NEW YORK | HDSN (418 11th Ave) | FT | 70 & 40 FLOORS

[NYguy]

This brings me back to my original comment concerning transportation priorities regarding this site. I beleive the best solution might be living with the current single track tunnel but arranging an agreement with Amtrak to move current and any future high[er] speed upstate Empire or Montreal services to Grand Central (like existed pre-1988) after capacity is freed up after ESA New Haven / Penn service commences. And yes if the west side Empire Connection is electrified and used for Metro-North Hudson Line split service to Penn (and includes new stations at 125th and 62nd on the UWS) there is actually an opportunity for a below grade Hudson Yards station between 36th and 41st in the current Empire Connection r.o.w. that could in theory be connected by seamless passageway to the 7 train Hudson Yards station mezzanine.

A stop just for transit to the 7 line? There are too many transit options at Penn to make that a sensible option.

Just for clarity, I'm not sure how the in depth concept I'm laying out here could be misunderstood as ignorant. Your confusion over what it is that I'm saying leads me to wonder about your depth of knowledge on the subject or your ability to envision how transport needs and development needs are interacting at Hudson Yards.

Well, your response tells me more about the depth of your understanding in general. If you bothered to read, instead of jumping in with your usual snark - which grows extremely tiresome at this point, I specifically said I wasn’t sure what his intentions were.

In any case, the right-of-way is protected.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by NYguy

A stop just for transit to the 7 line? There are too many transit options at Penn to make that a sensible option.

It's not clear to me that we are on the same wavelength here. I'm not talking about an Amtrak stop. I'm referencing the MTA's official plans that call for some Hudson Line Metro-North trains to divert and follow the Empire Connection to Penn Station. They have designated 125th St and 62nd St under Riverside South as desired station locations serving the UWS. Only one of those currently has a subway station in extreme proximity. What I am proposing, and I believe is extremely beneficial, is a through station located under Hudson Park (Bella Abzug Park) between 36th St and 41st St which is currently in progress heading north. There is room in the current trench right-of-way to construct a through station, as well as a pocket track for terminating some trains if required due to unresolved Penn capacity constraints. This through station could be a very convenient transfer point to the 7 train if connected through a passenger passageway directly in the 7 subway station upper mezzanine. The ability for passengers to avoid the final slow approach into Penn by instead alighting at a Hudson Yards platform would be extremely beneficial in my opinion and the added benefit of short turning some Hudson Line trains by terminating at said station further increases Penn flexibility.

Are you suggesting it would be insensible to provide such a transit connection? On what planet would a station at 62nd street be a stated MTA priority but a station at an enormous new business and convention district with an east-west subway connnection not?

Well, your response tells me more about the depth of your understanding in general. If you bothered to read, instead of jumping in with your usual snark - which grows extremely tiresome at this point, I specifically said I wasn’t sure what his intentions were.

I'm not trying to be abrasive. I think its fair to say that any outside observer may in fact read your comment tone as discrediting and aggressive. I'm just trying to share my thoughts about what I think is immensely important.

[BK1985]

Off topic I know but while we are on the topic of opening up the west side for more transit I definitely think there should be a East/west tramway built through the proposed 34th street car free plaza then a north/south line running through the median of the west side highway (or take a lane out In both directions)

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by BK1985

Off topic I know but while we are on the topic of opening up the west side for more transit I definitely think there should be an East/west tramway built through the proposed 34th street car-free plaza then a north/south line running through the median of the west side highway (or take a lane out In both directions)

Yes I would love to see some Trams/Streetcars built throughout NYC (though how will their financials work with the subway? Would the trams be for cross neighborhood travel while the subway is for cross-city travel?) Also, what do you mean 34th street car-free plaza? Can you link me something about that, please?

[BK1985]

Originally Posted by MAC123

Yes I would love to see some Trams/Streetcars built throughout NYC (though how will their financials work with the subway? Would the trams be for cross neighborhood travel while the subway is for cross-city travel?) Also, what do you mean 34th street car-free plaza? Can you link me something about that, please?

Take a look at the plan for Penn station, 34th street between herald square and 9th ave is pitched as a car free pedestrian plaza / bike way. Since that portion of the road I assume would be closed to bus traffic I would think the mta would still need a cross town option for people going east/west ( in my head, this would be fully integrated with the mta using OMNY). Feel free to PM me I don’t want to clog up this thread with ideas. (Edit: actually I think that ped plaza is on 33rd street)

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by BK1985

Take a look at the plan for Penn station, 34th street between herald square and 9th ave is pitched as a car free pedestrian plaza / bike way. Since that portion of the road I assume would be closed to bus traffic I would think the mta would still need a cross town option for people going east/west ( in my head, this would be fully integrated with the mta using OMNY). Feel free to PM me I don’t want to clog up this thread with ideas.

Ah that's 34th street. Okay thank you. And yeah we shouldn't have this convo here, this is about 418 11th Ave.

