California High Speed Rail Thread

[Busy Bee]

Streetsblog Visits Under Construction CHSR Structures

[SFBruin]

It seems to me that good transit in many mid-sized cities prevents people from needing to own a second car.

You might be able to get around without a car at all in these types of places, but the second car definitely is an easy sacrifice.

[curt-pdx]

NEXT BIT has dropped: Drone footage of CP2-3 from John at The Four Foot:

• Video Link

Originally Posted by curt-pdx

More goodness from John at The Four Foot - a drone flyover of CP1:

• Video Link

My thanks to him for his impressive commitment of time to keep us informed. There will be two more drone flyover videos of the other construction packages coming soon.

[Busy Bee]

It bothers me tremendously that essentially top-notch marketing materials like these fan videos are not being produced by the Authority to maintain and further sell the public on a political commitment to the project, but instead produced by a random enthusiast doing it for no other reason but their passion and interest for little to no money outside of peripheral Patreon contributions. Why the CHSRA hasn't hired John is beyond me.

Furthermore, the CHSR project isn't like a HS2 or a new TGV line scheme where you produce a video showing how pre-existing rail service will be drastically improved by a HSR bypass. Essenitally for all intents and purposes the California project doesn't have a pre-existing service its improving upon. The existing Amtrak services are not only subpar in most ways, it's not a reality that most citizens can relate to as something they are familiar with and therefore something they can see will be dramatically improved by HSR implementation. In the case of California, this isn't "an improvement" this is a paradigm shift or at least has the potential to be. From day one the Authority should have been producing marketing materials that didn't just show 2.5 seconds of a scene with a train and a tunnel in the desert or speeding through the Fresno trench, thats fine an all, but what they should be doing is showing the average Californian how the system can be used. Show the transition between sitting in freeway traffic or hours behind the wheel through the central valley, fighting parking in cities, etc etc. Show instead a rider leaving their front door, catching a short bus ride or having a friend drop them at the front door of an ultramodern HSR station. Show them using a laptop or playing cards or talking with friends/family or even snoozing while the suckers over on the highway are falling asleep at the wheel LOL. Show them arrival in the center of town, in several cities, walking just a few hundred feet to their destination or catching public transportation or an easy pre-coordinated rideshare to a more suburban destination. There's so many things the CHSRA shoudl and could be doing to keep the public engaged and "on board" with the promise of this project. Instead most of their videos, other than the animations 10+ years old and un-updated, seem to be random flyovers of routes no longer in contention or about ironworkers and how many jobs have been created. That's fine, I'm just not sure if that's enough to keep the public excited about the big picture potential of the project and how it could transform how Californians travel.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

It bothers me tremendously that essentially top-notch marketing materials like these fan videos are not being produced by the Authority to maintain and further sell the public on a political commitment to the project, but instead produced by a random enthusiast doing it for no other reason but their passion and interest for little to no money outside of peripheral Patreon contributions. Why the CHSRA hasn't hired John is beyond me.

Furthermore, the CHSR project isn't like a HS2 or a new TGV line scheme where you produce a video showing how pre-existing rail service will be drastically improved by a HSR bypass. Essenitally for all intents and purposes the California project doesn't have a pre-existing service its improving upon. The existing Amtrak services are not only subpar in most ways, it's not a reality that most citizens can relate to as something they are familiar with and therefore something they can see will be dramatically improved by HSR implementation. In the case of California, this isn't "an improvement" this is a paradigm shift or at least has the potential to be. From day one the Authority should have been producing marketing materials that didn't just show 2.5 seconds of a scene with a train and a tunnel in the desert or speeding through the Fresno trench, thats fine an all, but what they should be doing is showing the average Californian how the system can be used. Show the transition between sitting in freeway traffic or hours behind the wheel through the central valley, fighting parking in cities, etc etc. Show instead a rider leaving their front door, catching a short bus ride or having a friend drop them at the front door of an ultramodern HSR station. Show them using a laptop or playing cards or talking with friends/family or even snoozing while the suckers over on the highway are falling asleep at the wheel LOL. Show them arrival in the center of town, in several cities, walking just a few hundred feet to their destination or catching public transportation or an easy pre-coordinated rideshare to a more suburban destination. There's so many things the CHSRA shoudl and could be doing to keep the public engaged and "on board" with the promise of this project. Instead most of their videos, other than the animations 10+ years old and un-updated, seem to be random flyovers of routes no longer in contention or about ironworkers and how many jobs have been created. That's fine, I'm just not sure if that's enough to keep the public excited about the big picture potential of the project and how it could transform how Californians travel.

