Public Disorder & the Decline of Vancouver's Livability

[s211]

Originally Posted by rofina

You sound like an NRA apologist when there's a mass shooting. I mean how often do those happen and what are the chances you would actually be a victim? This is all ok and acceptable. Reprecussion for all except those comitting actual crimes.

100% agree with your astute observation: woke apologists looking to justify human misery.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by s211

100% agree with your astute observation: woke apologists looking to justify human misery.

I think you have your American political spectrum confused; the "woke" are in favor of gun control and are not card-carrying NRA members.

I think we should leave American stereotypes alone. They are reductive of people and arguments and they don't apply to Canada.

[esquire]

I just stumbled on this thread. I was planning to spend a week in downtown Vancouver in March with my family at the Sheraton Wall Centre. It's been a long time since I've stayed in downtown Vancouver (normally I've stayed in Richmond in recent years) but I've never felt concerned about safety on past visits. But this thread is alarming and is giving me pause.

Is it a bad idea to stay downtown with my wife and young kids? Especially if we want to do stuff after dark, e.g. my son wants to go to a Canucks game, etc.

It's funny, I've read a lot of stories over the last year about Minneapolis taking a bad turn and it has made me reluctant to go back. But I didn't know this was a thing in downtown Vancouver too.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by esquire

I just stumbled on this thread. I was planning to spend a week in downtown Vancouver in March with my family at the Sheraton Wall Centre. It's been a long time since I've stayed in downtown Vancouver (normally I've stayed in Richmond in recent years) but I've never felt concerned about safety on past visits. But this thread is alarming and is giving me pause.

Is it a bad idea to stay downtown with my wife and young kids? Especially if we want to do stuff after dark, e.g. my son wants to go to a Canucks game, etc.

It's funny, I've read a lot of stories over the last year about Minneapolis taking a bad turn and it has made me reluctant to go back. But I didn't know this was a thing in downtown Vancouver too.

Remember, this thread's kind of an echo chamber at times; check around other social media sites, and it turns out that other cities have the exact same problem. I can't speak for everybody, but I've walked around downtown at night on multiple occasions and haven't run into any trouble so far.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by esquire

Is it a bad idea to stay downtown with my wife and young kids? Especially if we want to do stuff after dark, e.g. my son wants to go to a Canucks game, etc.

I had friends visit from Saskatchewan this summer. They stayed on the border of Yaletown/Gastown, walked or biked everywhere, and never had any safety issues. I don't think you need to be concerned. My wife is 9-months pregnant and we have never hesitated to spend time downtown even after dark.

[esquire]

OK, good to know... thanks!

And all the best with your impending arrival FarmerHaight

[Acajack]

For the record I haven't been to Vancouver in a couple of years and back then downtown except for the very worst blocks of the DTES were just fine. Even the DTES was more creepy than truly dangerous. Though I know that things have changed in a lot of cities in the past year or two.

Anyway I at least wasn't suggesting that people avoid downtown Vancouver with their families.

But I do find this discussion an interesting one as I think Vancouver just like many other cities needs to keep a close eye on things to avoid having them go too far in the wrong direction.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by esquire

I just stumbled on this thread. I was planning to spend a week in downtown Vancouver in March with my family at the Sheraton Wall Centre. It's been a long time since I've stayed in downtown Vancouver (normally I've stayed in Richmond in recent years) but I've never felt concerned about safety on past visits. But this thread is alarming and is giving me pause.

Is it a bad idea to stay downtown with my wife and young kids? Especially if we want to do stuff after dark, e.g. my son wants to go to a Canucks game, etc.

It's funny, I've read a lot of stories over the last year about Minneapolis taking a bad turn and it has made me reluctant to go back. But I didn't know this was a thing in downtown Vancouver too.

We can get a little hyperbolic in here sometimes (I'm guilty of it too). Downtown is fine. My sister was just visiting from Edmonton, and she and her husband had a blast (they stayed at the Bayshore).

