Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by The Fisher Account

They also didn't want to be responsible for killing the CFL (understandably).

The NFL is a business so a Toronto NFL team depends on the cost/benefit analysis. There's a substantial loss to the NFL in killing off the CFL and little to no financial benefit.

The NFL already gets television revenue from Toronto (and Canada) and merchandise revenue from Toronto (and Canada). Putting a NFL team in Toronto doesn't increase either of those things. All it does is divert Canadian NFL eyes and dollars to 1 team instead of the 36 US teams currently in existence.

So it re-divides the pie but it doesn't make that pie bigger. It makes little economic sense for the NFL, would destroy the oldest football league in North America, and damage football across Canada. Lets face it, we'd end up with 1 pro team in Toronto and NO professional football anywhere else in Canada. Then there's the incalculable loss to Canada of destroying part of our culture. A significant number of Canadians don't seem to care about Canadian culture but others do. Canada is the birthplace of football, after all, so it would be a devastating loss.

[Djeffery]

I don't think the loss of the Argos leading to the demise of the CFL is such a sure thing as when NFL talk first came about decades ago.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't think the loss of the Argos leading to the demise of the CFL is such a sure thing as when NFL talk first came about decades ago.

Probably not, but don't tell the NFL that!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I don't think the loss of the Argos leading to the demise of the CFL is such a sure thing as when NFL talk first came about decades ago.

Perhaps not but it could be greatly diminished.

Corporate and Media Toronto isn't great with the CFL at the moment, but it would ignore it even more if the Argos weren't there.

Just look at the CHL for an example of what it would look like.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Perhaps not but it could be greatly diminished.

Corporate and Media Toronto isn't great with the CFL at the moment, but it would ignore it even more if the Argos weren't there.

Just look at the CHL for an example of what it would look like.

Ha. Yes. The CHL could be our equivalent to NCAA sports but instead it gets shunted off to some dark closet where the national media outlets ignore it completely except for a few days a year around the NHL draft, the World Juniors and maybe the Memorial Cup (and only the latter results on any focus on the league itself as opposed to individual players).

But yes, I do agree with Djeffrey that a NFL team in Toronto is maybe not the existential threat to the Argos that it once was. I mean, if AHL teams can exist alongside NHL teams in several Canadian cities now (Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal) then I don't think it's hard to imagine that a sympathetic NFL owner in Toronto could easily prop up the Argonauts. In some respects, the damage has already been done to that club and it could only get better.

More to the point, it doesn't take that much to sustain a CFL team... average attendance of 10,000 paid x 10 games at an average of $50 a ticket is a $5,000,000 gate which basically covers your player payroll. TV money, sponsorships and other revenue cover the rest. This is why MLSE isn't in any kind of panic mode... Tanenbaum alone could cover any annual shortfall with the cash that falls under the driver's seat of his car.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

But yes, I do agree with Djeffrey that a NFL team in Toronto is maybe not the existential threat to the Argos that it once was. I mean, if AHL teams can exist alongside NHL teams in several Canadian cities now (Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal) then I don't think it's hard to imagine that a sympathetic NFL owner in Toronto could easily prop up the Argonauts. In some respects, the damage has already been done to that club and it could only get better.

This would imply NFL ownership of the Argos and/or the CFL, no? I'm under the impression that this is a non-starter for most.

The NFL won't be in Toronto any time soon but I can't envision a scenario where there's an NFL team and the Argonauts sharing the same market. Either or, i'd think.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This would imply NFL ownership of the Argos and/or the CFL, no? I'm under the impression that this is a non-starter for most.

The NFL won't be in Toronto any time soon but I can't envision a scenario where there's an NFL team and the Argonauts sharing the same market. Either or, i'd think.

Why? Who would object if, say, MLSE somehow got its hands on a NFL team?

The CFL couldn't say no even if it wanted to because that would quite possibly kill the Argos. The NFL probably wouldn't say no because it probably wouldn't make any difference to their league.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Why? Who would object if, say, MLSE somehow got its hands on a NFL team?

The CFL couldn't say no even if it wanted to because that would quite possibly kill the Argos. The NFL probably wouldn't say no because it probably wouldn't make any difference to their league.

I was speaking more to fans and supporters of the league than the league executive itself. The CFL is powerless on any decision the NFL makes.