All great points. But if you really need more publicity on their web site advocating CHSR, I suggest starting a petition to have a new referendum to raise more money or kill it - your choice! For some reasons, the only encouragement for CHSR Authority to do spend a lot of money for outreaches to the public is to have a referendum! They need a political challenge to spend that money.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by electricron

outreaches to the public

CAHSR and fan videos are no match for that carnival barker Elon Musk and his hyperloop/boring company scams. He has single-handedly done more to muddy the conversation than anyone else, and no amount of money will get him to shut up and go back to rescuing soccer teams from caves.

[tech12]

Yeah, we could definitely use some better HSR marketing.

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

and no amount of money will get him to shut up and go back to rescuing soccer teams from caves.

He didn't even rescue anyone lol

But he did call the actual rescuer a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, after the guy declined to use Elon's untested child-sized submersible to rescue the kids.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

CAHSR and fan videos are no match for that carnival barker Elon Musk and his hyperloop/boring company scams. He has single-handedly done more to muddy the conversation than anyone else, and no amount of money will get him to shut up and go back to rescuing soccer teams from caves.

Well that and people from other states telling CA that it won't get built or it's too much money. PR would cost more money for them though, and people from outside the state are complaining about the costs as well.
I think it's just because it's a project in California, if it was in Texas everybody would just say "that's really cool".
I suspect some salt is from the feds giving CA money. Electricon wants it for his state.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by TWAK

if it was in Texas

Everyone here knows that the Texas project is small-time compared to CAHSR. 20~ fewer stations and 20~ fewer tunnels. No integration with other rail activities (Caltrains, Metrorail, Las Vegas rail). The Texas stations won't be in downtown Dallas or Houston or integrated with their respective existing public transportation systems.

Everything's bigger in Texas, except high speed rail.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Everyone here knows that the Texas project is small-time compared to CAHSR. 20~ fewer stations and 20~ fewer tunnels. No integration with other rail activities (Caltrains, Metrorail, Las Vegas rail). The Texas stations won't be in downtown Dallas or Houston or integrated with their respective existing public transportation systems.

Everything's bigger in Texas, except high speed rail.

Wont get built!!
Sorry, just had to try. That's cool Texas is getting a HSR project though, which is the proper response for transportation fans!

[electricron]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Wont get built!!
Sorry, just had to try. That's cool Texas is getting a HSR project though, which is the proper response for transportation fans!

I'm not sure anyone in the USA will ever raise enough money to build a HSR line. But let's take a bird's eye view on how California and Texas HSR projects have proceeded to date.
1) Both California and Texas projects were initiated as HSR projects, no other means of transportation were seriously considered as alternatives.
2) The California Legislature established a government Commission or Authority to finance, study, design, build, and run a HSR system.
3) Texas Central established a private company to do the same things.
4) The California Authority broke the planned HSR line into many parts or sections. California is studying, designing, building, and financing its project one section at a time.
5) Texas Central has not, keeping the whole Dallas to Houston into one project, it's an all or nothing project.
6) California started construction before finishing all the IOS environmental reviews, and without the money in hand to finish the IOS.
7) Texas Central has completed all its environmental reviews, but has not started construction yet, getting all its ducks in a row before actually moving dirt.
8) Both have had difficulties in the court systems over eminent domain property purchases.

IMHO, one project has proceeded in a sound economic and engineering way, and the other has not. Guess which one I think has been more responsible.

Again I repeat, I have no idea whether either project will ever be completed.

[TWAK]

^So you're angry at another HSR system located a thousand miles away? I'm not mad at Texas at all for having HSR. That's cool, like I said, it's neat. Say the same for CAHSR or I will claim it's hypocritical.
This is how people used to respond to projects, back in my day!

[electricron]

Originally Posted by TWAK

^So you're angry at another HSR system located a thousand miles away? I'm not mad at Texas at all for having HSR. That's cool, like I said, it's neat. Say the same for CAHSR or I will claim it's hypocritical.
This is how people used to respond to projects, back in my day!

I'm not mad that California wants a HSR system. I just think they are doing it wrong!

The number one thing they are doing wrong is starting construction of it in the Valley vs in the mountain passes. Mountain passes take the longest time to build because tunnels take longer to dig, the tunnels should have been where they started building first!
If you were not aware, the existing gap in intercity Amtrak passenger train services in California is between Bakersfield and Los Angeles. Today, Amtrak runs buses along this gap. Yes, the US national and State subsidized passenger train service provider is running buses. And they will be far into the future because CHSR has not even finished the environment studies for the Palmdale to Los Angeles sector.

CHSR is presently scheduled to complete the IOS between Merced and Bakersfield until 2029, another 7 to 8 years into the future. It will be at least another 10 years, at a minimum, to dig the tunnels in the mountain passes assuming they immediately start digging after completing the environmental studies and receiving the FRA Record of Decision. At a minimum another 10 years, more probably another 20 years, hence CHSR present projection of competing Phase I (SF to LA) in 2049.

Good luck!

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by electricron

I'm not mad that California wants a HSR system. I just think they are doing it wrong!