We nitpick and debate a lot here, but in the end, we just want what's best for the city.

Having said that, the homeless/mental healthcare issues in Vancouver have gotten worse since the pandemic. It's something locals will notice, but visitors might not.

Here's downtown a month ago.

• Video Link

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I had friends visit from Saskatchewan this summer. They stayed on the border of Yaletown/Gastown, walked or biked everywhere, and never had any safety issues. I don't think you need to be concerned. My wife is 9-months pregnant and we have never hesitated to spend time downtown even after dark.

I don't hink it's to the point of staying away - it's more about being aware of what's happening around you just in case.

[jlousa]

As someone that lives in Gastown I'd say you are most likely not to encounter any issues, especially as a family unit. Going to a Canuck game would be especially fine given the amount of people coming and going at the same time. The kids and wife might feel uncomfortable during the walk, but that's probably it.

[SpongeG]

you won't encounter anything personally but you will be exposed to a lot of things going on that used to be kept in the back alleys but are now happening out in the open.

People living on the street may be uncomfortable to some and scary to others and many feel absolutely nothing.

It's a much more visible thing now than it was in the past. I never heard that much yelling or screaming as have been hearing in the last few visits downtown. I was walking down Robson in the early Summer and a woman was walking screaming quite loudly at her friend across the street with her top pulled up and playing her breasts like they were bongos and people were really avoiding that side of the street. This was around 5 or 6 pm.

Maybe I don't go downtown enough but i find there is never anything open other than perhaps Breka or Tim Hortons after 9 pm. All the shops have been closing ar 6 or 8 pm. So its not the greatest to stroll down Robson after dinner anymore, feels like no point. could just be a covid thing, malls out in the burbs are closed much earlier too.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jlousa

As someone that lives in Gastown I'd say you are most likely not to encounter any issues, especially as a family unit. Going to a Canuck game would be especially fine given the amount of people coming and going at the same time. The kids and wife might feel uncomfortable during the walk, but that's probably it.

And if you’re a woman walking alone? Just SOL I guess.

[Metro-One]

Yes, we don’t want to get hyperbolic on here, that’s just as bad as being overly dismissive.

While I haven’t been in Van myself for a couple years I did notice downtown getting gradually worse (especial Granville and Yaletown) during each visit between 2013 and 2019. Since then I have heard from friends and family (that I trust) who live or work downtown of it having degraded more since 2019.

So here’s the thing, when I return next will I avoid downtown completely? No. Will I be as excited to visit downtown as I was ten years ago? No. In 2019 my experience downtown became far more negative than before. My last stroll downtown included being harassed by numerous homeless for money, finding shit on the sidewalk in Yaletown, and seeing a junkie being resuscitated in a park in front of children and families on the playground. This is all stuff that I don’t wish for my own children and friends to witness when touring downtown (and in Japan you can tour urban areas far greater than Vancouver without any of that).

Affordability aside, when I move back to BC downtown Vancouver is definitely off the list for possible places to settle. I also feel increasingly embarrassed to recommend Vancouver to my Japanese friends and co-workers to visit because of the homeless / drug issues.

Is it a war zone that must be avoided at all costs? No. But is it becoming an increasingly unpleasant experience for pedestrians and even hostile / damaging for businesses? Yes. Does something need to be done, especially before it gets any worse? Yes. Is being dismissive of the problem going to help anyone? No.

PS, I also want to mention that the problem has reached a point where it does have international attention and is damaging the image of Vancouver. There have been more than a couple occasions now where I have met other ex-pats in Japan from various different countries, and the first thing they bring up when I say I from Vancouver isn’t the scenery or food or lulu lemon, but the homeless and junkies. It’s disheartening. Most embarrassing of all was a program on Japanese TV (NHK) that had a 30 minute special on Vancouver and most of that was dedicated to the homeless problem. Let’s just say all the images of Hastings street floored the Japanese commentators.

[esquire]

It sounds like things are moving in the direction of San Francisco... very stratified, with the underclass becoming increasingly prominent on the streets.