[JHikka]

The plan to reveal the renders for the new soccer stadium in Saskatoon has been delayed due to uncertain COVID protocols and restrictions. New date TBD.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I was speaking more to fans and supporters of the league than the league executive itself. The CFL is powerless on any decision the NFL makes.

If the team keeps chugging along and playing as it always has, I'm not sure why the fans would get upset about the other business activities of the owners. Besides, what is the alternative here?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfo...ntre-1.6226717

The operators of the team, Deacon S&E, are accused of 'disrespectful workplace conduct' by city staff and employees of St. John's S&E, the arena operator, so pending an investigation the Growlers have been booted from the arena. The situation is tenuous enough that the Growlers owner has said that the team will be moving elsewhere outside of the city of St. John's and plans to eventually build the team an arena.

Through all of this it's my personal opinion that SJSE is incredibly toxic and unable to do anything competent, but we'll see how things shake out.

Who else if not them is going to play in that arena in St John's? Isn't it their only permanent, regular tenant?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Who else if not them is going to play in that arena in St John's? Isn't it their only permanent, regular tenant?

The American Basketball Association team (Rogues) is still planning on playing in the arena, for whatever that might be worth.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Ha. Yes. The CHL could be our equivalent to NCAA sports but instead it gets shunted off to some dark closet where the national media outlets ignore it completely except for a few days a year around the NHL draft, the World Juniors and maybe the Memorial Cup (and only the latter results on any focus on the league itself as opposed to individual players).
.

I had hopes that things were modestly moving in that direction in the late 90s and early 2000s, but then the bottom totally fell out of that trend, and everyone with any power to make it happen abandoned ship.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I had hopes that things were modestly moving in that direction in the late 90s and early 2000s, but then the bottom totally fell out of that trend, and everyone with any power to make it happen abandoned ship.

I have to admit that I have only become invested in it since a team came to Winnipeg in 2019, but even before that I found it odd that SportsCentre wouldn't at least do a rundown of the scores or whatever. You know, maybe cut Darren Dreger's 10 minute analysis of Leafs trade rumours by 30 seconds so they could squeeze in the junior scores.

I agree, it did feel like it was gaining a bit of prominence for a while but it has since slipped a bit. In these parts Calgary and Edmonton don't draw as well as they used to, and Vancouver has moved right out of the city into deep suburbia.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I agree, it did feel like it was gaining a bit of prominence for a while but it has since slipped a bit. In these parts Calgary and Edmonton don't draw as well as they used to, and Vancouver has moved right out of the city into deep suburbia.

I was reading something recently about the popuarity of USports football programs as they related to CFL markets (IE, the most supported USports programs for football were located in markets that didn't have CFL teams) and the same can essentially be said for CHL teams vis-a-vis NHL teams. Think of all of the strongest, most supported CHL teams and they're not in NHL markets - London, Halifax, Kitchener, Quebec City, Kelowna, Kamloops. You'd think there would naturally be enough hockey fans in our major cities but all of that support is soaked up by NHL teams. Once you remove major markets like Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver, it's a tough sell for broadcasters and advertisers. With all do respect to Oshawa, Blainville, and Langley, none of these places are in the major cities.

I agree that the CHL should probably get better coverage and more support from broadcasters but it's a chicken and egg scenario, same as it is for USports and to a lesser degree the CFL. If nobody cares about the product, relatively-speaking, then what's the point in covering it? What's the point in covering it if nobody cares about the product? etc. etc. We can dislike Leafs coverage as much as we like but we can't deny that they lead and garner the most views and clicks relative to any other team in this country.

It's clear that TSN will be pushing CHL coverage and specific players to lead-in to its U20s and NHL Draft coverage, which of course makes sense, but for the rest of the games they can only show Prince George and Rimouski nationally so many times for audience capture.

It may be hindsight, but I recall TSN doing nightly highlights for when Crosby was playing in Rimouski, and (I haven't been doing much watching recently) i'm fairly certain they did that for McDavid in Erie and are doing it now for Wright in Kingston. I don't really expect them to show highlights of every CHL game (there's a lot of them!) but the occasional one or two is fine.

[esquire]

I wouldn't expect a nightly highlight package for the CHL, but I mean, maybe one 30-second highlight reel from the game of the night (either with top teams, or top prospects or whatever) plus 30 seconds of scrolling through the scores shouldn't be asking too much.