The number one thing they are doing wrong is starting construction of it in the Valley vs in the mountain passes. Mountain passes take the longest time to build because tunnels take longer to dig, the tunnels should have been where they started building first!

The Valley route is best because it can be built quicker and it's the cheapest to build. People from outside of state want us to spend less of our own money and want construction. So far you are getting what you wanted.

If you were not aware, the existing gap in intercity Amtrak passenger train services in California is between Bakersfield and Los Angeles. Today, Amtrak runs buses along this gap. Yes, the US national and State subsidized passenger train service provider running buses.

You might not be aware that there's a train you can take down to LA but it takes about 13 hours. It goes along the coast and is a great ride. In addition to HSR, local services like metrolink would be enhanced. If there are no plans to increase DART or something, I'll get very angry at the Texas plan. Is there?

CHSR is presently scheduled to complete the IOS between Merced and Bakersfield until 2029, another 7 to 8 years into the future.
Good luck!

Interesting, because they are going to be testing trains in 2023.
You don't mean good luck, you want us to change the whole plan!

[SFBruin]

To me, the tunnels are the system.

They're what make this project transformative.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by TWAK

The Valley route is best because it can be built quicker and it's the cheapest to build. People from outside of state want us to spend less of our own money and want construction. So far you are getting what you wanted.

You might not be aware that there's a train you can take down to LA but it takes about 13 hours. It goes along the coast and is a great ride. In addition to HSR, local services like metrolink would be enhanced. If there are no plans to increase DART or something, I'll get very angry at the Texas plan. Is there?


Interesting, because they are going to be testing trains in 2023.
You don't mean good luck, you want us to change the whole plan!

Sure, the Valley is the cheapest and easiest sections to build. Never-the-less, I still maintain they should have built the more difficult sections first. The French and American engineers and contractors did not start building the Panama Canal at the Caribbean and Pacific portals, they started digging in the Culebra Cut because that was going to take the longest to do. It was also the most expensive and hardest to do as well.
The British and French started building the Chunnel sections long before building the rest of HSR1 in Britain, also because it took the longest time to do. If your goal is actually finishing an entire project as quickly as possible, you start with the pieces of the projects that take the longest to do.
Construction 101!

As for testing CHSR trainsets in 2023, which will more likely take 2 years to build, they should have bought them last year, by the end of this year at the latest, yet I am sad to report to everyone reading this thread that no new 200+ mph trainsets have been ordered to date. Shucks, they have not even ordered the catenaries for the sections Merced to Bakersfield yet. Good luck seeing any HSR trainsets being tested in 2023.

[TWAK]

^Well I guess California broke the construction rules in order to satisfy people demanding construction (from outside the state mostly). I'm sorry that we broke the rules but there's nothing to be done, except more building in the valley. Is Texas electrifying local rail? If not they are doing it the wrong way! Texas should also be building the cheapest sections first, because I demand to see you guys constructing your system now.

[jmecklenborg]

If CAHSR had started with the big tunnels, the critics would have booed them for that.

Build a high-speed system and they say build it slower. Build a slower-speed system and they say it should be faster. Build super-long platforms for double-set HSR trains and they say it'll never get that many passengers. Build single-set platforms and they'll say you're dooming passenger capacity.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by TWAK

The Valley route is best because it can be built quicker and it's the cheapest to build.

The I-5 route would have been roughly 40 miles shorter and so would have been cheaper for that reason alone. But it also would have not served the Central Valley where the valley's population is centered, which is the string of cities and towns along the UP mainline.

Texas

The Dallas>Houston line is roughly 1/3 the track length of CAHSR Phases 1 & 2.

Texas is making a big mistake by not planning for an integrated system that would link Dallas/FW, San Antonio, and Houston in a big triangle, with intermediate stations for Austin, College Station, Waco, etc. Such a system would comprise roughly 650 miles of track, so still not as big as CAHSR, and with no major tunnels.

[Will O' Wisp]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

The Dallas>Houston line is roughly 1/3 the track length of CAHSR Phases 1 & 2.

Texas is making a big mistake by not planning for an integrated system that would link Dallas/FW, San Antonio, and Houston in a big triangle, with intermediate stations for Austin, College Station, Waco, etc. Such a system would comprise roughly 650 miles of track, so still not as big as CAHSR, and with no major tunnels.

Aka the famous "Texas triangle" that Southwest Airlines was built on.

But Texas HSR doesn't have the money for that. Private development is turning out to not quite be as affordable as advertised. Last year the Board Chairman of Texas Central admitted this was a "$30 billion dollar project", which puts it at about the same cost as CAHSR mile for mile. The CEO is now saying the project needs a $12 billion dollar loan from the federal government to be feasible. Two Republican house representatives recently wrote a letter to the Biden admin stating their opposition to Texas HSR receiving federal funds.

For all of CAHSR's flaws, I'm not sure Texas HSR is being run much better.