[Acajack]

Somehow I really doubt that things are in any way that dire in downtown Vancouver at the moment.

Though all that really means is that the time to act and nip this in the bud is now.

But is there political and community will to actually do that?

(Not a slag on Vancouver BTW. Other cities have been similarly challenged and failed. Many cities in my part of the country won't or wouldn't likely do any better.)

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Somehow I really doubt that things are in any way that dire in downtown Vancouver at the moment.

Though all that really means is that the time to act and nip this in the bud is now.

But is there political and community will to actually do that?

(Not a slag on Vancouver BTW. Other cities have been similarly challenged and failed. Many cities in my part of the country won't or wouldn't likely do any better.)

I agree with the above posts, objectivity is needed.

I'm probably one of the more active posters on these matters.

Can you safely visit Downtown with a family and enjoy a hockey game? Yes.

We are not in a place where I would be fearful for getting mugged after dark, the change so far is that I now would be aware and conscious of my surroundings after dark. Years past safety in public never crossed my mind.

Has the Downtown core deteriorated dramatically in the last 5 or so years? Yes.

What does that actually mean on the daily;

1. Very noticeable increase in homelessness. Expect to see most any undercover doorway, or vacant storefront to have someone sleeping in it.

2. Very noticeable increase in mental health issues. If you walk around DT for an afternoon there is nearly no chance that you wont come across 2 or 3 people screaming at dragons and sky demons. This can be unsettling since the folks are clearly not in the right state of mind.

3. Very noticeable degradation of the public realm. Sidewalks are not maintained. Garbage bins overflowing. Garbage on sidewalks and street gutters. Again; not everywhere all the time, and not in heaps. But much worse than years before, I personally regarded Vancouver as a very clean and tidy City, no longer.

4. Very noticeable increase in human feces and urine. The smells Downtown are simply not pleasant, and you get hit in the face with a strong urine smell far too often. See #1 and 2 for reasons why.

5. Different type of street person has moved in. Being local I'm familiar with mental health issues, the regular street folks we have had in Vancouver for decades. The last few years we have a new element that's moved in; younger, able bodied, no easily perceptible mental health issues. Best way I can describe it; slightly more criminal looking element. I notice this very much more now on Granville, and particularly the South End of DT/Yaletown. These are the groups that have me taking headphones out and paying attention to my surroundings.

5. Pandemic/Labor Market/ Not unique to Vancouver - DT is not very alive afterhours anymore. Early closures, under staffing forced. Many closures and empty store fronts, though many already rebuilding too. I'm sure this part will turn around with a hopeful recovery from Covid.

Now on the bolded part from Acajack; is there political will.

The answer is no.

The reason I have been so vocal here is that I chose to get personally involved in early 2019 to help make a change, beyond just donating money.

Met with community organizers, community groups, non profits, DTES locals, tried to get a few initiatives off the ground. Corresponded with both Jenny Kwan and David Eby on the matters; to both their credits they both personally responded. The Mayors office and Council has never replied to a correspondence during my 2 year involvement on the matters.

The end result and take away as I see it?

We are going to maintain status quo, double down, increase funding when possible, and hope that solves the problem.

There is no appetite to rock the boat or try anything remotely different from the current approach.

I actually think Vancouver has it right; the 4 pillar approach is quite brilliant and I think exactly what we need. I don't think a revolution is needed; I think we just need to follow directives already on the books.

Unfortunately due to a complicated apparatus we have built, there is little hope anything changes until we have political leaders in place that will be willing to take fire and lead by making changes, or rather just using the road map we already created, instead of tripling down on one Pillar only.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rofina

I agree with the above posts, objectivity is needed.

I'm probably one of the more active posters on these matters.

Can you safely visit Downtown with a family and enjoy a hockey game? Yes.

We are not in a place where I would be fearful for getting mugged after dark, the change so far is that I now would be aware and conscious of my surroundings after dark. Years past safety in public never crossed my mind.