[Busy Bee]

I don't really think streetcars/trams are well suited for the Midtown Manhattan environment, both in capacity and right-of-way congestion, just as the 42nd St crosstown connector proposal wasn't. You would need to close most of the length of the crosstown street to allow enough space for a dedicated r.o.w. to eliminate vehicle conflicts and facilitate any kind of reasonable speed. Realistically a 34th St crosstown subway, even if only a shuttle like the S, would be a better solution, but that's probably unlikely. The only place I can see [high capacity] light rail within the city would be a north-south Woodhaven Blvd line, or an east-west Fordham Road line, both of which have been tossed around by planners. Fordham Road would likely require tunnels so you may as well make it a Bronx crosstown subway line (207th St - Co-op City). I also personally like the BQX. I don't understand its' detractors motivations and I dearly hope it survives under Eric Adams.

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by BK1985

Take a look at the plan for Penn station, 34th street between herald square and 9th ave is pitched as a car free pedestrian plaza / bike way. Since that portion of the road I assume would be closed to bus traffic I would think the mta would still need a cross town option for people going east/west ( in my head, this would be fully integrated with the mta using OMNY). Feel free to PM me I don’t want to clog up this thread with ideas. (Edit: actually I think that ped plaza is on 33rd street)

33rd St appears to be closed to traffic. Is 34th St also? That seems nice, but hard to believe since it's a major automotive thoroughfare.

https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2021-11/Penn_Station_Rendering.pdf

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

The ability for passengers to avoid the final slow approach into Penn by instead alighting at a Hudson Yards platform would be extremely beneficial in my opinion and the added benefit of short turning some Hudson Line trains by terminating at said station further increases Penn flexibility.

Are you suggesting it would be insensible to provide such a transit connection? On what planet would a station at 62nd street be a stated MTA priority but a station at an enormous new business and convention district with an east-west subway connnection not?

On this one. Again, there is one subway line - the 7 - which will be hard pressed as it is. The expense and added trouble of building a new station just for a transfer in HY when Penn Station with multiple modes of transit is just a few blocks away (itself requiring big bucks) doesn't make any sense at all.

I'm not trying to be abrasive. I think its fair to say that any outside observer may in fact read your comment tone as discrediting and aggressive. I'm just trying to share my thoughts about what I think is immensely important.

I'm aware of that. As I've said, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Originally Posted by BK1985

Off topic I know but while we are on the topic of opening up the west side for more transit I definitely think there should be a East/west tramway built through the proposed 34th street car free plaza then a north/south line running through the median of the west side highway (or take a lane out In both directions)

One of the proposals for the railyard development at one time included some type of "people mover" transit system from Penn.

Originally Posted by MAC123

Ah that's 34th street. Okay thank you. And yeah we shouldn't have this convo here, this is about 418 11th Ave.

And thank you. There's not enough discussion about this proposal in this thread. Transit options should be taken somewhere else.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by NYguy

On this one. Again, there is one subway line - the 7 - which will be hard pressed as it is. The expense and added trouble of building a new station just for a transfer in HY when Penn Station with multiple modes of transit is just a few blocks away (itself requiring big bucks) doesn't make any sense at all.

So hard pressed and capacity constrained that they were actively entertaining the possible extension to New Jersey just a few years ago? And not everyone that alighted and departed from a hypothetical Hudson Yards Metro-North station would be transferring to and from the 7 subway. Just as people would get on and get off at 62nd St or any city zone commuter rail station for that matter. Many commuters may in fact work in new Hudson Yards towers and a Hudson Yards station would be significantly more convenient than going to Penn and backtracking to HY. It's something that should be considered. Its also likely that a southbound Hudson Line train, due to the aforementioned single track tunnel, would have to pause in many cases waiting for track clearance in Penn, so why not just create the opportunity to de-train right there at the cue at 36th street literally withing feet of the 7 train station?

Anyways, I can't force my vision on you or make you see its' potential and as you said this isn't the thread for it...

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

So hard pressed and capacity constrained that they were actively entertaining the possible extension to New Jersey just a few years ago?

Yes, because, you know, people would like a subway option into Jersey and from Jersey, where they wouldn't have to transfer yet again at Penn Station just to take the subway. You know, the way some people take the subway out to Jamaica, but some just take the LIRR.

Anyways, I can't force my vision on you or make you see its' potential and as you said this isn't the thread for it...

Good, because I won't.


Back on the topic of this site in general, here's another pic from the other day, the right-of-way that will be protected for the rail...

[Spocket]

Yuck. That is a horrible looking piece of architecture in my opinion. Really not a fan of top-heavy skyscrapers.

[pianowizard]

^If it were more symmetrical, top-heavy might be okay, but this is too slanted toward one side.

[Raysiri]

Probably slanted for upside-down vents.

[JMKeynes]

This 1,600'+ tall tower is amazing.

If this were proposed for any city other than NY, the locals would be doing backflips.

[Busy Bee]

One of the most f**ked up things I've ever seen.

[MAC123]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

One of the most f**ked up things I've ever seen.

How old are you if this is one of the most fucked up things you've ever seen?

[BK1985]

If this were the standard setback design, many would complain that it was uninspired and boring. This simply reveals that no matter the design there will always be someone who doesn’t like it. There is no pleasing everyone, especially here.

[Xing Lin]

Seen in context, 3 Hudson Blvd. actually makes for a very decent counterbalance to this design's upside down massing. If both were built, they might almost look directly related, like 30 and 10 HY.

[JMKeynes]

Originally Posted by Xing Lin

Seen in context, 3 Hudson Blvd. actually makes for a very decent counterbalance to this design's upside down massing. If both were built, they might almost look directly related, like 30 and 10 HY.

Good point.