As far as interest goes, I have to dispute the idea that nobody cares... I mean, this is from just before the pandemic in the 2019-20 season:



Several Canadian teams drawing thousands of fans a night. These aren't even peak numbers, if you went back a few years they would be even higher.

I can't tell TSN/SN what to do, but their approach does speak to a big difference between the Canadian and American mentality with this stuff. In the US, the fact that the NCAA isn't necessarily a huge deal in NYC and other big eastern cities that have long histories of pro teams doesn't stop the media from covering it and making something of it. But in Canada, no interest in Toronto and Montreal means no interest from national broadcasters.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wouldn't expect a nightly highlight package for the CHL, but I mean, maybe one 30-second highlight reel from the game of the night (either with top teams, or top prospects or whatever) plus 30 seconds of scrolling through the scores shouldn't be asking too much.

Surely this is what they're doing now that TSN actually has a weekly game, no?

Originally Posted by esquire

As far as interest goes, I have to dispute the idea that nobody cares... I mean, this is from just before the pandemic in the 2019-20 season:

Several Canadian teams drawing thousands of fans a night. These aren't even peak numbers, if you went back a few years they would be even higher.

That's great, but half of the top teams aren't even located in Canada and the top two are in NHL cities that are already covered by broadcasters via the NHL. I don't blame TSN or others for not wanting to cover Spokane & Everett.

Originally Posted by esquire

I can't tell TSN/SN what to do, but their approach does speak to a big difference between the Canadian and American mentality with this stuff. In the US, the fact that the NCAA isn't necessarily a huge deal in NYC and other big eastern cities that have long histories of pro teams doesn't stop the media from covering it and making something of it. But in Canada, no interest in Toronto and Montreal means no interest from national broadcasters.

This debate comes up on this forum, like, weekly, and it truly comes down to the rest of Canada outside of Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver not really amounting to very much by comparison in terms of media market sizes. Canada is not the US with multiple large-scale cities of varying sizes spread throughout - it's a country of a few big cities, some smaller ones, and then even smaller ones. What you're left with is a country with only a few broadcasters and only a few truly large media markets. Canada would only be comparable to the US if Vancouver was of equal size to Toronto and if the rest of the top ten doubled in size overnight. They haven't, and they won't, so we're left with only a handful of actually large representative media markets.

Like, you have to put yourself in the shoes of an exec in Toronto or Montreal. If you're not covering those cities it means you're covering a smaller market and neglecting the larger market. I don't think Canadians outside of the major markets actually totally understand just how much larger these markets are than the rest of the country. Like, what, the Toronto-Hamilton media market is....six times the size of Ottawa-Gatineau? Seven times? It's no wonder they focus on the larger markets for total audience capture.

[Acajack]

In sheer numbers, more Canadians still attend CHL games in person than any other sports league operating in the country. By a longshot I believe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

That's great, but half of the top teams aren't even located in Canada and the top two are in NHL cities that are already covered by broadcasters via the NHL. I don't blame TSN or others for not wanting to cover Spokane & Everett.

.

The fact that many of the best-supported WHL clubs are in the US is a good example of the difference in mindset that Esquire referred to - and in this sense at least the Americans have it right.

Those teams in Spokane, Everett, Portland, etc. play in a league that's from another country, from cities that the average person in those states has never heard of, and people still go out and support their teams well.

Why is that?

Partly because of civic loyalty but also because they know the product on the ice is good and they don't rely on the blessing of corporate bigwigs in ivory towers to tell them what's good or not.

If anything, if there were even more WHL clubs in the US it might be their fans who'd eventually bring the corporate bigwigs into line (like what's happened with NCAA), as opposed to the other way around like it is in Canada.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In sheer numbers, more Canadians still attend CHL games in person than any other sports league operating in the country. By a longshot I believe.

Not sure there's much value in comparing 52 CHL teams against seven NHL teams or one MLB/NBA team, especially when the price points vary wildly between the two.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Partly because of civic loyalty but also because they know the product on the ice is good and they don't rely on the blessing of corporate bigwigs in ivory towers to tell them what's good or not.

Ok? I'll keep it in mind that every time someone goes to a game in Baie-Comeau or Prince Rupert they're sticking it to the man in Toronto, or something, and not simply because it's the only hockey team or sports team in town.