Has the Downtown core deteriorated dramatically in the last 5 or so years? Yes.

What does that actually mean on the daily;

1. Very noticeable increase in homelessness. Expect to see most any undercover doorway, or vacant storefront to have someone sleeping in it.

2. Very noticeable increase in mental health issues. If you walk around DT for an afternoon there is nearly no chance that you wont come across 2 or 3 people screaming at dragons and sky demons. This can be unsettling since the folks are clearly not in the right state of mind.

3. Very noticeable degradation of the public realm. Sidewalks are not maintained. Garbage bins overflowing. Garbage on sidewalks and street gutters. Again; not everywhere all the time, and not in heaps. But much worse than years before, I personally regarded Vancouver as a very clean and tidy City, no longer.

4. Very noticeable increase in human feces and urine. The smells Downtown are simply not pleasant, and you get hit in the face with a strong urine smell far too often. See #1 and 2 for reasons why.

5. Different type of street person has moved in. Being local I'm familiar with mental health issues, the regular street folks we have had in Vancouver for decades. The last few years we have a new element that's moved in; younger, able bodied, no easily perceptible mental health issues. Best way I can describe it; slightly more criminal looking element. I notice this very much more now on Granville, and particularly the South End of DT/Yaletown. These are the groups that have me taking headphones out and paying attention to my surroundings.

5. Pandemic/Labor Market/ Not unique to Vancouver - DT is not very alive afterhours anymore. Early closures, under staffing forced. Many closures and empty store fronts, though many already rebuilding too. I'm sure this part will turn around with a hopeful recovery from Covid.

Now on the bolded part from Acajack; is there political will.

The answer is no.

The reason I have been so vocal here is that I chose to get personally involved in early 2019 to help make a change, beyond just donating money.

Met with community organizers, community groups, non profits, DTES locals, tried to get a few initiatives off the ground. Corresponded with both Jenny Kwan and David Eby on the matters; to both their credits they both personally responded. The Mayors office and Council has never replied to a correspondence during my 2 year involvement on the matters.

The end result and take away as I see it?

We are going to maintain status quo, double down, increase funding when possible, and hope that solves the problem.

There is no appetite to rock the boat or try anything remotely different from the current approach.

I actually think Vancouver has it right; the 4 pillar approach is quite brilliant and I think exactly what we need. I don't think a revolution is needed; I think we just need to follow directives already on the books.

Unfortunately due to a complicated apparatus we have built, there is little hope anything changes until we have political leaders in place that will be willing to take fire and lead by making changes, or rather just using the road map we already created, instead of tripling down on one Pillar only.

The highlighted mindset is the dominant one (or at least it's extremely influential) in pretty much every major city in North America.

It's true in cities much worse off than Vancouver and it is how it will eventually play out in those cities that haven't been "hit" yet.

[idunno]

We are going to maintain status quo, double down, increase funding when possible, and hope that solves the problem.

There is no appetite to rock the boat or try anything remotely different from the current approach.

I would question this. Just look at this week - the province applied to Ottawa to decriminalize small amounts of the most common street drugs that are wrapped up in homelessness/addiction. That is a HUGE step in the right direction.

[jollyburger]

Not sure if it's just hyperbole or a real thing but article on the mass production/side effects from "new meth" in the US

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/11/the-new-meth/620174/

[rofina]

Originally Posted by idunno

I would question this. Just look at this week - the province applied to Ottawa to decriminalize small amounts of the most common street drugs that are wrapped up in homelessness/addiction. That is a HUGE step in the right direction.

This goes to my point directly; we are tripling down on one pillar only.

Should drugs be decriminalized? Yes.
But not in a vacuum, this approach only works when all 4 pillars are implemented.

For those not in the know the 4 pillars are;

1. Harm Reduction (this goes to legalization above, and me harping on tripling down in general, this is currently the only pillar receiving meaningful funding and attention)
2. Prevention
3. Treatment (we do have a couple new facilities coming online in the next half decade. A start, at least.)
4. Enforcement