officials to crack down on the trade.

The Atlantic spoke to a number of sources including current and recovering drug users, street outreach workers, and law enforcement who claim the P2P meth is causing rapid mental health deterioration and that the road to recovery often requires months in a recovery facility. I would be interested to hear if anyone in Vancouver has an understanding of the drug-of-choice locally, and if the change in supply is responsible for the mental health crisis we are witnessing.
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  #299  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 9:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FarmerHaight View Post
The Douglas Jung building was vandalized with red handprints and some unsavory quotations. I think it happened overnight because I didn't notice it walking by yesterday. I assume the building was targeted because it is a government building and the court battle with indigenous children is dragging out.

Also, The Atlantic had an article in their most recent issue about how the North American drug supply is changing over from opioids and heroin to crystal methamphetamine. This is due to some breakthroughs by chemists who are now able to render the drug without any of the naturally occurring ephedrine molecule. According to DEA analysis, much of the supply coming up from Mexico is now being made with the P2P method using household chemicals, and production is now being done en masse, instead of a few pounds at a time. This increase in supply has put downward pressure on prices, and the de-centralized nature of production and the lack of control by cartels has made it more difficult for drug enforcement officials to crack down on the trade.

The Atlantic spoke to a number of sources including current and recovering drug users, street outreach workers, and law enforcement who claim the P2P meth is causing rapid mental health deterioration and that the road to recovery often requires months in a recovery facility. I would be interested to hear if anyone in Vancouver has an understanding of the drug-of-choice locally, and if the change in supply is responsible for the mental health crisis we are witnessing.
I'm sure just handing out the latest drug du jour free from the government will solve whatever problems there are.
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  #300  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2021, 11:42 PM
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I'm kind of surprised someone didn't post this here (and cheer about it)

Quote:
A former high-profile B.C gangster has lost an appeal of his sentence of life in prison in the Philippines for his involvement in an international drug-trafficking ring he helped set up in the Southeast Asian country.

On Oct. 12, 2021, the Republic of the Philippines Court of Appeal rejected an appeal of the sentence by former Independent Soldier James Clayton Riach, who was part of the Wolf Pack gang alliance, and accomplice Ali Shirazi, who is also Canadian. Among other things, Riach had challenged how the evidence was handled in the case.

...

According to Global Affairs Canada’s Canada’s website, there is no Offender Transfer Treaty between Canada and the Philippines. When such treaties exist, Canadians imprisoned abroad can apply to serve all or part of their sentence in Canada closer to their families.
FYI he has a criminal record here too...
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